Jesus is never mentioned in George Washington's diary.

Seems odd for a guy that was supposedly so deeply religious.

11/12/2007 8:06:18 AM

^ And how about John Adams? There's that little treaty he signed, the "Treaty of Peace and Friendship" signed in 1796.


Article 11

Quote :

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

11/12/2007 8:15:41 AM

Quote :

"If you're going to bitch, then move to a country that wasn't founded on Christian principals"

hate to burst your bubble but a lot of the founding fathers were NOT Christian. Products of the enlightenment many were proud atheists or unitarian.

11/12/2007 10:52:54 AM

also it's principles

11/12/2007 11:48:56 AM

Quote :

"I was always wondering why people had a problem with Christmas trees. They don't have anything to "Christmas" itself anyway. They are an extension of ancient secular or even pagan European "winter festival" customs. There is no "Christmas tree" in any religious text."

That's like saying the swastika doesn't have anything to do with Nazi Germany because the native Americans and a bunch of other cultures used it. Regardless of its roots the Christmas tree is a symbol of Christianity. This is 2007, not 200 B.C.

It's the time of year where a bunch of whiney fucks complain about traditions that have been a part of this country since its inception and then go home to get a bunch of presents they don't deserve.

11/12/2007 2:24:01 PM

Feds ban grandma's angel ornament on Christmas tree

Quote :

"Federal Department of Housing and Urban Development officials have announced a ban on any decorations in HUD housing complexes that mention Jesus or represent religion for the Christmas season, and the American Family Association has responded with a petition drive to overturn the decision. The AFA has set up a link to allow constituents to send e-mails to the HUD secretary or President Bush expressing their objections to the policy. The issue arose at the Plant City Living Center in Plant City, Fla., where 85-year-old Mrs. Arnold was told that federal law now prohibits her from displaying anything that references religion – words, decorations and the like – in the common area of her apartment building, a HUD facility. The grandmother told AFA she was instructed that even an angel decoration would be disallowed by the ban, which makes her think of the restrictions in Germany during World War II. According to the center, HUD has issued a directive banning 'any religious symbols or religious words associated with Christmas,' which effectively prevents Mrs. Arnold from placing a small Christmas tree outside her door if it contains any religious symbols or words – 'even an angel,' AFA said in a special alert asking for e-mails. A spokeswoman at the center who preferred not to give her name told WND the rules now prevent displays 'like a manger, like a Christ child, any religious symbols.' 'We used to have a sign outside that said, "Jesus is the reason for the season," but we can't anymore,' she told WND. 'We're all very unhappy about that.' The building has about 40 one-bedroom apartments for seniors who are at least 62 years old."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1923252/posts

Un-fucking-believable!

11/12/2007 3:50:25 PM

i wouldn't exactly call that a reliable news source

11/12/2007 3:56:56 PM

^ I don't care what you think about the source. Either go on record as claiming the story is untrue of STFU.

11/12/2007 4:04:53 PM

My apartment has restrictions on what I can put outside.

Maybe I should sue for religious persecution.

11/12/2007 4:11:28 PM

^ You seem like the litigious type. They don't ban items specifically because they are religious, though, do they? Nice try.

11/12/2007 4:33:05 PM

A poor excuse for picking a man's pocket every twenty-fifth of december!

11/12/2007 4:35:29 PM

http://www.afa.net/pdfs/fairhousing.pdf

After reading the actual memo, I'm having a hard time getting upset over this.

Residents are free to do whatever they want with interiors of their apartments and the exterior of their door. Everywhere else is limited to secular decorations including "Christmas Trees, Hanukah Menorahs, Santa Claus', Season's Greetings, snowmen, and wreaths".

11/12/2007 4:37:50 PM

Quote :

"the Christmas tree is a symbol of Christianity"

no...a Christmas tree is a symbol of Christmas, same as Frosty the Snowman, however if you want to make it an issue that a fictional talking creature made of frozen water, stones, a carrot, and a corncob pipe is a symbol of your religion....well, have at it then.

11/12/2007 4:40:38 PM

^^^ Scrooge!

11/12/2007 4:41:39 PM

Quote :

"story is untrue of STFU"

You just pwnt yourself.

btw i do not see a problem with regulations put on what people can put on the exteriors of their project house especially when u consider the fact that taxpayers are subsidizing their rent anyway.

