And to address this whole domestication issue...

We've domesticated cats and dogs in two ways and two ways only.

We've altered the way they look (different breeds). And we've altered the way they think (so they don't eat us, but rather depend on us).

THAT'S IT.

Through however many thousands of years it took to get cats and dogs as they are today, no one was concerned with altering their digestive systems, their renal physiology, cardiac health. Dogs work the same way physiologically as wolves work. And cats work the same way as the wild cats work.

Using mitochondrial mapping it has been shown that dogs, although domesticated, are more genetically related to wolves than previously believed. Furthermore, are surprisingly even more similar to wolves than coyotes.

3/6/2008 9:44:55 AM

so what dry dog foods are theoretically the best to feed a dog? mine is 7 years old with no allergies or digestive issues.

i feed my dog healthy weight purina beneful right now, and she never has had any problems with it. i just looked up the ingredients though, and the first several listed don't seem to be that great based on what people are saying here.

3/6/2008 9:56:12 AM

I've talked to 2 board certified pet nutritionists, there are only I think 36 or 38 in the country. Both remarked that Innova Evo was the only species-specific formulated dog/cat food on the market at this point. And both were really excited about it.

It is basically the dry form of feeding RAW.

That's what I would reccommend.

Here's the ingredient list if you're interested.
http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1485

3/6/2008 10:03:42 AM

so why are you trying the raw medallions?

3/6/2008 10:08:14 AM

Quote :

"holy fuck have you EVER taken any companion animal related classes or hell just read the labels in the store? there are SEVERAL brands of dog food that use human quality/grade ingredients, not the shit they put in alpo. you're obviously a moron and this is exactly why i don't bother with these threads anymore. the stupidity is overwhelming and nothing anybody does can help it."

Way to use reading comprehension. I said MOST kibbles are pure shit. A few are not as bad, but still not as good as real food.

I've seen thousands of dogs on all sorts of food, same reaction to science diet as mine. It's over priced shit. I've attended vet continuing ed courses FOR FUN. Anyone with half of their skull filled can figure out that almost all of the kibble sold is nothing more than a way for companies to get rid of waste products unfit for human consumption, that they are too greedy to throw away so they sell it to you as pet food.

I honestly wanted to attend vet school, until I realized how stupid and closed minded most vets are. I'll take the advice of breeders and trainers over vets any day, because they are concerned with the animal's health while the vet wants to make a buck and likes to talk out their ass about something they have NO training or experience with aka nutrition.

3/6/2008 10:13:51 AM

I think EVO is a good alternative (the only alternative) for people that are uncomfortable handling raw meat. Salmonella is more harmful for us than it is for our pets, and I think that makes people squeamish. I prefer to feed raw, because it's more natural. There is still a tad bit of processing that has to go into making EVO, you can't have a kibble without something to hold it together (so it has a very minor amount of grain, carb) For cats, I think RAW is best, you have more leeway with dogs.

Since I'm in school though and we get all these breaks, I feed both so that when I get a pet-sitter, she's not forced to handle the RAW food if she doesn't want to. Plus it's more labor-intensive since it's frozen and I'd have to pay her to come over twice a day vs. every other day if all she has to do is throw dry food in the bowls.

3/6/2008 10:15:05 AM

^^
I will agree that vet's could know more about nutrition. Do I think it needs to be offered in the curriculum at vet schools, not necessarily. I am surprised though that so many veterinarians are still vouching for Science Diet. In my opinion it's probably as bad as Ol' Roy.

But veterinarians are doctors. And they are the experts when it comes to taking care of the health of your animal. Not all veterinarians are created equal just as not all doctors are. But to say you'd take the opinion and advice of a breeder (who in my opinion are most definately also making a buck off their animals) and trainers over a highly educated doctor is irresponsible. It's ok to be slightly jaded, but don't make silly decisions because of it. Breeder and Trainer does not equal Veterinarian, and neither will ever be an adequate replacement.

3/6/2008 10:24:14 AM

So how do you thaw your medallions?

3/6/2008 10:27:39 AM

Oh sorry, I thought I PMed you, guess it didn't work.

I just pull however many I'm going to feed that morning out the night before, stick 'em in a ziploc and put them in my butter drawer. By morning they are usually defrosted. I might zap them in the microwave for 15-20 seconds to make it easier to mash up. And then I do the same thing that morning for what I'll feed at night.

