TSB: proving why conservative ideology is forever doomed for failure.

While we're baking drug dealers, we should also round up the homeless and churn them into soylent green.

I mean, no point in addressing underlying social issues, right?

2/29/2008 5:02:02 PM

mmmmm reconstituted homeless **licks lips**

2/29/2008 7:04:50 PM

one wonders with those $385 million prisons kbr built a few years back that could house MILLIONS

what will the ratio be in 20 years?

2/29/2008 8:14:43 PM

Quote :

"I am liable to say incriminating things on this website that really piss off bigots and do not want to get arrested jumped, vandalized, etc.."

Maybe I'm missing some of the more inflammatory things you've said on here. So far it's just been a bunch of "I love drugs" stuff coupled with some other libertarian-sounding ideas. If you're worried about getting jumped over that, I'm gonna have to go ahead and suggest some *legal* medication for paranoid delusions.

Quote :

"I already said: (imho) "NO ONE EVER TAKING YOU SERIOUSLY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE""

:shrug: So far I've met some agreement and some disagreement. Nobody writing me off as a nut.

Quote :

"I mean, no point in addressing underlying social issues, right?"

I'm not suggesting harsher penalties to the exclusion of programs to address these issues. In fact, I've already said that people who are merely addicted to drugs should not be sent to jail, but rather to treatment. My overall approach is:

1) Extremely harsh penalties for producing or trafficking large quantities of narcotics. That is to say, executions.
2) Large-scale drug treatment programs for addicts funded in part by a reallocation of anti-drug resources as well as by a temporary "surge," if you will, in funding for anti-drug programs.
3) Making government assistance programs contingent on drug testing.
4) A restructuring of drug education programs away.
5) The legalization, regulation, and taxation of certain drugs, most prominently marijuana.
6) Possible suspension of sentences for individuals currently in the justice system for drug-related offenses.

Though expenses would be offset somewhat by tax revenue from the newly legal drugs, they would be considerably higher in the short term. However, having put real pressure on supply and made a concerted effort to reduce the established demand, I think it would reduce long-term costs immensely.

3/1/2008 12:44:51 AM

^ while that would work, and implementing even points 2-6 would be reasonable, it's not reasonable to execute large scale drug dealers. It's likely a lot of people doing to mass trafficking are also involved in a lot of violence that may warrant death row, but merely trafficking large amounts of drugs does not.

There are lots of crimes we could greatly reduce by making the punishment execution, but it's not in the interest of the ideologies of our society to do so.

3/1/2008 1:03:02 AM

If the harsh mandatory minimum sentencing guidelines we have in effect now are not enough to deter crime, then what makes you think the death penalty will? Manufacturing of methamphetamine and MDMA carries a 10 year federal mandatory sentence BEFORE you tack on the adders for anything else that was going on, such as money laundering, tax evasion, guns on the premises, etc. Those are federal sentences too, which means the person will serve 85-90% of their sentence upon conviction. If taking away over a decade of a person's life can't even put a dent in the problem, I don't see how taking their entire life is going to be any different. Interstate trafficking carries similar sentencing guidelines.

What will happen if you impose a death penalty is that you'll force dealers to be willing to shoot their way out of any situation. If you're going to be put to death for your crimes, you might as well take as many cops out with you as you can.

3/1/2008 10:50:53 AM

Quote :

"There are lots of crimes we could greatly reduce by making the punishment execution, but it's not in the interest of the ideologies of our society to do so."

Well, all it really boils down to here is whether or not you think a given crime warrants the death penalty, and that's the other half of the equation. It's not just whether or not execution would reduce incidence of a crime.

Shoplifting might be sharply curtailed by the threat of lethal injection, but the damage it causes -- even as an aggregate -- isn't that substantial.

Drug sales and trafficking, however, not only stand to be curtailed, but cause enormous social problems, many of which are self-propagating (poor people use hard drugs which keeps them poor which keeps them on drugs which...). It leads to the deaths of both users and nonusers, and not merely from the criminal empire it supports. It kills communities, it creates huge medical expenses, and it supports some of the most barbaric regimes and organizations on the planet. Frankly, I find it more destructive to society, law, order, and individuals than the crime of murder. And most Americans seem to think executing murderers is perfectly copacetic with our ideologies.