11/12/2007 4:44:57 PM

Quote :

"^ I don't care what you think about the source. Either go on record as claiming the story is untrue of or STFU."

1. Are you prepared to claim that the story's false? Yes or no?

2. You're okay with these "regulations" including religious items?


[Edited on November 12, 2007 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2007 4:48:29 PM

Why did you change your smiley?

[Edited on November 12, 2007 at 4:56 PM. Reason : ]

11/12/2007 4:52:44 PM

^ Try focusing on substance over style for a change. Answer the questions.

11/12/2007 4:54:12 PM

Quote :

"Try focusing on substance over style for a change"

That's funny coming from you.

But no, I don't have a problem with the public areas of a government owned building being required to use only secular decorations.

11/12/2007 4:59:24 PM

Quote :

"no...a Christmas tree is a symbol of Christmas, same as Frosty the Snowman, however if you want to make it an issue that a fictional talking creature made of frozen water, stones, a carrot, and a corncob pipe is a symbol of your religion....well, have at it then."

You're grasping, but I'll break it down...
Christmas tree = symbol of Christmas.
Christmas = Christian holiday.
Need I say more?

And Frosty the Snowman never has and never will have anything to do with Christmas. You must have smoked yourself retarded to try to make that connection.

11/12/2007 5:02:36 PM

Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled that Christmas trees and Menorahs are secular symbols.

11/12/2007 5:03:49 PM

^^^ And that's the fucking problem, dummy. What about that little old lady's rights and the rights of others that just happen to be poor and live in HUD housing? Any other time you'd be jumping up and down howling, "Look at me! I'm better than you because I care more! I'm championing the rights of the poor--unless poor Granny's beliefs conflict with my own!"

[Edited on November 12, 2007 at 5:04 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2007 5:03:53 PM

What about her rights? How have her rights been violated?

She is free to put religious decorations anywhere she wants in her apartment. She can even put them on the outside of her door, where they are viewable by the general public.

What rights have been violated? How have they been violated?

11/12/2007 5:07:58 PM

^ Unlike you, HUD officials (1) realized that they were wrong and (2) admitted it:

Feds relent, angel ornament to be allowed
'Newsletter regarding decoration policies has been rescinded'

Quote :

"Federal officials who earlier banned 'holiday' ornaments bearing a representation of the Nativity, Jesus, an angel or other religious symbols have relented, allowing a grandma in a Florida senior living center to enjoy an angel atop the facility's Christmas tree. 'I am pleased to report that the Plant City Living Center's recent newsletter regarding holiday decoration policies has been rescinded,' said a statement issued by a spokesman concerning the issue at the federal Department of Housing and Urban Development facility. 'The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) guarantees the rights of citizens to display religious symbols in public. We support that guarantee,' the statement added [emphasis added]. 'I want to take this opportunity to reiterate to you … that Plant City Living Center respects the religious beliefs of all of its residents. In furtherance of that policy, Plant City Living Center allows residents to decorate their apartments and the exterior areas of their apartments in any manner they choose,' the statement said."

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58619

11/12/2007 5:54:38 PM

Quote :

"rights of citizens to display religious symbols in public"

The original memo never refused this right.

Quote :

"Plant City Living Center allows residents to decorate their apartments and the exterior areas of their apartments in any manner they choose,"

The original memo also allowed this:



So, really HUD's recantation is more of a restatement.

I find it interesting that the articles you linked all failed to mention that the memo also specifically mentions the Star of David. I guess mentioning that wouldn't be keeping with the 'War on Christmas'.

11/12/2007 6:14:17 PM

^ Older people are allowed to have an angel atop their Christmas tree in a common area, which happens to be outside their apartments. If you'll take the time to notice the distinction, this is entirely different from only being allowed to decorate their apartment doors.

If HUD had simply issued a "restatement," as you put it, the policy wouldn't have been "rescinded," which is the exact word used by the HUD official who issued the statement at issue.

Quote :

"'I am pleased to report that the Plant City Living Center's recent newsletter regarding holiday decoration policies has been rescinded [emphasis added],' said a statement issued by a spokesman concerning the issue at the federal Department of Housing and Urban Development facility."

