Quote :

"Sputter:1) Illegal immigrants are coming here in droves and businesses which cannot afford to hire enough workers due to minimum wage being too high will hire them even if there is federal law requiring them to turn in these illegal workers."

Quote :

"Sputter: Although, by and large they are making more than minimum wage as that is what the market dictates."

Thanks for the backpedal. What's next on the list of bullshit reasons people hate illegals? Perhaps someone would like to assert that illegals are causing unemployment?

2/17/2008 10:30:58 PM

i would like to seem some statistics that illegals are tukking the jerbs

2/18/2008 8:54:40 AM

^^ Why don't you try to stop being so hateful. It wasn't any sort of backpedal at all. My 1) was reducing statements made by others throughout the thread concerning illegal aliens and business hiring practices into a single idea. It's called sythensizing and I am sure that you have at least heard of it.

A lot of illegal aliens are paid under minimum wage, a lot aren't. You claimed that no illegal aliens were paid less than minimum wage, or at least you implied that with your sarcastic and nearly unintelligible post. I provided media reports that they were and you began to cry.

I have never indicated anywhere that I hated illegals.

You seem to be fairly unreasonable and since you can't seem to handle information that is unacceptable to your argument then what we have here is a place for you to act angry until people agree with you. In fact, that is why I generally stay out of the Soap Box because there is no debate. It's generally hard-headed, hard-core people on both sides of the political spectrum calling each other idiots as you are so prone to do.



[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 9:35 AM. Reason : adsgrf]

2/18/2008 9:28:28 AM

Thanks for the 300 words on why you backpedaled, chief.

2/18/2008 7:45:38 PM

Thanks for the totally incorrect comment and more sarcasm there chief.

[Edited on February 18, 2008 at 7:51 PM. Reason : it's sad how poor your reading comprehension is]

2/18/2008 7:49:34 PM

I understood what you wrote. I just disregarded all the whining and synthesized it. I'm sure you have at least heard of it.

2/18/2008 8:00:25 PM

It's funny that one of the whiniest little bitches on this web site even tries to point his finger at anyone else.

There is nothing but facts in my posts.

2/18/2008 10:10:55 PM

The best you could come up with was "I know you are but what am I"

Quote :

"There is nothing but facts in my posts."

2/18/2008 10:42:01 PM

Quote :

" I provided media reports that they were and you began to cry. 2/18/2008 9:28:28 AM "

Quote :

"I just disregarded all the whining and synthesized it. I'm sure you have at least heard of it. 2/18/2008 8:00:25 "

Quote :

"The best you could come up with was "I know you are but what am I" 2/18/2008 10:42:01 PM "

pathetic

2/18/2008 11:04:27 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024/

4/11/2008 1:10:35 PM

How do people like Al Gore expect us to cut greenhouse gas emissions if our population keeps rising exponentially?

4/11/2008 1:25:44 PM

In a 6-to-3 Vote, Justices Uphold a Voter ID Law

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/washington/29scotus.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

4/29/2008 1:42:32 PM

DEY TUK ERRR JERBS.

maybe if americans would actually turn of american idol 15 ; actually putting forth ambition to get a better education then perhaps we wouldn't be importing half of india and china for all the engineering as well as other technical jobs employers can seem to fill solely from the US labor pool.

4/29/2008 1:54:05 PM

^ WTF?!

4/29/2008 2:44:19 PM

bttt by request

7/31/2008 10:17:14 AM

So I had an rather obtuse thought this morning about illegal immigration.

Had this been in control all along, would housing in this country gotten as out of control as it did?

Would this have acted as some sort of checked to all the money flowing into housing from the iBanks?

7/31/2008 10:22:30 AM

I chalked the housing thing up to:
Very low interest rates.

More people wanting to buy a house because of the low interest rates, and said people getting in over their heads.

The people making the loans didn't care one way or the other if the people applying for the loan could make the payments because they got a commission for every loan they made, also giving out loans for amounts well beyond what the income of the people trying to get a loan dictated.

People "flipping" houses where they just did some slight remodeling and resold for a large profit - artificially inflating the price of homes well beyond the actual market value

etc.

I suppose we can blame illegals. They build a lot of those houses.