Quote :

"If taking away over a decade of a person's life can't even put a dent in the problem, I don't see how taking their entire life is going to be any different."

You don't see the difference in being alive for ten years and being alive for forty? OK, I'll explain it to you. One of those numbers is bigger than the other.

Prison life is shitty, but it is life. For many people, especially the recidivists (including a large number of drug offenders), it isn't even really that shitty -- it's what they're used to. Prison life allows these people to continue operating within their organizations, quite possibly even in the same capacity -- selling drugs. It comes with the constant possibility of early release and the certainty of eventual release anyway.

Quote :

"What will happen if you impose a death penalty is that you'll force dealers to be willing to shoot their way out of any situation."

A pretty small percentage of people who have committed other capital crimes do this, I don't know why drug dealers would be any different.

3/1/2008 1:07:24 PM

human sacrifice is awesome. i hear the aztecs were big fans

[Edited on March 1, 2008 at 3:21 PM. Reason : .]

3/1/2008 3:20:56 PM

Quote :

"Prison life allows these people to continue operating within their organizations, quite possibly even in the same capacity -- selling drugs. It comes with the constant possibility of early release and the certainty of eventual release anyway. "

I can guarantee you that 99.9% of drug dealers serve in no useful capacity behind bars. There may be a handful of top ranking organized crime figures who can still make connections and move money around behind bars, but the vast majority of drug operatives are completely worthless to their organizations when they can't network with others.

3/1/2008 5:27:50 PM

Prison populations are almost universally divided into factions, some of which represent these very organizations. They are rife with networks. They may not be selling drugs on the street or even in prison (you realize this happens, right?), but they are still part of their gang.

If putting people in prison actually had a major impact on the ability of these organizations to function, they wouldn't be functioning so damn well.

3/1/2008 5:55:53 PM

you do realize that selling drugs in prison accounts for a very small fraction of a percent of the drug trade, don't you?

the fact that putting these people in prison does almost nothing for stopping the drug problem indicates that your rationale of thinking is wrong. the people selling drugs are expendable; someone else will just take over in their place after they are dead or imprisoned.

3/2/2008 1:49:06 AM

Quote :

"the fact that putting these people in prison does almost nothing for stopping the drug problem indicates that your rationale of thinking is wrong."

I beg to differ. Prisons haven't worked for this. There is a substantial difference between prison and death. You can't make the conclusion that the failure of one indicates the likely failure of the other.

Quote :

"the people selling drugs are expendable; someone else will just take over in their place after they are dead or imprisoned."

They are expendable to the organizations that recruit them; they are not expendable to themselves. I think you'll find that people are kind of reluctant to take over a position whose previous occupant got put down like a stray dog.

3/3/2008 12:38:10 AM

Quote :

"I think you'll find that people are kind of reluctant to take over a position whose previous occupant got put down like a stray dog."

not when it comes to selling drugs you won't

3/3/2008 12:58:41 AM

Oh, you'll be able to get people to do it, but you'll have to compensate them more and more as the risks become more and more apparent. The idea is to get costs prohibitively high, not to physically exterminate everyone who is willing to sell drugs.

3/3/2008 11:56:53 AM

simplistic economic models don't work with highly addictive drugs like heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine. if you drive up the cost of the drugs by a factor of ten, you'll just end up with habitual addicts commiting ten times as many crimes to fund their addiction.

Besides, as long as our society remains reluctant to hire convicted felons into any worthwhile job, there will be people willing to take the risk of selling drugs to fund their lifestyles.

3/3/2008 6:47:19 PM

n/m I get it.

[Edited on March 3, 2008 at 9:22 PM. Reason : 2]

3/3/2008 9:21:19 PM

Quote :

"simplistic economic models don't work with highly addictive drugs like heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine."

The death penalty aspect of the plan isn't aimed at mere addicted users, it's aimed at dealers. It really doesn't matter how badly the addict wants something if nobody's around to give it to them, or if there are so few that supply is severely constrained.

Quote :

"Besides, as long as our society remains reluctant to hire convicted felons into any worthwhile job, there will be people willing to take the risk of selling drugs to fund their lifestyles."

I maintain that most people would rather have a shitty lifestyle than a coffin courtesy of NC Central Prison.

