whatever i say it will not matter...just like i stated two posts ago. people acquire littlebit of knowledge, regurgitate few news sources and now they are experts in advice how countries should deal with conflicts older than their own country. as a last country to abolish slavery you ought to say nothing about solving national problem in rational manner.

if mexicans in southern texas pick up arms and start killing local town politicians and police officers, demanding more rights, spanish as official language and full independence, i bet my life that US would use military (and deadly force) to succumb the separatist movement. kosovo was part of serbia, as recognized by entire world. it has full constitutional right to exercise military force and stop formation of albanian paramilitary forces who armed themselves and took law in their own hands. most of the combat was on the streets and local towns with PLENTY of albanian civilians with firearms. UCK (kosovo liberation army) would often hide in civilian houses when firing grenades.
serbs returned fire and people died. women, children included. is it serbian fault that separatist chose to hide under civilian clothing and chose to fight from civilian houses. they took the chance, risked their own family to launch an offensive. they took the law in their own hands and paid the price with their lives.
i regret loss of any life, be it albanian or serbian. nobody wants to see dead women and childred, but it's very much a reality and sometimes unavoidable.
did serbs have full right to expel separatist out of the country? of course they did.
bombing sovereign country to impede with internal conflict is a violation of international law. clinton knew it, yet he still proceeded. why?- well because US can...bigger guns, bigger rights.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 8:05 PM. Reason : .f]

2/19/2008 8:01:28 PM

Quote :

"people acquire littlebit of knowledge, regurgitate few news sources and now they are experts in advice how countries should deal with conflicts older than their own country."

I guess most of us just think of it as a general rule that you don't deal with conflicts by unarmed women and children. It really isn't country-specific.

Quote :

"as a last country to abolish slavery you ought to say nothing about solving national problem in rational manner."

Nobody alive today had anything to do with slavery. Even the rather more benign way in which we used to suppress our minority groups is now illegal. I cannot say the same for Serbia's form of action.

Quote :

"if mexicans in southern texas pick up arms and start killing local town politicians and police officers, demanding more rights, spanish as official language and full independence, i bet my life that US would use military (and deadly force) to succumb the separatist movement."

I have no doubt that we would use deadly force. I have very high doubts that we would intentionally use deadly force on noncombatants in a systematic effort to purge the Hispanic population.

But now it looks like you're trying to tell me that atrocities beyond the normal collateral damage did not happens. Sorry, but I've seen that song and dance show before. steve9194 performed it rather more ably, I'm afraid.

2/20/2008 6:24:47 AM

Quote :

" I guess most of us just think of it as a general rule that you don't deal with conflicts by unarmed women and children"

shows you know nothing about the conflict, aside whats served to you thrugh main stream media.

i dont know this steve character nor i care how he presented it. you are a kid who read littlebit of news, has some good wits and now thinks he knows everything there is to know about this conflict. you are clueless. maybe you should substitute actual travel with watching travel channel. i heard it's a same thing.

have a nice day. im done here.

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 9:26 AM. Reason : f]

2/20/2008 9:22:57 AM

Quote :

" Clearly shows your opinion. Ottoman empire systematically converted Serbs to Islam, from which present day Bosnian Muslims became. Turkey supported Bosnian Muslims all throughout Bosnian war. What a surprise huh? That empire is present day Turkey and stance towards Islamization and subsequent creation of muslim state within Yugo borders never changed. Preaching that it would be beneficial that Serbs were exterminated does not surprise me coming from a Turk. "

Hmm yes. I forgot TWW interpretation skills hover at a ninth grade level. If there was anything systematic about islamic conversion imposed on Slav populations then quite a few countries in southeastern Europe would have muslim majorities.

Maybe a little brushing up on your history is in order?

[quote]
For the record Muslims are some 50% majority in Bosnia, not a minority, as are Albanians 95% majority in Kosovo, so I am not sure about what minorities are you talking about? Obviously, you are clueless about the whole conflict.
[/qoute]

Yes, and thats why Kosovo is declaring independence. I'm poking fun at Serbian's getting in a huff about the matter but again the fact that you like every typical TWW'er can't argue without getting personally offended, obscured the point of the thread with your ethnic emostriking.