[Edited on July 31, 2008 at 11:56 AM. Reason : -]

7/31/2008 11:53:39 AM

I knew someone would use the 'b' word. That's not what I was implying. I'd like to use the word "enabler". Just like the low interest rates and shady lending practices were enablers of this mess, was the cheap labor also an enabler? And without it, would that have been a natural limiter on this mess or not?

[Edited on July 31, 2008 at 11:58 AM. Reason : a]

7/31/2008 11:57:52 AM

Apparently, the recession (that we're not actually in) is causing illegal immigrants to go back home. By some estimates, a million or so have left recently.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/31/us/31immig.html?em&ex=1217649600&en=994c7dae80a305c9&ei=5087%0A

Quote :

" The number of illegal immigrants in the country has dropped by as much as 1.3 million in the past year, an 11 percent decline since a historic peak last August, an immigration research group in Washington said in a report released Wednesday. ... The report, by Steven A. Camarota and Karen Jensenius of the Center for Immigration Studies, found “strong indications” that stepped-up enforcement by immigration authorities had played a major role in the decline. ... The study’s methods and conclusions were questioned by other demographers and economists, who said the decline might be less than the center reported and was more likely the result of the weak economy, especially in low-wage construction and manufacturing where illegal immigrants are generally employed. "

7/31/2008 8:22:35 PM

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/100/story/144578.html

Quote :

" Only one illegal immigrant in Charlotte turned himself in for deportation for “Operation Scheduled Departure,” federal immigration officials said today. The federal government ends the controversial program today, urging fugitive illegal immigrants to turn themselves in after a three-week pilot program only produced eight volunteers nationwide. "

shocking this didn't work! it sounded like such a good idea!!1

8/22/2008 4:52:12 PM

^ I saw that on Fox News last night and lol'd all over myself

8/22/2008 11:16:00 PM

^^^Nice to see they're such opportunists; pretty much negates the whole argument that they come here to "escape persecution," among all the other bullshit arguments bandied about by the pro-illegal groups.

Quote :

"DEY TUK ERRR JERBS. maybe if americans would actually turn of american idol 15 ; actually putting forth ambition to get a better education then perhaps we wouldn't be importing half of india and china for all the engineering as well as other technical jobs employers can seem to fill solely from the US labor pool."

I agree with you there. I wish we had more immigration from India and China, but less from Mexico/Central America. The majority of them bring hard-working ethics and strong values. The majority of illegals, however, are unskilled laborers who never make an effort to learn English or integrate with society, and expect government handouts. Perhaps they do jobs that Americans won't do, but I think they take a lot of jobs that Americans would do (and not just picking crops for $50/hr, which McCain said once). I tried getting a summer job doing road construction once for $12/hr, but was told confidentially that I couldn't be hired because my Spanish wasn't good enough to communicate with most of the other employees on the job.

[Edited on August 29, 2008 at 12:17 AM. Reason : added quote/comment]

8/29/2008 12:03:54 AM

Quote :

"The majority of illegals, however, are unskilled laborers who never make an effort to learn English or integrate with society, and expect government handouts."

I doubt any of that's true. Considering they kind of jobs they work, it's difficult for migrants to become skilled in English. This doesn't mean they don't want to learn. The Mexican immigrants I've heard from absolutely do.

As for government handouts, that's a myth:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010116

8/29/2008 1:19:30 AM

Quote :

"it's difficult for migrants to become skilled in English"

funny how all the other migrants chinesse, german, italian, and even african did not have much trouble figuring out english from the 17th century foward.

8/29/2008 4:37:44 PM

^ What? As far as I know, they retained their native tongues for a while. Do you think all the first-generation Italian immigrants become fluent? I doubt it. I don't think it's much different now. In fact, linguists tell me current immigrants are learning English more quickly than any historical group.