3/3/2008 10:06:41 PM

Organized crime systems already have numerous hitmen on their rosters, and the death penalty doesn't seem to serve as much of a deterrent to them. Even after the ringleader of Murder Inc. was electrocuted at the hands of our government, we continue to see murders related to organized crime.

Since heroin and crack demand are price inelastic, then dealers will always be able to find a price to make it worth their risk to sell drugs. The ONLY thing your plan will do is drive up the amount of taxes I'm currently paying to support the war on drugs, since we'd be required to fund a huge increase in the number of death row operations and appeals requests.

[Edited on March 3, 2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason : the reason the War on Drugs is failing now is because we focus too much on supply models only.]

3/3/2008 11:03:48 PM

I'm pretty sure that his plan would reduce the supply of drugs and also the number of addicts, since a similar system (minus the legalization of marajuana part) has been very successful in Singapore.

Quote :

"According to Mr. Poh, Singapore, with about 2.6 million people, now has roughly 9,000 addicts, about 85 percent of them using smokable heroin. From 1974 to the end of 1976, Mr. Poh said, the number of heroin addicts exploded in Singapore from about 100 to 13,000. As part of a plan to reduce demand as well as supply, Singapore then decided to incarcerate as many addicts as possible for treatment and rehabilitation. By the end of the next year, 9,000 people were taken into custody, and those who tested positive for drugs were immediately sent to treatment centers by executive action; the courts were bypassed entirely, a practice which continues. Singapore now arrests about 4,000 addicts a year, about 70 percent of them repeat offenders, and about 300 traffickers, of whom 20 to 30 are subject to the death penalty. "

Quote :

"Anyone caught with more than or equal to 15 g (0.5 ounces) of heroin, 28 g (1 ounce) of morphine or 480 g (17 ounces) of cannabis faces mandatory capital punishment, as they are deemed to be trafficking in these substances. The stated quantities are the net weight of the substances after they have been isolated by laboratory analysis. Between 1991 and 2004, 400 people were hanged in Singapore, mostly for drug trafficking, the highest per-capita execution rate in the world. See Singapore Government's response to accusations regarding its use of capital punishment. "

Quote :

"In Singapore, addicts, though arrested, are not given criminal status. They are put into rehabilitation centers and segregated by their pattern of drug use. All who are fit and under the age of 55 are put through ''cold turkey'' detoxification in spare rooms for a week. There is medical supervision, but no medication is provided to ease withdrawal. The point, said Mr. Poh, is to remember the pain. Drug maintenance programs, he said, merely perpetuate addiction. Nor are addicts regarded as patients; they are seen as people with behavioral problems. A week of recuperation from detoxification follows, plus orientation to a regimen of paramilitary discipline. Once they are judged ready and able to quit drug use, the first-time addicts are put into two weeks of intensive physical training in the tropical sun and equally intensive personal, group and family counseling. The entire experience is designed as ''a short, sharp shock,'' to wean them from drugs and to make them afraid to try again. Between 30 and 50 percent of first-time addicts are then sent home, and for two years they must report to the police for urine tests on a regular schedule, undergo counseling and be subjected to surprise urine tests. The others are at this point put in a two- or three-month course at another, harsher center. They then enter a four-month day-release program, during which they are permitted outside employment. The two years of urine tests and counseling come after that for this group. "

3/3/2008 11:17:44 PM

Quote :

"the courts were bypassed entirely, a practice which continues. "

Unless his plan also calls for stomping a mudhole through the entire Constitution along with the desecration of the Bill of Rights he's already asking for, the steps taken in Singapore do not reflect at all on what would happen in the US.

Also, your article fails to mention the recent surge in methamphetamine abuse that is being observed in Singapore and the rest of Asia. For a country that executes a higher percentage of their population than any other country on earth, they aren't doing a very good job of curtailing their rising drug abuse and trafficking problems.

3/3/2008 11:31:42 PM

Singapore has one of the lowest drug abuse rates in the world and has been falling for many years.

http://www.drugfree.org.sg/Drugs/index.asp?name=Singapore%20Drug%20Situation%20in%202005

3/3/2008 11:40:49 PM

that site posted an identical copy of the Singapore CNB. It's not reliable at all, because it says the exact opposite of what peer-reviewed groups such as Blackwell-Synergy and the Accord Plan are reporting. Who are you honestly going to believe: a country that is trying to justify why they execute so many people, or the organizations around them who report that Singapore is seeing the exact same rise in abuse of methamphetamine that every other country in Asia is seeing?