2/20/2008 10:28:58 AM

Quote :

"I guess most of us just think of it as a general rule that you don't deal with conflicts by unarmed women and children. It really isn't country-specific."

How many times does it need to be said, both sides of the issue committed atrocities. Christ, the former Prime Minister of Kosovo, Ramush Haradinaj, is currently standing trial for ethnic cleansing and the current Prime Minister Hashim Thaci is a known heroin smuggler, human trafficker, and gangster who employs individuals like the Brown Shirts of Nazi Germany to intimidate, beat up, and murder political opponents (men, women, and children).

Quote :

"Hmm yes. I forgot TWW interpretation skills hover at a ninth grade level. If there was anything systematic about islamic conversion imposed on Slav populations then quite a few countries in southeastern Europe would have muslim majorities. Maybe a little brushing up on your history is in order?"

Quite a few do. Bosnia, Albania, (now Kosovo). And many have large Muslim populations. You cannot ignore the systematic conversion to Islam. One such example was the "Blood Tax." With the practice of Devsirme, Christian youth were forcibly taken from their families and would either turned into Janissaries. A popular method of avoiding this practice was to convert the family to Islam. Also, the tax of the tenth, placed undue hardship on the peasant class, that many converted to Islam to avoid it entirely.

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 11:16 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 11:17 AM. Reason : .]

2/20/2008 10:57:13 AM

i guess it's hard to leave ...

SandSanta,

I guess your idea of poking fun involves statements about eradication of serbs. You got great sense of humor! Ex-yugoslavia (up from slovenia and especially down to macedonia) has considerable muslim population. Must be all those christian serbs and croats building those 300-400 year old mosques in croatia, bosnia, serbia, macedonia and montenegro. Bulgaria, Greece also have large muslim population. There are areas where muslims are majority, such as for example in southern parts of Europe, where ottoman empire was most dominating. Noticeable lack of muslims in north stems from austo-hungarian empire, that much like ottomans, converted non-catholic population to Catholicism, by using same tactics (tax, land).

I doubt you ever will, but it would be good for you to read a book by Ivo Andric (nobel prize winner in literature 1961) called “Na Drini cuprija” or translated "The bridge on Drina". It’s an excellent book, which among other things, depicts perfectly the whole process of Islamization of local population. There are more books by Andric, but this one is particularly good.

The culture, customs, language and cuisine left by ottoman empire is very rich and is today part of serbian culture. Serbian language has a lot in common with Turkish and food is identical. For this reason it is funny that you are denying there wasn't any systematic islamization of local population. Naming is even more obvious--christian first name and muslimesque last name or vice versa. The whole process is documented in various records, which are now artifacts in museums.


Albanian majority in Kosovo does not constitute grounds for a new country. It's like saying parts of the Turkey that have Greek population in majority should be independent.

2/20/2008 12:07:45 PM

TO KOSOVO

1 INDEPENDENCE 4 U LOLZ

XOXO
ALBANIAN MAFIA

2/20/2008 12:36:43 PM

Quote :

"i dont know this steve character nor i care how he presented it."

He was another murdering fascist who was able to easily shrug off systematic efforts at exterminating minorities.

Quote :

"shows you know nothing about the conflict, aside whats served to you thrugh main stream media."

Mainstream media didn't really establish the concept. Longstanding international law, on the other hand, did. Or were the Nuremberg trials fictions of my imagination?

Quote :

"How many times does it need to be said, both sides of the issue committed atrocities."

I'm aware. I've concurred several times. My statement was specifically in response to 1in10^9's apparent assertion that opposition to genocide is a product of CNN and wikipedia.

Quote :

"Albanian majority in Kosovo does not constitute grounds for a new country. It's like saying parts of the Turkey that have Greek population in majority should be independent."

To the best of my recollection these parts don't really exist. The Greek Orthodox population has, by and large, been persuaded to leave.