8/29/2008 11:07:12 PM

Quote :

"Was that a rhetorical question? I have to assume that you are referring to yourself. NC is one of the more problematic states for low wages and near slave like conditions for immigrant workers on farms. There is an entire branch of legal aid dedicated solely to protecting these people. "

someone probably already pointed this out. and i'm not trying to be picky but this is kind of important because i think a lot of people are confused by it. but immigrant workers on farms are migrant workers. migrant workers are SUPPOSED to be legal labor. they are here on temporary work visas. i'm sure that there are plenty of undocumented workers considering that yes, NC has pretty dismal conditions for migrant workers so i don't think the farmers treating legal labor this way really care if they have an undocumented worker. regardless, migrant workers suffer terrible conditions. and i don't think a lot of people realize this is a LEGAL form of labor. plus, when you look at farmworkers and then gripe about immigrants taking away jobs of americans...i don't see people lining up to go pick tobacco and cotton by hand, in the heat, living in barrack style housing, for minimum wage. which unfortunately is why we have migrant workers who pick tobacco and cotton by hand, in the heat, for less than minimum wage, and often without beds or toilets, etc.

but the point being...don't get confused. i don't want people's panties to get in a wad because a lot of legal projects (and other social projects) exist with the goal of helping mistreated migrant workers. who are here (in theory) with work visas.

Quote :

"The majority of illegals, however, are unskilled laborers who never make an effort to learn English or integrate with society, and expect government handouts"

and this statement is just beyond ridiculous. did you even read what you wrote? majority? HAHAHA where are you getting your fantastic statistics? yea it is really easy to learn english when people like you are giving immigrants such the benefit of the doubt. have you volunteered to tutor illegal immigrants recently and no one took you up on your offer? how about the immigrants who send their kids to schools and their kids DO make an effort, but then are kept out of colleges because in america, the land of opportunity, we like to attempt to pass laws to keep immigrant children out of higher education (we wouldn't want them STEALING the opportunity of citizens) so that they suffer the same fate as their parents. unskilled laborers in poverty-line jobs.

does this sound familiar to anyone? hold on...someone is calling...oh, its karl marx.

[Edited on August 31, 2008 at 4:29 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2008 4:24:01 PM

^ well, considering that their children usually have as much of a right to be here as they do (read:none), then I see no probably whatsoever denying them the ability to use the facilities designed and paid for by the American taxpayer. I know, call me crazy, but, yeah. Won't some PLEASE think of the CRIMINALS!!!

8/31/2008 4:37:44 PM

do you really think 3 year olds getting dragged across the border have a huge say in where they go?


ps - people use NCSU everyday who are from out of state. but wait, isn't it funded with NC taxpayer money? oh noes. i think we have a solution for that. what is it what is it??? oh yeah...they pay OUT OF STATE tuition

[Edited on August 31, 2008 at 4:52 PM. Reason : .]

8/31/2008 4:50:49 PM

nope. doesn't make them any less illegal. When they reach the age of enlightenment, then they are just as culpable as their parents, though. And I'd say such an age comes well before college.

8/31/2008 4:52:32 PM

yes children are just as culpable as adults. all those damn 16 and 17 year olds should just leave their illegal families and make the dangerous journey back on no money.

GOOD PLAN.

8/31/2008 4:58:00 PM

I'm just saying. Are they CRIMINALS who BROKE THE LAW or are they not? Answer that question. You won't, though, because libbies rarely care about laws, except when it benefits them. They'd much rather cry about how life isn't fair and people shouldn't have to actually earn things fair and square.

8/31/2008 4:59:19 PM

oh i didn't know you were actually answering that question.

i guess it is a hard question to answer considering you don't want to give them the benefits of citizenship yet you expect them to abide by our laws like a citizen??

and if we are speaking about the children whos parents brought them across the border, i doubt anyone would consider a child, a victim of circumstance, a criminal

[Edited on August 31, 2008 at 5:10 PM. Reason : . ]

8/31/2008 5:09:37 PM

then no. you don't consider criminals to have committed a crime. At the moment the child knows he is here illegally, then he is a criminal. sorry, darling. If you want to deter illegals from coming here in the first place, you must let them know that even their children will suffer for their decision. That is, frankly, one of the things that must be done.

8/31/2008 5:15:23 PM

then no. you don't consider criminals to have committed a crime. At the moment the child knows he is here illegally, then he is a criminal. sorry, darling. If you want to deter illegals from coming here in the first place, you must let them know that even their children will suffer for their decision. That is, frankly, one of the things that must be done.

8/31/2008 5:15:23 PM

suffer? oh my god. not even republicans (actual republicans, not the ones whos ethics and morals have become so misconstrued as to leave their commitment to american ideals questionable) consider illegal immigrants as CRIMINALS.