3/3/2008 11:47:11 PM

If you think the information on executing drug dealers in Singapore is relevant, then you might want to go ahead and post the statistical drug abuse data on Bangladesh, Brunei, China, India, Indonesia, North Korea, South Korea, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, and Viet Nam too. All of those countries have execution laws for drug offenses on their law books.

You'll notice that China made that list. Want to take a guess as to which country is responsible for manufacturing and shipping over the majority of the methamphetamine and club drug precursors to this country and to Mexico to fuel illicit manufacturing? Do you want to guess what country is also responsible for the vast majority of the illicit steroids and growth hormone being sold in this country? The only reason China even offered any similance of cooperation with our DEA during Operation Raw Deal is because they were under heavy pressure worldwide to clean up their act prior to the Olympics this year being held in China. You can bet money that after this year, it will be back to business as usual.

3/4/2008 12:03:09 AM

Quote :

"Even after the ringleader of Murder Inc. was electrocuted at the hands of our government, we continue to see murders related to organized crime."

We do see them, sure. But they aren't terribly common, because professional murders are expensive, because the cost of doing business in that field is potentially very, very high.

Quote :

"Since heroin and crack demand are price inelastic, then dealers will always be able to find a price to make it worth their risk to sell drugs."

There is a price at which they will decide it is worth the risk, sure. I'm saying that they won't get that price, because drug addicts are not notorious for wallowing in large amounts of disposable income.

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"the reason the War on Drugs is failing now is because we focus too much on supply models only."

Well then it's a good thing mine doesn't focus on supply models only, isn't it?

Quote :

"If you think the information on executing drug dealers in Singapore is relevant, then you might want to go ahead and post the statistical drug abuse data on Bangladesh, Brunei, China, India, Indonesia, North Korea, South Korea, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, and Viet Nam too."

Virtually all of those countries have police far less efficient, and governments far more corrupt, than our own. I'm also very curious how you have drug statistics from North Korea when we barely have any food statistics from there.

3/4/2008 1:44:25 AM

Quote :

"Columbian drug lord killed in Venezuela Published: Saturday, February 02, 2008 BOGOTA -- The boss of Colombia's biggest remaining cocaine cartel was shot dead in neighboring Venezuela in an apparent settling of scores among drug gangs, authorities said Friday. The discovery of the bullet-riddled body of Wilber Varela, known as "Jabon" or "Soap," Wednesday near Colombia's border will likely fuel U.S. criticism that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has let his country become a safe haven for drug smugglers. "We are working with Colombia to turn over the body," said Venezuela's anti-drug chief Col. Nestor Luis Reverol, who said the body's fingerprints matched those of the wanted cocaine king. "

Seems like drug dealers are already bumping each other off. And the drugs keep flowing in. The threat of death doesn't seem to be as strong a deterrent as you might think. The law of Supply and Demand seems to trump all.


http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=8eca0e06-72cb-4712-80eb-1838c9945cd3

3/4/2008 11:57:13 AM

The people towards the top of the organizational pyramid are making enough that it is worth the risk to them. The drug purchasing population cannot pay enough to make everyone in the chain equally well-off.

3/4/2008 12:35:35 PM

are you implying that the street corner dealers who get routinely murdered around Baltimore and Los Angeles are high enough on the drug pyramid money-wise to justify the risk of death? What about the Cuban mules who had a tendency to get chopped up during sales in Miami in the eighties?

3/4/2008 8:34:15 PM

Quote :

"are you implying that the street corner dealers who get routinely murdered around Baltimore and Los Angeles are high enough on the drug pyramid money-wise to justify the risk of death?"

No. As it currently stands, drug dealers in American urban centers run a higher risk of dying than most, but there's still a fairly high ratio of dealers to dead dealers.

Quote :

"What about the Cuban mules who had a tendency to get chopped up during sales in Miami in the eighties?"

Again, international comparisons are not terribly useful, especially when they're international comparisons that are twenty years old.

3/4/2008 11:17:31 PM