2/20/2008 1:56:52 PM

Quote :

"To the best of my recollection these parts don't really exist. The Greek Orthodox population has, by and large, been persuaded to leave."

What about Republicka Srpska, or Serb-Krajina? Here we have majority Serb population, but yet they are denied the right to secede from the respective countries they are currently part of. having a majority population in one area does not mean that population has the right to secession. Especially when there is no historical basis for that countries existence in the first place.

2/20/2008 2:02:20 PM

Quote :

" Quite a few do. Bosnia, Albania, (now Kosovo). And many have large Muslim populations. You cannot ignore the systematic conversion to Islam. One such example was the "Blood Tax." With the practice of Devsirme, Christian youth were forcibly taken from their families and would either turned into Janissaries. A popular method of avoiding this practice was to convert the family to Islam. Also, the tax of the tenth, placed undue hardship on the peasant class, that many converted to Islam to avoid it entirely. "

Please go ahead and post the percentage of the general populations in balkan, mediterranean and former Yugoslavian nations that are muslim.

I think it will, quite succinctly, prove my point that conversion to islam was neither systemic nor organized but more so a product of extended imperial rule. Compared to, say, the near 100% catholicism rate for Latin America.

Quote :

" I guess your idea of poking fun involves statements about eradication of serbs. "

I didn't read the rest of your shit because I'm decidedly curious as to what statements about 'eradicating' serbs I made.

Oh are you're referring to the 'could do without' statement?

Really?

REALLY?

2/20/2008 2:11:33 PM

Quote :

"Please go ahead and post the percentage of the general populations in balkan, mediterranean and former Yugoslavian nations that are muslim. I think it will, quite succinctly, prove my point that conversion to islam was neither systemic nor organized but more so a product of extended imperial rule. Compared to, say, the near 100% catholicism rate for Latin America."

extended imperial rule? so Devsirme and tax of tenth were not systemic or organized? The only reason why many of the religions persisted and maintained their levels is based upon the failures of the Ottoman Empire. They could not control the more mountainous regions. In other areas, with less cultural heritage and terrain more easily controlled, those people overwhelmingly converted.

Sure, there wasn't systemic slaughter of those who refused to accept Islam, like there was in Latin America, but to claim there wasn't a system in place to encourage conversion is laughable. Furthermore, current demographic figures will be skewed due to over 50 years of communist rule in which religion was persecuted.

and really, we could do without the Turks, they are responsible for one of the largest genocides in history and are currently engaging in a cultural genocide as we speak. Just remember, the sword cuts both ways.

2/20/2008 2:38:53 PM

Quote :

"What about Republicka Srpska, or Serb-Krajina?"

Dude, nutsmackr. Take a second and look at what I was responding to. Unless Serb-Krajina is an enclave of Greeks living in Turkey, what you said doesn't really have a damn thing to do with what I said. I really didn't mean anything by the comment more than to say that there aren't many Greek Orthodox left in Turkey.

This is in large part because modern Turkey is full of assholes, too.

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 3:23 PM. Reason : ]

2/20/2008 3:22:16 PM

If we are allowing Kosovo to have independence because there is a majority population of albanians there, then why not allow the same for Republicka Srpska or Serb-Krajina

2/20/2008 3:32:56 PM

The USA bombed the wrong side in that war. We should have sided with the Serbians.

2/20/2008 3:33:25 PM

^we shouldn't have sided with anyone.

2/20/2008 3:35:57 PM

Quote :

" extended imperial rule? so Devsirme and tax of tenth were not systemic or organized? The only reason why many of the religions persisted and maintained their levels is based upon the failures of the Ottoman Empire. They could not control the more mountainous regions. In other areas, with less cultural heritage and terrain more easily controlled, those people overwhelmingly converted. "

Lets examine Devsirme shall we?