Giuliani? What about McCain? Do you think that people would actually construct legislation proposing to allow CRIMINALS to stay in the country freely? No, probably not.

You would really advocate the persecution of CHILDREN? Are you republican? Because not even the leaders of your party are proposing that.

Second, the other fabulous fact of the matter is, we use the term illegal immigrants primarily for mexicans. What about other illegal immigrants? Shall we do the same to their children? Or is it just mexicans that we loathe? Sometimes i forget which race America is hating. It changes daily. You do realize that there are MANY different types of immigrants? You do also realize that some immigrants fall under the protection (whatever that may be) of international law? Most Mexican immigrants do not, as they are economic immigrants. But they are still not criminals. What of the other immigrants? Or is "illegal immigrant" just another word for undesirables.

8/31/2008 5:21:52 PM

Quote :

"If you want to deter illegals from coming here in the first place, you must let them know that even their children will suffer for their decision."

Why in the world would anyone want that? And punishing children for sins of the father strikes me as a little too Biblical.

8/31/2008 5:35:01 PM

SERIOUSLY!!! and it would also make our country look horrible internationally. if you really care about America and aren't just being racist and looking for some way to internally cleanse the United States (we'll use immigration as our form of ethnic cleansing!) then you are bound to see that it seems SLIGHTLY hypocritical to speak of punishing children and innocent "CRIMINAL" immigrants severely while trying to promote freedom, democracy, and humanity world-wide.

8/31/2008 6:00:04 PM

Quote :

"and it would also make our country look horrible internationally."

lol, as opposed to how it looks now?? lolol

8/31/2008 6:07:36 PM

um yea punishing illegal immigrants as harshly as aaronburro purports will just illuminate hypocrisy. as i said in my previous post. it would be hard to reconcile our big bad world example setting image with unethical treatment of immigrants, especially children. DUH

i'm sorry, did i just wake up in the midst of the american fascist regime?

seriously.

8/31/2008 6:11:13 PM

i was being sarcastic...

8/31/2008 6:20:24 PM

i know!! i'm just mad at the idiocy of tww in general.

i didn't mean to take it out on you

8/31/2008 6:26:02 PM

Quote :

"not even republicans (actual republicans, not the ones whos ethics and morals have become so misconstrued as to leave their commitment to american ideals questionable) consider illegal immigrants as CRIMINALS."

clearly you aren't thinking, much less listening to people. There are laws that say you have to do certain things to be allowed in the country. If you don't do those things, then you are breaking the law. What do we call people who break the law? CRIMINALS.

Quote :

"Why in the world would anyone want that?"

Oh, I dunno, maybe to prevent our economic destruction through massive expenditures on welfare, SS, and free hospital care?

Quote :

"And punishing children for sins of the father strikes me as a little too Biblical."

Your point? Deterrence is what we are after here, not roses and chocolate.

Quote :

"Giuliani? What about McCain? Do you think that people would actually construct legislation proposing to allow CRIMINALS to stay in the country freely? No, probably not."

Nope. But they sure as hell would do it to get VOTES in an ELECTION YEAR. Durrrr.

Quote :

"You would really advocate the persecution of CHILDREN?"

Nope. I advocate the persecution of criminals who put their children in that situation. I know, THINK OF THE CRIMINALS!!!

Quote :

"Second, the other fabulous fact of the matter is, we use the term illegal immigrants primarily for mexicans."

Thanks for bringing out the race card. Really helps your argument. I guess when you can't win with logic and common sense, you just have to appeal to the old tried and true "call your opponent a racist" method.

Quote :

"innocent "CRIMINAL" immigrants"

Think about that statement for a second. is there such a thing as an "innocent criminal?" I think not.

Quote :

"... severely while trying to promote freedom, democracy, and humanity world-wide."

What does that have to do with the issue of illegal immigration? Or are you just trying to bring up more hippie-babble to try and make yourself sound better than you really are...