You can read, yes?

11/12/2007 6:52:53 PM

What if another resident wants the Flying Spaghetti Monster on top of the communal Christmas tree?

Quote :

"Older people"

What does their age have to do with anything? Oh, that's right...to make this sound like some horrible injustice.

[Edited on November 12, 2007 at 7:00 PM. Reason : ]

11/12/2007 6:59:10 PM

^ The good people at HUD are apparently okay with a "Flying Spaghetti Monster"--as long as it is unrelated to a religion.

Since you obviously didn't read the report, the facility houses low-income older people.

Quote :

"The building has about 40 one-bedroom apartments for seniors who are at least 62 years old."

And if you weren't such a fucking self-absorbed idiot, you'd realize that a lot of the folks in that center don't get out much. The little traditions and ceremonies that they have managed to carve out for themselves mean a lot to them--until some government bureaucrat and/or ACLU loon with your approach comes along and fucks it all up.

Quote :

"'A Sunday School class from a church near Mrs. Arnold's apartment comes every year to host a Hanging of the Greens and Christmas Party for all the residents. She said the highlight of their Christmas Party comes at the very end of The Hanging of the Greens when someone places the angel on top of their Christmas tree. Their tradition is now banned by the federal government,' the AFA said [emphasis added]."

STFU.

11/12/2007 7:13:09 PM

Quote :

"with your approach"

Please, tell me. What do you think is my approach?

[Edited on November 12, 2007 at 7:33 PM. Reason : ]

11/12/2007 7:32:48 PM

Quote :

""The building has about 40 one-bedroom apartments for seniors who are at least 62 years old.""

and you'll be joining them alot sooner then the rest of us

11/12/2007 7:34:23 PM

Out of those 40, worldnetdaily could find only one that was upset enough to make a comment.

11/12/2007 7:35:53 PM

Quote :

"And Frosty the Snowman never has and never will have anything to do with Christmas."

I guess times have changed. When I was a kid the only time you would see Frosty the Snowman was during Christmas. I guess they are just showing it on random winter days now?

11/13/2007 8:43:41 AM

^nah. I guess it really is associated with Christmas after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frosty_the_Snowman

11/13/2007 9:25:21 AM

Quote :

"Like Jingle Bells and several other songs about winter, Frosty the Snowman is considered to be a Christmas song despite not mentioning Christmas at all."

aha

11/13/2007 9:40:46 AM

Quote :

"yes, there are parallels, but Christmas is fundamentally to celebrate the birth of Christ. Christ's Mass."

actually Christmas is no where near the actual time that Christ was born

11/13/2007 11:29:59 AM

I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong with a secular government.

11/13/2007 12:51:12 PM

Yeah really. Why won't the government just let people hang up their Christmas decorations already?

11/13/2007 1:08:04 PM

FWIW, Home Depot is going back to "Christmas" in their ads this year

11/13/2007 1:11:53 PM

Ho-ho-no: McDermott votes against Christmas
Congressman backed Ramadan, Diwali

Quote :