Quote :

" At first, the soldiers to be serving in these corps were selected from the slaves captured during warfare. However, the system commonly known as "devsirme" was soon adopted. In the "devsirme" system, non-Muslim children of the rural Christian populations of the Balkans were conscripted before adolescence and were brought up as Muslims. Upon reaching adolescence, these children would be enrolled in either one of the four royal institutions: The Palace, the Scribes, the Religious and the Military. Those enrolled in the Military would become either part of the Janissary corps, or part of any one of the other corps.[3] Those among sent to the Palace institution (Enderun) were the brightest, and they were set aside for a career within the palace itself where the very ablest could aspire to attaining the very highest office of state, that of Grand Vizier, the Sultan's immensely powerful chief minister and military deputy. "

Seems more like indoctrination for a ruling bureaucracy loyal to the sultan rather then spreading the faith of Islam - especially considering what the Janissaries eventually became. As for your assertion that conversion was based on control, I have to say thats the dumbest thing I've possibly ever read given the context of how warfare was conducted at the height of Ottoman power. I won't even bother refuting it other then to continually point out that no eastern European nation that fell under the Ottoman flag has a Muslim majority, or anything approaching that. With that cold, hard, fact- your theory that islamic indoctrination was conducted systematically is thoroughly discredited, especially considering how long the Ottoman Empire ruled these countries and how well other governments succeed in converting populations given a similar time line.

Quote :

" Sure, there wasn't systemic slaughter of those who refused to accept Islam, like there was in Latin America, but to claim there wasn't a system in place to encourage conversion is laughable. Furthermore, current demographic figures will be skewed due to over 50 years of communist rule in which religion was persecuted. "

Encouraging conversion, and having a state apparatus that 'systematically converted' are completely different realities. I do want to note in public that you're actually starting to backpedal from your previous verbiage as you probably realize that anyone with any bit of intelligence can't argue that Ottoman's were the particularly good religious missionaries or even effective ones.

Quote :

" and really, we could do without the Turks, they are responsible for one of the largest genocides in history and are currently engaging in a cultural genocide as we speak. Just remember, the sword cuts both ways."

Thats the point I trolled out of you two knuckleheads. Getting up in arms and playing the cute devil's advocate and lending sympathy to Serb's given their history was blatantly stupid, and thats exactly what you were doing with your snide sniper comments such as "well <poor random revolutionary group here> killed their own people and blamed it on the serb's anyway hurrrrr." Which isn't entirely correct just like brushing off Serbian led massacres as Albanian propoganda is also not entirely correct.

2/20/2008 5:00:26 PM

Quote :

"Seems more like indoctrination for a ruling bureaucracy loyal to the sultan rather then spreading the faith of Islam - especially considering what the Janissaries eventually became. As for your assertion that conversion was based on control, I have to say thats the dumbest thing I've possibly ever read given the context of how warfare was conducted at the height of Ottoman power. I won't even bother refuting it other then to continually point out that no eastern European nation that fell under the Ottoman flag has a Muslim majority, or anything approaching that. With that cold, hard, fact- your theory that islamic indoctrination was conducted systematically is thoroughly discredited, especially considering how long the Ottoman Empire ruled these countries and how well other governments succeed in converting populations given a similar time line. "

It is just like the Lost Generation in Australia, America, etc. Take ethinic minority groups who will pose a risk to the established government and remove their children. Unlike Australia and the US where the aboriginal people were taken to be raised as their own without any means of preventing it, citizen groups in the Ottoman Empire had the choice of converting to Islam. It is easy to see, take the children away from their families, and sever all cultural ties. If that isn't systematic, I do not know what is.

Not even closely reaching a majority? Bosnia is 45% Muslim, by far the largest religious group in the country. In fact in all the countries that were once under the control of the Ottoman Empire, with a few exceptions, Islam is either the largest, or second largest religioius group.

Quote :

"Encouraging conversion, and having a state apparatus that 'systematically converted' are completely different realities. I do want to note in public that you're actually starting to backpedal from your previous verbiage as you probably realize that anyone with any bit of intelligence can't argue that Ottoman's were the particularly good religious missionaries or even effective ones. "

A state apparatus for encouraging conversion is systematic. Furthermore, I am not backing away from anything I've said. The Ottomans worked as good religious missionaries precisely because they had the backing of the State and the coercive measures the State allowed them to apply. Getting people to convert to a religion by either stealing their children or forcing them to pay more in taxes isn't exactly missionary work. It is coersion.