Quote :

"um yea punishing illegal immigrants as harshly as aaronburro purports will just illuminate hypocrisy. as i said in my previous post. it would be hard to reconcile our big bad world example setting image with unethical treatment of immigrants"

What's unethical about deterring people from coming here? Europe does it. Don't we want to be like Europe? We sure as hell try to do everything else like them, whether it's socialized health-care, gun control, or whatever. If being anti-immigrant is good enough for Europe, it ought to be good enough for us, right? Look, I'm not saying "let's cut their nuts off." I'm saying let's make them want to come here legally. Surely you have no problem with asking people to follow our laws in order to get into our country, do you? Or are you just the kind of guy that would let a guy break into your house, fuck your sister, grab some shit from the fridge while he's at it and then invite him to spend the night?

9/1/2008 3:48:39 AM

Quote :

"There are laws that say you have to do certain things to be allowed in the country. If you don't do those things, then you are breaking the law. What do we call people who break the law? CRIMINALS."

Why should we respect unjust laws? Mere humans created them.

Quote :

"Oh, I dunno, maybe to prevent our economic destruction through massive expenditures on welfare, SS, and free hospital care?"

That's a myth. Good grief. Free hospital care, maybe, but welfare and social security? Immigrants are actually strengthening social security. See the link I posted earlier.

Quote :

"Thanks for bringing out the race card. Really helps your argument."

Oh, I think it does. Aside from justified suggestion of racism, note that Mexicans have considerable Amerindian ancestry. This was once their continent. Now the same people who shattered their culture won't let them travel where they please.

Quote :

"What's unethical about deterring people from coming here?"

It's a gross affront to individual freedom.

9/1/2008 12:46:48 PM

Quote :

"Think about that statement for a second. is there such a thing as an "innocent criminal?" I think not. "

that's why i put criminal in quotes fucktard

the only reason they're "BREAKING" the law (like what...not paying taxes? what else are you referring to here) is because they aren't CITIZENS. do you not see the flawed logic behind your argument? you want illegal immigrants who get none of the benefits of citizenship to follow laws designed for citizens?

uhhh and as far as our economy being massively destroyed by immigration, you're right. how did america ever flourish without immigrants? and to be more to the point, do you know what would happen to say, a state like NC's economy without immigrants? good things, my friend, good things.

what is massively destroying our economy is outsourcing jobs to lower taxes. yayyy lower taxes. oh shit, now we have a ton of people without jobs. they're sick, they're hungry, whatever are we going to do?

and fine, make them come here legally everyone is for that. but what most people are referring to when they talk about illegal immigrants is the fact that there are MILLIONS ALREADY FUCKING HERE. you knew that, right? oh well...i guess you do now. you also know that deporting every last one of them isn't a viable option, correct? so the point of this topic then, is to discuss different proposals for what to do with the ones already here and how to cut down on illegal immigration in the future via border control OR persecuting the children of the people who reside in the country illegally (good plan, btw. deterrence often works. the death penalty is a good example of deterrence at work, so i guess i see your point).

and yes, i think it would make the U.S. look like fucking hypocrits when we're supposed to be a renound world leader yet we force and keep immigrants out of our country with harsh methods. i think just sitting up one day and deporting every single last illegal and punishing their children for being here and whatever other measures you deem "necessary" would seriously harm our reputation internationally. i know you don't give a shit about what other countries think of us. that is fine. but i a poor reputation can have serious implications as far as you know...interacting in the global economy is concerned.

and last, but not least, i know the U.S. was once down with xenophobia, but not everything comes back in style.

i'm not saying give them all a million dollars and throw them a welcoming parade. i'm saying, if you offer some sort of amnesty/temporary citizenship, etc etc then they WILL have the opportunity to become citizens and they WOULD contribute to things like social security via taxes etc etc and we won't have the massive economic destruction that you are so fearful of. i know, i shudder when i think of the fact that illegal immigrants could become citizens and actually pay their taxes like the rest of us. my my what a world we live in.

9/1/2008 2:50:20 PM

Quote :

"you want illegal immigrants who get none of the benefits of citizenship to follow laws designed for citizens? "

Oh, so then you would have no problem with them coming in and murdering you, right? i mean, laws against murder are meant for citizens. Tell me, genius, how exactly are our IMMIGRATION LAWS meant for CITIZENS? Does that make any sense to you? How exactly can a CITIZEN follow the naturalization process? Explain that to me.