They don't have to be frozen at all times. They just keep better if you put what you're not using in the freezer.

3/6/2008 10:33:15 AM

The microwaves are gonna give your animals cancer.

3/6/2008 10:41:27 AM

Fumbler i think you're lost

your thread is here: message_topic.aspx?topic=503107

3/6/2008 10:47:58 AM

Quote :

"But veterinarians are doctors. And they are the experts when it comes to taking care of the health of your animal. Not all veterinarians are created equal just as not all doctors are. But to say you'd take the opinion and advice of a breeder (who in my opinion are most definately also making a buck off their animals) and trainers over a highly educated doctor is irresponsible. It's ok to be slightly jaded, but don't make silly decisions because of it. Breeder and Trainer does not equal Veterinarian, and neither will ever be an adequate replacement."

And here we get into the eastern vs. western medicine debate. Western medicine is at best a crisis management program. It is NOT and will never be a health optimization program. I don't want to keep an animal alive, I want to keep it at it's optimal health level. As long as vets are trained exclusively in western medicine I will only use them for emergencies and rabies vaccines, maybe rxs and bloodwork if things get really out of hand. Their advice on health management is useless to me unless they have had extensive training after vet school, something that very few vets have and many more trainers and breeders do. Reason being that vets lose a LOT of money by using more effective eastern practices to manage chronic conditions. My mother was taking my dog to the idiot vet on a monthly basis and spending tons of money on science diet, rxs, and bloodwork. I took her to a holistic vet TWICE and with the better food and a few supplements she was better in a month than after a year of western medicine. I've heard many similar stories from many animal owners. It's not an isolated incident, it's a shift in medicine. People are finally starting to realize vets and doctors are only for crisis management, and should not be trusted for advice on keeping animals healthy.

The difference is the breeders might make a buck when the animals are healthy, but the vet makes a lot more when the animal is sick. I'll take the advice of the one that makes money on healthy animals, since that's what I want. The breeders that I know at best break even when things go exactly as planned, but national and international level competition gets expensive quick.

3/6/2008 11:07:32 AM

since breeding and showing has gone so well with dogs, how do you explain all of the hip dysplasia, allergies, and the fucked up shit they did to the rear legs of german shepherds to make them stand pretty? what about the fact that bulldogs can't birth puppies naturally? show breeding is done to produce pretty dogs that win competitions.

do you really believe that all vets are out to make money off your dog? that's sad. you need to find a new vet. my vet cares.

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 11:22 AM. Reason : ]

3/6/2008 11:17:51 AM

ldwoods - do you also use those chinese footpad things to get rid of the toxins in your soul?

3/6/2008 11:26:36 AM

Well you're in luck, because there is certainly a trend, at least in my class, of more and more vet students interested in taking an osteopathic and holistic approach with their medicine. I'll agree, old (and maybe not so old) veterinarians have old habits. But practicing entirely Eastern medicine is not a cure-all. Medicine works optimally when both methods are combined.

However, in concerning the knowledge level of pet enthusiasts on animal healthcare. Sure, you can learn a great deal through continuing education. And it's really respectable that trainers and some breeders go to such lengths to educate themselves. Oftentimes a lot of their knowledge comes from having a close relationship with their veterinarian and picking his/her brain.

But, again, there is no substitute for the level of education and expertise that comes with going through veterinary school. The first two years are purely all the -ology's. Physiology, histology, neurology, morphology, pathology, immunology, parasitology...the list goes on. I mean you've gotta known how it all works before you develop this personalized East meets West method of treatment. Veterinary medicine is a constantly evolving science. Eastern and Western medicine was developed out of trial and error. Medicine is an imperfect science practiced by imperfect people. However, the level of training a doctor has in this imperfect science is incredibly invaluable and more often than not far surpasses enthusiasts. Like I said, there is no substitution for that knowledge.

3/6/2008 11:39:08 AM

Quote :

"since breeding and showing has gone so well with dogs, how do you explain all of the hip dysplasia, allergies, and the fucked up shit they did to the rear legs of german shepherds to make them stand pretty? what about the fact that bulldogs can't birth puppies naturally? show breeding is done to produce pretty dogs that win competitions."