"Maybe you could call him Congressman McGrinch. Rep. Jim McDermott supported House resolutions this fall to recognize the Islamic holiday of Ramadan and the festival of Diwali, celebrated by Hindus, Sikhs and Jains. But the Washington Democrat drew the line at Christmas. McDermott voted Tuesday against a resolution to recognize the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith. The resolution, sponsored by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa, passed 372-9. Democrats cast all the nay votes [emphasis added]. McDermott, revered by many of his liberal constituents in Seattle, could not be reached for comment Wednesday night. A staff member in his Seattle office said that 'if you know the congressman, you'd know why' he opposed the resolution. Neither the Ramadan nor the Diwali resolutions drew any opposition. No one spoke against the Christmas resolution -- which stated that Christianity was the predominant faith in the U.S. and contributed greatly to the development of Western civilization and America -- leading King to draw his own conclusion. 'I think there's an anti-Christian bias,' King said. 'I would not have thought that five or 10 years ago that we'd need to make a statement (affirming Christmas and Christianity). I've watched Christ be eradicated by ACLU lawsuits and people be afraid of confrontations. They wish (people) "happy holidays" but not "Merry Christmas" because they might be offended.' Ten representatives -- nine Democrats and one Republican -- voted 'present' on King's resolution, meaning they did not take a position. Forty representatives did not vote, including Rep. Norm Dicks, D-Wash. Dicks, chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, missed the vote. Dicks was engaged in a heated discussion on spending in the committee's nearby offices, chief of staff George Behan said. Dicks had 'no reason to vote against' the resolution, which paled in importance 'as we're trying to pass the appropriations bill to fund the entire federal government,' Behan said. King missed the vote, too, after being stranded by an ice storm in Iowa, but said his point was made. 'The people who voted "no" and voted "present" will also take Christmas Day off, and so will their staff,' King said. 'They'll take a paycheck while they deny the very reason for the day they do not have to work' [emphasis added]. Excerpts from three recent House resolutions regarding religious observances: RAMADAN HR 635: 'Acknowledges the onset of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting and spiritual renewal, and conveys its respect to Muslims in the United States and throughout the world on this occasion.' Approved 376-0 DIWALI HR 747: 'Acknowledges the onset of Diwali and expresses its deepest respect to Indian Americans and the Indian Diaspora throughout the world on this significant occasion.' Approved 358-0 CHRISTMAS HR 847: 'Acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.' Approved 372-9"

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/343335_mcdermott13.html?source=mypi

Yeah, this whole "war on Christmas" thing has just been made up[/sarcasm].

[Edited on December 13, 2007 at 3:11 AM. Reason : .]

12/13/2007 3:10:48 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, this whole "war on Christmas" thing has just been made up[/sarcasm]. "

Yeah, it has. The article only affirms this.

12/13/2007 3:15:37 AM

^ Please enlighten us with your secular wisdom. How so?

12/13/2007 3:20:00 AM

First, it's not a "war" as the Christians like to say.

Clearly, the irreligious groups in the US are growing, as well as the non-Christians. So this mandates businesses to consider the demographics of their customers.
http://www.economist.com/daily/news/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10277230&top_story=1

Quote :

"According to figures compiled by the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), almost 30m people claimed “no religion” in 2001, a doubling from 1991. This dwarfs America’s 2.8m who describe themselves as Jews according to the same survey (although other estimates suggest that the Jewish population is much larger, at about 6m). Catholicism, the country’s largest Christian denomination, boasts 51m followers."

Basically, the amount of people who don't claim a religion is half of the people who claim to be Catholics, and likely more than many other denominations. And they're growing quickly. It's evolution.

A "war" implies a concerted malicious effort on some groups' part, where as the only single group you can blame for the diminishing of the sacred aspects of Christmas are the businesses, and this isn't for a malicious reason (unless you're against people making money). Realistically, as non-Christian sects grow in the US, the non-Christian elements of Christmas (which make up a majority of what Christmas is) will continue to grow with them. But, no war.

Quote :

"'I think there's an anti-Christian bias,' King said. 'I would not have thought that five or 10 years ago that we'd need to make a statement (affirming Christmas and Christianity). I've watched Christ be eradicated by ACLU lawsuits and people be afraid of confrontations. They wish (people) "happy holidays" but not "Merry Christmas" because they might be offended.'"

Really, all the statements that Congress makes to "affirm" things are idiotic wastes of time, IMO. If any of the 40 non-voters or 10 people against this voted or not-voted for the reason that its a waste of time, i'm with them. But, the only people that wish people happy holidays are businesses, and that's because they actually CAN offend people otherwise. But, not a single person in the US is not free to wish whoever the hell they want a merry Christmas on their own, or to put gigantic signs on their car/home/boat with such a sentiment. I don't even think gov. institutions are banned from this, unless there is some group that can/has complained, which is their right considering the constitution.

Quote :

"'The people who voted "no" and voted "present" will also take Christmas Day off, and so will their staff,' King said. 'They'll take a paycheck while they deny the very reason for the day they do not have to work'"

Just because someone voted against this affirmation doesn't mean they hate Christmas at all. I bet none of them hate Christmas, and they all love it (as much as one can love CHristmas).

Quote :

"Dicks had 'no reason to vote against' the resolution, which paled in importance 'as we're trying to pass the appropriations bill to fund the entire federal government,' Behan said. "

Had it right.