Quote :

"you also know that deporting every last one of them isn't a viable option, correct?"

WHere did I say to do that? Strawman much? We don't have to hunt them down, by the way. Rather, when we find them, we send them home. It's really simple.

Quote :

"so the point of this topic then, is to discuss different proposals for what to do with the ones already here and how to cut down on illegal immigration in the future via border control"

Simple. Make them want to go home. Take away their ability to find jobs. Take away their handouts. Take away their free medical care.

Quote :

"(good plan, btw. deterrence often works. the death penalty is a good example of deterrence at work, so i guess i see your point)."

Dead criminals commit no more crimes, wouldn't you agree? But hey, that's another topic entirely.

Quote :

"and yes, i think it would make the U.S. look like fucking hypocrits when we're supposed to be a renound world leader yet we force and keep immigrants out of our country with harsh methods."

No, we're NOT keeping immigrants out of our country with "harsh methods." We're keeping ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS from wanting to come here with COMMON SENSE methods of doing so, namely, taking away the incentive to come here illegally.

Quote :

"i think just sitting up one day and deporting every single last illegal"

strawman. thanks.

Quote :

"punishing their children for being here"

children who have no right to be here, for that matter. If a parent doesn't think about the impact his decisions have on his children, then I can't be troubled to care about his children either.

Quote :

"whatever other measures you deem "necessary" would seriously harm our reputation internationally."

Right, since we'd be doing what EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES with respect to immigration. Cry me a fucking river.

Quote :

"and last, but not least, i know the U.S. was once down with xenophobia, but not everything comes back in style. "

thanks, again for the unsubstantiated race card. Really helping your point here. Oh, and if you want to see some racists, go to France. Or Germany. or China.

Quote :

"i'm saying, if you offer some sort of amnesty/temporary citizenship"

then you will encourage MORE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Did you fucking learn NOTHING from the amnesty given in the 1980s? Amnesty is the LAST THING you should offer.

Quote :

"then they WILL have the opportunity to become citizens and they WOULD contribute to things like social security via taxes etc etc and we won't have the massive economic destruction that you are so fearful of. "

Right. Millions of people now eligible for welfare and medicare and medicaid will generate a surplus of funds into our treasury. You can't honestly believe that, can you?

Quote :

"It's a gross affront to individual freedom."

No it's not. They are free to come here LEGALLY. nothing wrong with that.

Quote :

"That's a myth. Good grief. Free hospital care, maybe, but welfare and social security? Immigrants are actually strengthening social security. See the link I posted earlier. "

Your link only holds true for those being paid legitimately. And such a person is the exception, not the rule. Thus, your link is, how do you say, bullshit.

Quote :

"Why should we respect unjust laws? Mere humans created them."

Ok. I think the law that says I can't kill you is unjust, so I will now come to your house and kill you. I will then rape your wife/girlfriend, because I think that law is unjust, then I will take all of your shit, because laws against stealing are also unjust.

Calling a law "unjust" doesn't make it so. Asking that people respect our SOVEREIGNTY is hardly an unjust law. Asking someone to knock and be given permission to come in isn't unjust. Asking someone to use a different bathroom because of his skin color IS unjust. You only call this law "unjust" because it fits your agenda to do so.

9/1/2008 4:01:27 PM

Quote :

"Right. Millions of people now eligible for welfare and medicare and medicaid will generate a surplus of funds into our treasury. You can't honestly believe that, can you?"

Most illegal immigrants are young. They'll pay a lot into social security before they get anything out of it. Despite your protests, this is already happening.

Quote :

"As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

9/1/2008 4:07:04 PM

yes. they are young right now. And when they get old, guess what? They'll make the system even more broken. Still doesn't stop the fact that the average immigrant is, by definition, poor. So they would be sucking up resources left and right while paying very little in to offset it.

9/1/2008 4:13:14 PM

Currently, they have to pay into social security but aren't eligible for benefits. If legal, they would eventually claim some money from the government. But that's a long way, and they could support system for the time being. Remember, by providing cheap labor, they boost the economy in other ways.

9/1/2008 4:23:03 PM

yes. they pay into it if they are being paid legitimately. and that's a big IF.

9/1/2008 4:26:31 PM

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9/1/2008 5:08:19 PM