No shit. That's why I like WORKING lines. Completely different. Like going to NCSU and getting a degree in communication or mechanical engineering. Both the same thing to people that don't know better, but one's likely pretty with a box of rocks in their skull and one's able to do something useful.

I owned a German shepherd website. 99% of breeders in the US would get nothing more than the middle finger from me.

3/6/2008 11:39:10 AM

Well you're in luck, because there is certainly a trend, at least in my class, of more and more vet students interested in taking an osteopathic and holistic approach with their medicine. I'll agree, old (and maybe not so old) veterinarians have old habits. But practicing entirely Eastern medicine is not a cure-all. Medicine works optimally when both methods are combined.

However, in concerning the knowledge level of pet enthusiasts on animal healthcare. Sure, you can learn a great deal through continuing education. And it's really respectable that trainers and some breeders go to such lengths to educate themselves. Oftentimes a lot of their knowledge comes from having a close relationship with their veterinarian and picking his/her brain.

But, again, there is no substitute for the level of education and expertise that comes with going through veterinary school. The first two years are purely all the -ology's. Physiology, histology, neurology, morphology, pathology, immunology, parasitology...the list goes on. I mean you've gotta known how it all works before you develop this personalized East meets West method of treatment. Veterinary medicine is a constantly evolving science. Eastern and Western medicine was developed out of trial and error. Medicine is an imperfect science practiced by imperfect people. However, the level of training a doctor has in this imperfect science is incredibly invaluable and more often than not far surpasses enthusiasts. Like I said, there is no substitution for that knowledge.

3/6/2008 11:39:29 AM

How can one think that veterinarians are only in it for the money? When I worked at a vet hospital, none of the vets there were wealthy by any means. It's not like they get paid the same amount to do a surgery on a dog that a human doctor would get after doing a similar procedure.

3/6/2008 11:40:15 AM

shit, sorry

3/6/2008 11:41:22 AM

Quote :

"No shit. That's why I like WORKING lines. Completely different. Like going to NCSU and getting a degree in communication or mechanical engineering. Both the same thing to people that don't know better, but one's likely pretty with a box of rocks in their skull and one's able to do something useful. I owned a German shepherd website. 99% of breeders in the US would get nothing more than the middle finger from me."

what? is this supposed to be logical? completely irrelevant and a horrible attempt at an analogy.

who cares if you owned a website? just bc it's found online doesn't make it fact

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 11:45 AM. Reason : ]

3/6/2008 11:45:37 AM

Quote :

"But, again, there is no substitute for the level of education and expertise that comes with going through veterinary school. The first two years are purely all the -ology's. Physiology, histology, neurology, morphology, pathology, immunology, parasitology...the list goes on. I mean you've gotta known how it all works before you develop this personalized East meets West method of treatment."

Except when you are friends with a breeder that also happens to be a vet, other friends just happen to have PhDs in many of those -ologies and happen to feed raw as well, and some of the breeders and trainers you know have been producing national working dog champions for decades. They have to be doing something right. Yes, I will trust them more than the average schmuck with a DVM, fresh out of school and full of what they've read, but precious little real world experience and no results to back them up.

3/6/2008 11:52:57 AM

Quote :

"what? is this supposed to be logical? completely irrelevant and a horrible attempt at an analogy. who cares if you owned a website? just bc it's found online doesn't make it fact"

Ever hear of a joke?

You're right, I should have picked on textiles instead of communications. Everyone knows the hot dumb chicks are in textiles.

3/6/2008 11:57:47 AM

Quote :

"Do not consecutively reply to a topic - If you are within the alloted timespan for editing a message that no one has replied to and you think of something to add, EDIT the message. DO NOT REPLY AGAIN. Constant abuse of this will not be tolerated. "

3/6/2008 12:00:50 PM

^^you're obviously crazy so i'm not going to continue this. you can't go back and be like oh i was joking, i'm not really that stupid. it's too late.

[Edited on March 6, 2008 at 12:01 PM. Reason : ]

3/6/2008 12:01:13 PM

sorry, you minored in communication, didn't you?