Quote :

"RAMADAN HR 635: 'Acknowledges the onset of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting and spiritual renewal, and conveys its respect to Muslims in the United States and throughout the world on this occasion.' Approved 376-0 DIWALI HR 747: 'Acknowledges the onset of Diwali and expresses its deepest respect to Indian Americans and the Indian Diaspora throughout the world on this significant occasion.' Approved 358-0 CHRISTMAS HR 847: 'Acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.' Approved 372-9""

Do you think if the other referendums had said "Acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Ramadan and the Islam faith" that everyone still would have voted for it? Would this have meant that there is a "war on Islam"?

12/13/2007 3:42:17 AM

^

Quote :

"It's evolution."

moron

So religious people are devolving?

Both of the other resolutions actually had the word "respect" in them--please note well that the Christmas resolution had no such wording. If you were to be candid--for once--you would have no choice but to admit that the Christmas resolution should have been even easier for anyone to accept because of its language.

And my question to you has been answered--yet again:

Quote :

"And is it possible for you to just make a post without asking a question?"

hooksaw



[Edited on December 13, 2007 at 4:25 AM. Reason : .]

12/13/2007 4:23:25 AM

Quote :

""It's evolution." moron So religious people are devolving? "

Ha, no. Do you not know what evolution is?

When sapiens split from erectus, that didn't mean erectus "devolved" (i don't think from a strict biological standpoint, there even IS such a thing as "devolving"), it means they went their separate ways. At worst, I would have been implying they are less fit for survival, and as long as they cling to regressive ideas, I would agree with that. But in this case, it's just an issue of $$$ I think.

Quote :

"Both of the other resolutions actually had the word "respect" in them--please note well that the Christmas resolution had no such wording. If you were to be candid--for once--you would have no choice but to admit that the Christmas resolution should have been even easier for anyone to accept because of its language. "

I don't think that's the case. The way I see it, the politicians couldn't vote against the Hindu/Islam one, and it was worded to make it easier to vote for, because in a time when it seems like America is pissing on other countries and other religions, Congress was making an empty attempt at seeming impartial to other cultures.

This Christmas referendum though was specifically designed to provide a story for the media and certain elements of the right to latch on to, and really to be divisive. Christmas/Christianity is our "home turf" and doesn't really need affirming in the same way Islam/Hinduism would. We can speak more critically about it, because its what we know best.

It's kind of like how you might fart/curse/whatever around your family or best friends, but not in front of a stranger, even though the stranger does the same things.

We always complain about how mindless the media and politicians are, and when we play in to their games, like this whole Christmas referendum, we become an agent of the mindlessness. The referendum wasn't created to actually affirm the spirit of Christmas or Christianity, it was created for political gain and divisiveness, which is clearly against the spirit of Christmas.

Merry Christmas, hooksaw

12/13/2007 4:36:10 AM

devolve:

Quote :

"To degenerate or deteriorate gradually: After several hours the discussion had devolved into a shouting match."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devolve

I can't be held responsible for your lack of knowledge concerning definitions. You made no mention in the post at issue of "evolution," which has a number of definitions, being used "from a strict biological standpoint." Perhaps you should be clearer in your wording.

In any event, Merry Christmas to you, too, moron.

12/13/2007 4:51:44 AM

I was using evolution in the sense it is understood in biology. I'm sorry for not explicitly stating this

Also, even if you misunderstood this aspect of my post, I still wasn't implying that Christmas was "degenerating" or "deteriorating," both words which imply a failure due to malady or neglect. Christmas isn't systemically broken, nor is it being neglecting. It is just adjusting to changes in society.

For example, you are different now than when you were a baby, but your baby self didn't devolve or deteriorate, your body changed over them (a general definition for evolution). Christmas is the same way. Many things are, actually.

12/13/2007 4:56:34 AM

^ This exchange has devolved.

12/13/2007 4:58:47 AM

My spelling has certainly devolved... but that's because it's 5AM now

12/13/2007 4:59:48 AM

^ Me, too. I shall retire for the evening. Good night, moron

12/13/2007 5:32:14 AM

I think there is an inverse correlation between religiousness and intelligence

12/13/2007 10:14:10 AM