Quote :

"Thats the point I trolled out of you two knuckleheads. Getting up in arms and playing the cute devil's advocate and lending sympathy to Serb's given their history was blatantly stupid, and thats exactly what you were doing with your snide sniper comments such as "well <poor random revolutionary group here> killed their own people and blamed it on the serb's anyway hurrrrr." Which isn't entirely correct just like brushing off Serbian led massacres as Albanian propoganda is also not entirely correct. "

First of all, I've never said the Serbs did not committ atrocities. I've only pointed out that in many instances, those atrocities were originally overblown (re: genocide). I have also attempted to get it through your thick skull that atrocities were committed against the Serbs, but yet, it is thoroughly ignored by the Western Media.

If you haven't figured it out yet, no Serb has either been convicted of Genocide, or had the conviction upheld during an appeal. Not a single Serb to date.

And as the saying goes: Before you attempt to remove the sliver from my eye, remove the beam from yours. A turk attempting to lecture about people not wanting to acknowledge atrocities is extremely rich given your people's ferocious genocide and refusal to acknowledge it.

2/20/2008 5:57:55 PM

Quote :

"we shouldn't have sided with anyone."

I finally get to agree with something N-Smackr said!

BTW.. we had to bomb somewhere, to get our attention off the ever-expanding Monica scandal.

2/20/2008 10:34:48 PM

^ at least when Clinton fights a war, it doesn't cost 2 trillion dollars and 4000 soldiers to capture the bad guy.

2/20/2008 11:11:30 PM

he just spent countless dollars and killed countless people to catch no one.

2/21/2008 12:14:14 AM

^
True..he kept the jets safely in the air, while his pants were on the floor.

2/21/2008 10:46:50 AM

Oh jesus shut the fuck up both of you.

If anything he should have intervened in Bosnia sooner.

And even then, that shit doesn't remotely compare to the massive shit storm in Iraq now.

2/21/2008 11:02:15 AM

Quote :

"If anything he should have intervened in Bosnia sooner."

There is no basis for the US involvement in any of the conflicts in the 1990s. So go and crawl back into your Wilsonian cave.

2/21/2008 11:26:50 AM

Wouldn't a Wilsonian cave be an isolationist one?

Or I guess you're running with the self-determination one.

Whatever.

2/21/2008 3:24:11 PM

Wilson, Isolationist Does not compute.

2/21/2008 3:25:39 PM

i'd like to know how we always get dragged into riots.

Quote :

"Earlier Thursday, police estimated that about 150,000 people had attended a rally in the Serbian capital. The crowd waved Serbian flags and carried signs reading "Stop USA terror."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080221/ap_on_re_eu/serbia_kosovo_independence

i know the answer, but can't a state get a break? no respect.

2/21/2008 4:20:35 PM

we can't get a break when we put our noses everywhere. Had the US not actively supported Kosovo Independence, this situation would not have happened.

Our encouragement of Kosovo dragged us into the mess.

2/21/2008 4:35:56 PM

who cares...we are on the good side of this

2/21/2008 4:37:22 PM

this is so pointless from serbian side. it serves absolutely no purpose. it will not win kosovo over, it will not look good whichever way you turn it ...all in all, lost battle.

i give 2 years before macedonia is next.

2/21/2008 6:15:11 PM

maybe i'm being ignorant, but don't we have marines at embassies to protect against this type of shit?

Quote :

"we can't get a break when we put our noses everywhere. Had the US not actively supported Kosovo Independence, this situation would not have happened."

yes political support is always a good reason for putting people's lives in danger. and are these leaders who declared independence not democratically elected?

2/21/2008 7:04:17 PM

democratic and albanian or educated and albanian are mutually exclusive words.

bum, thug, criminal, uneducated, drug dealer are just of the many association to Hashim Taci, the so called premier of Kosovo.

here is just one of many sources about his life:

http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=561

2/21/2008 8:04:46 PM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5VWZoKWBYXE

They love looting as much as us Americans do

2/23/2008 8:08:22 PM