3/6/2008 12:05:05 PM

Hah, well you didn't include that little caveat. Interesting how you've done it after the fact. Your friend that is a vet AND a breeder, is a vet first, period. Thus this also makes your argument trash. You were leading us to believe it was just because he was a breeder that he'd magically gained all of this information that you trust so much, and because of such was far superior than pet docs. And it's apparent that you're using a singular example to apply to all. I can assure you of all the breeders I've come across, none were as competent in animal health as the veterinarian that they regularly saw.

Additionally having a PhD is great, although you don't specify in what. I am taught on a daily basis by a number of PhD holders, and unfortunately they are not as up on their animal -ologies as you suggest. Similar priniciples are there, but the details are vastly different. I would like to point out that when we are taught by a DVM, very rarely are there discrepancies in what applies to animal health vs. what is the norm. in human health. I hope you're following.

And now, to your beloved breeders "that must be doing something right." I'll agree there are some great people out there who are in it solely for the perpetuation of wonderful, healthy animals. But I know you realize that it is the breeders who for centuries have perpetuated the innumberable health disorders that plague purebred dogs. Inbreeding, genetic disease proliferation...You seem to be partial to German Shepherds, so I'm sure you're already aware of many of these, but for the benefit of everyone else here are just a few of the genetic diseases that German Shepherds are predisposed to.

Cancer-systemic histocytosis, mastosarcoma
Megaesophagus
Hypothyroidism
Vestibular Disease
Hemophilia
Dilated Cardiomyopathy
Ventricular Arrythmias
Autoimmune hemolytic anemia
Idiopathic thrombocytopenia
Epilepsy
Bone Cysts
Hip Dysplasia
Intervertebral Disc Disease
Wobbler's
Cystitis

Believe me that's not exhaustive.

And after all of this purebred genetic garbage is produced, guess who's expected to fix it.

VETERINARIANS

3/6/2008 12:34:31 PM

Quote :

"And now, to your beloved breeders "that must be doing something right." I'll agree there are some great people out there who are in it solely for the perpetuation of wonderful, healthy animals. But I know you realize that it is the breeders who for centuries have perpetuated the innumberable health disorders that plague purebred dogs. Inbreeding, genetic disease proliferation...You seem to be partial to German Shepherds, so I'm sure you're already aware of many of these, but for the benefit of everyone else here are just a few of the genetic diseases that German Shepherds are predisposed to."

You expect me to treat vets as individuals but you don't do the same for breeders? Classic.

Yes, lots of garbage in the breed. Surprisingly, a few very healthy dogs too. Honestly the next dog I buy from a breeder won't have papers. Why? Because it won't be a purebred, it'll be a working dog. When I talk about breeders I am talking about the kind of people you probably haven't met, that you'd be wise to STFU and listen to because they have more experience with working dogs than any vet can hope to have. The difference is that you try to shit on breeders because there are some idiots producing pretty but very sick dogs, while the people I am talking about produce very healthy, active, and intelligent animals that most people should never own, simply because the dogs are smarter than the average human. Funny thing is that the vet/breeder isn't one of the people you'd listen to, because of the raw feeding and fewer vaccines. What's really sad is that most vets wouldn't list to Dr. Dodds about vaccines, but the AAHA puts out their new vaccine schedule and suddenly vets start to think it's okay to not needle animals every year. I'll listen to people like Dr. Dodds who are at the forefront of medicine changing it, not the people that sit on their asses and lecture vet students and are happy with the status quo.

It's okay, live in your little vet world where you are the top of the food chain and I'll listen to the people with experience. Some of them are vets, many are not.

3/6/2008 1:07:17 PM

Quote :

"I'll agree there are some great people out there who are in it solely for the perpetuation of wonderful, healthy animals. "

Pretty sure I'm making no blanket statements. I have addressed the fact that not all breeders are created equal. And I was the first to admit not all vets are created equal. You're the only one making generalizations here.

And I'm happy for you and your working dogs. And I'm sure they need greater mental stimulation, training, a job, exercise. But a dog is a dog is a dog. Whether it's a working breed (which yes I've owned one of those) or a prissy little bichon-the methodology behind health varies very little.

Status quo huh? I'm pretty sure I've been the biggest proponent of RAW food on here. And over-vaccination is not an opinion unique to Dr. Dodds. It's been well-established that the efficacy of most vaccines lasts much longer than a year. And that there are more than a few health hazards related to too many vaccines in companion animals and food animals. Same goes for human medicine.

And by the way I'm a first year buddy, that's HARDLY the top of the food chain. In fact every day the professors are sure to remind us of that fact.

3/6/2008 1:31:56 PM

just a reminder, the topic of this thead is:

Quote :

"What do you feed your dog? Dry, Wet, Raw etc "

not:

Quote :

"argue about who knows more about animals"

if you HAVE to argue, argue about canine nutrition, not who's smarter between vets&breeders and who's stupid for backing whatever side of that.

3/6/2008 1:46:25 PM

Just going to address this and that's all:

Quote :

"sorry, you minored in communication, didn't you? "

If you're referring to se7entythree . . . it says right there in her profile "animal science/nutrition"

If you're referring to me . . . it says right there in my profile "animal science/english"

3/6/2008 2:43:47 PM

Quote :

"if you HAVE to argue, argue about canine nutrition, not who's smarter between vets&breeders and who's stupid for backing whatever side of that."

Haha, well that kinda shut us up...

So will there be anymore nutrition talk?

3/6/2008 7:46:38 PM

I feed my dog pedigree, but to the OP, I've seen the best success with patients who tried Eukanuba Fish and Potatoes:

Great food and very similar to the duck and potatoes your dog is on currently. Its also not expensive like some of the science diet varieties.


/another Animal Science-Nutrition student

3/6/2008 8:56:46 PM

There's a trend of animal science student/graduates who feed their animals dry food. They have no financial incentive to do that either....that should tell you something.

Anyway, like I said, our dog is allergic to corn.
Since your dog does well with the duck and potato then why switch?
If you do switch then maybe you could try a high quality lamb and rice. That's what our dog gets.
She might not be allergic to all grains.

3/6/2008 10:42:50 PM

Quote :

"I've seen the best success with patients who tried Eukanuba Fish and Potatoes"

I've heard good things about that one, i'll have to look over the ingredient list

Quote :

" Since your dog does well with the duck and potato then why switch?"

variety is the spice of life? oh and also because the manufacturer of my current kibble outsources the production to a few different places which means the food is less safe (see: recent pet food contamination problem, which the company that makes my food got caught up in)

3/6/2008 11:34:35 PM

I thought the contamination issue was from Chinese ingredients.

3/7/2008 12:21:34 AM

it was.

Quote :

"Melamine is the chief suspect related to the Menu Foods recall, first announced four weeks ago for more than 60 million cans and pouches of wet dog and cat food. The melamine in Menu's products was in wheat gluten imported from China and sold to Menu and several other pet-food makers, which also did recalls. The rice protein concentrate was imported from China by San Francisco-based Wilbur-Ellis. Herrick says the concentrate, which is being tested, is suspected to have melamine, as it was the only new ingredient. Recalled Natural Balance products include Venison and Brown Rice canned and dry dog foods, dog treats and Venison and Green Pea dry cat food. "

3/7/2008 8:02:30 AM

this is what i feed my dog. i dont know exactly what it is in this brand that fixed my dogs skin irritations and constant itching, but it worked. and i tried a hanfull of different dog foods.

http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=81&code=123

3/7/2008 9:41:59 PM

when we first got our dog from the shelter last May, we tried to feed her some Purina crap. She basically didn't eat for 2 weeks and when she did, she would barf it back up. We tried mixing in wet food, adding cheese, everything we could think of. We got really worried and called the vet, which of course wanted us to bring her in for Xrays, labs, etc. I wanted to try changing her food first, even though the vet said that was ridiculous "If she was hungry, she would eat..." We definately didn't get her the very best there was, but decided on Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice. It is about $25 for a 20lb bag, but she only needed to eat about half as much as the Purina. As soon as we brought it home, she scarfed the whole bowl. It had no by products, Lamb meal as the first ingredient, rice instead of corn, and it didn't cost more to feed her than ourselves. About a week later, we noticed how much her coat changed, it was really soft and shiny, she had really small poop compared to before and never had any anorexic/bulemic problems again

3/8/2008 7:14:07 AM

Quote :

"I honestly wanted to attend vet school, until I realized how stupid and closed minded most vets are. I'll take the advice of breeders and trainers over vets any day, because they are concerned with the animal's health while the vet wants to make a buck and likes to talk out their ass about something they have NO training or experience with aka nutrition."

Owners like you make me glad that I'm not going into small animal medicine.

But on topic, my dog gets Wellness Core and has been doing great on it. I love their products and Murphy especially loves their jerky treats.

3/8/2008 10:49:27 AM

Quote :

"Owners like you make me glad that I'm not going into small animal medicine."

Having clients that read the JAVMA when you don't, can lead to embarassing situations for the vet. Or clients that ask about the latest AAHA vaccination suggestions, when the vet has no idea what they are (even if they are AAHA accredited).

Don't worry, my doctors have a love/hate relationship with me too. I've found ones that would rather discuss the latest journal articles than go through the same boring 15 minute routine of dealing with mindless idiots, thankfully. Somehow finding vets like this is much harder.

3/8/2008 11:29:08 AM

I'm going to start feeding my dog raw soon. Is there any sort of age you should wait till before you start feeding raw?? She's like 11 weeks old now... Maybe I should break up the chicken bones and stuff more for her to begin with, I dunno...suggestions?

3/8/2008 1:15:34 PM

Quote :

"I'm going to start feeding my dog raw soon. Is there any sort of age you should wait till before you start feeding raw?? She's like 11 weeks old now... Maybe I should break up the chicken bones and stuff more for her to begin with, I dunno...suggestions?"

Check This raw feeding FAQ for info from a breeder that feeds raw http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

I'm not usually a fan of Leerburg, but Cindy Rhodes (the kennel manager) writes the raw articles AFAIK.

I know some breeders that wean their puppies onto raw. Some start with ground food, others chicken necks. Puppies usually go crazy over blenderized organ meat, so you can mix a little of that with the ground chicken if you want. Heart is kind of chewy, so if you want to go from ground to chewy meat to soft bones that might be a good option or tongue. Dogs don't have cholesterol problems like humans so feeding them heart isn't really a problem.

3/8/2008 3:31:29 PM

I fed her a raw chicken wing earlier just to see how she'd react to it and she has been following me around wanting more ever since. So, I think she's going to love it.

Thanks for the link, I was actually reading through that same page earlier...

3/8/2008 3:38:55 PM

Are you going to be making your own food? What recipes/formula have you decided on? What breed is your pup?

3/8/2008 5:07:34 PM

Yeah, another thing that page reminded me of is jack mackerel. My dog went nuts over the stuff but OMG it smelled so awful I'd only open the can outside. Since it has bones in it and lots of omega 3s it's pretty good for them, but do be warned if you ever try it. Or maybe I'm just too sensitive to fish smell, but it's definitely stronger than canned salmon.

Another thing I'd do is when I'd feed her meat without bones (cooked ground beef when her stomach was upset, thanks to the botched bloat surgery) is to give her egg shells. I'd just let them dry on the counter after using the eggs, and I'll never understand why they are so appealing, but if there were egg shells and scrambled eggs on the counter she'd steal the eggshells and leave the eggs.

3/8/2008 5:52:58 PM

all eggshells are is about 90some percent calcium carbonate, maybe you have a calcium defieciency on your hands

3/9/2008 11:36:33 AM

Quote :

"all eggshells are is about 90some percent calcium carbonate, maybe you have a calcium defieciency on your hands"

That's sort of what I figured, the bloat episode must have messed with her mineral absorption. It started after she bloated, and she bloated the second time a couple of years later so no chance to see any long term effects. She got bone meal in her food and the egg shells so it wasn't a lack of calcium in her diet. Yes, I put in a shit ton of bone meal to get the right calcium phosphorus ratio too (no sprinkling it on like salt, it's been a couple years so I can't remember how many tablespoons per lb of meat I used though).

3/9/2008 3:17:51 PM

I feed my dog Disney brand food.


JAYKAY.


Canidae but I'll probably switch to Eaglepack cause his breath stinks like butt and his teeth suck.

3/9/2008 6:10:12 PM

I was about to get the California Natural herring and sweet potato stuff, but its only $21% protein and isn't grain free. maybe i'll try the barking at the moon stuff since I really want high protein

3/10/2008 8:12:12 AM

its worked very well for my dog.

especially with the dry skin issue.

i also use this supplement every other day



[Edited on March 11, 2008 at 9:28 AM. Reason : .]

3/11/2008 9:27:45 AM