I'm pretty happy being a man

I just don't like being told what it is to be a man from testicles like you

3/16/2008 10:01:03 AM

What is it to be a man then?

And where did you learn that from?

3/16/2008 10:02:16 AM

The truth is that I think that the original list (first 5) is not entirely unreasonable. Forcing the volunteer work three times a month is a little different... but I understand the sentiment, and don't really disagree. (Maybe every other weekend would be a bit better though?) And the staying in shape rule makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons .... but "you're not getting fat on my dollar" isn't a fair one. Because here you are implying that it's YOUR dollar. I don't care if you are the one who is paying the bills - by marrying someone and having them keep up the household, you lose the right to claim things as your own - things like money. Staying in shape is a good thing becasue it keeps people happier, more active, more motivated, etc. But implying that your wife owes you a good body because you are paying the bills is chauvanistic. Rules 1-3 are entirely reasonable, and I in particular like that you have indicated a willingness to help with dinner on the weekends.

Not a bad list.

3/16/2008 10:06:47 AM

I'm interested in disrupting concepts of masculinity so that the definition is much more fluid than it presently is

I want this because I think that it will help to eliminate sex and gender discrimination

I learned that eliminating prejudice was good from my parents

3/16/2008 10:14:48 AM

You didn't answer my question.

3/16/2008 10:15:24 AM

omg a girl

someone find that pic quick!

3/16/2008 10:15:31 AM

Quote :

"I see my fair share of utterly worthless pieces of female flesh draining their husbands of all their money while contributing nothing to society"

I think these husbands are letting their wives walk all over them. The rules are made to prevent that. So it's probably not neccessary to have those particular five in place as long as you don't let wifey bend you to her will.

3/16/2008 10:22:55 AM

^Is right. These guys are probably "nice guys" who didn't get shit all through college and got their degree and a fine job. Such men are just content that a woman is finally giving them attention and they are finally getting laid from time to time, which is why they get married.

Their mothers probably wore the pants and pushed over their bitch ass fathers as well.

[Edited on March 16, 2008 at 10:29 AM. Reason : a]

3/16/2008 10:28:31 AM

Quote :

"But implying that your wife owes you a good body because you are paying the bills is chauvanistic"

I think she owes you a good body because if she's home all day and is getting fat, she is clearly sitting on her ass, eating cake, and watching too much Lifetime.

I'd hold the same standard to my husband if I was making all the money and he chose not to work. I don't want to have to let out my rage in a sexual outlet on a fattie.

3/16/2008 10:57:00 AM

The crsc girl post near the top of the page did make me thing that at least some of the money made, if you want to think of money made as being "yours" or "hers" should go to her credit, since she, in a way, does do things like cleaning, taking care of children, things that if she were not there to do would have to be paid for. It seems like you would very much have to contribute some percentage of the "dollar" brought home as hers if the rest of it is going to be "yours" since she is performing services that you would otherwise have to pay for. Just a thought.

Also, just to note: i dont think you were trying to imply the opposite of this, I'm just throwing in my thoughts.

I think, in a stay at home mom type situation, the husband would almost have to look at her role as being more important or of equal importance than the man's going out and working so as not to risk beginning to see your wife as a "freeloader". I think it would be important to enter into it with that state of mind so as to avoid any "I work and you're lazy" feelings. You seem to have the good understanding, at least in some pat, because you were talking about how important it was to raise the children in a loving, family environment.

3/16/2008 11:10:20 AM

The OP did not mention kids. I think that adds an entirely different dimension to the situation. There's a WORLD of difference between a woman staying home to raise a family, and a woman staying home because she doesn't want to work.

3/16/2008 11:42:24 AM

if the woman is a mother taking care of a child, the rules can flex a little more

but if she just sits around all day, you'd think she would do these things out of pure boredom

in between general hospital and all my children, of course.

3/16/2008 11:43:39 AM

can you redefine your question so that I can understand what you mean more clearly?

3/16/2008 12:21:04 PM

Quote :

"That is a tired, worn out, cliche'd argument. I dearly love my wife, and in sharing my life with her have come to realize that her dream is to stay at home and raise/take care of her family. We both believe that the decline of society is in part due to the lack of time and effort that people put into raising a family these days. She thinks that women who want to spend thier life building a career are nuts. If you are a woman, and your goal in life is to have a top notch career, go for it, I am in no way saying women shouldn't have the same chance to make it a man should. But dont fuck up the future by having a kid and 6 weeks later dropping them off at a day care. Kids need the love/nurturing that only thier mother can give them to develop properly. And yes, I am a firm believer that while a man can raise a family, he cant do it nearly as well as a woman can. Raising/keeping a family together, healthy, and happy is tougher than any career you could ever hope to accomplish."

whu? I'm not against stay at home moms. I'm against treating them like second class people. The "5 Rules" say that a stay at home wife owes her husband services in exchange for a free ride on his dollar. (And she better not get fat! ) Free ride my ass. Like you said, raising a family IS a full time job.

Deciding how to run the house should be a discussion between equals. It shouldn't be a husband saying, "you better follow these rules if you want the pleasure of being my stay at home wife"

btw - I was raised in daycare and I turned out alright. or did I???

3/16/2008 3:04:52 PM

Quote :

"The OP did not mention kids. I think that adds an entirely different dimension to the situation. There's a WORLD of difference between a woman staying home to raise a family, and a woman staying home because she doesn't want to work."

Well in my original five rules I didn't include kids because, personally, I don't want them. That indeed does add a completely different dimension to the equation.

Quote :

"Because here you are implying that it's YOUR dollar. I don't care if you are the one who is paying the bills - by marrying someone and having them keep up the household, you lose the right to claim things as your own - things like money."

How about I quit working, where will her half of "our" dollar come from? I'll buy that things become "our" in a partnership, but a partnership is just that.

So, leaving kids out, I think staying in shape is a completely valid requirement. Assuming the man works 40 hours a week (and this is an unlikely assumption in todays world), are you telling me that meal preparation, keeping the house clean and volunteering will take up 40 hours a week? I think not. I'll allow one hour for meal preparation a day (4 hours) plus two hours of grocery shopping a week (6 hours) one hour of "neatening" a day (11 hours), plus three hours for a good scrub down once a week (14 hours), 8 hours of volunteering a week -- this is well above what I'd expect, but for argument's sake -- (22 hours) and an additional 8 hours of reading during the week and you come up with thirty hours total. That leaves ten hours, or two per day to work out.

Quote :

"We both believe that the decline of society is in part due to the lack of time and effort that people put into raising a family these days."

On that I agree. Does it mean that the woman has to stay home? No, I think my parents did a pretty good job of raising my brother and I and my mom worked after we were both back in elementary school. However, I do think that if someone decides to have kids, the kids must come before any other goals, because it is no longer about you. I'm too selfish to give that up (surprise surprise!) and I respect those who do, and those who choose to pursue a career while raising children, more power to them, but you can't have two priorities and you're doing your children and society an injustice by making the children less than number one.

Quote :

"from your original post you realized that you were being provocative I'm simply giving you what you asked for, you unlovable slave master "

Touche good sir, touche. I suppose part of the art of trolling is knowing when to set the hook. I was hoping for a more aggressive prey I suppose, yours was simply dismissive

3/16/2008 9:34:37 PM

ftw!

3/16/2008 9:39:25 PM

I don't think that's too much to ask-- and IMO-- 3 times/month is relatively little if there are no kids involved.

Honestly, I think a wife with a career should still follow atleast 3... if not all... of these "rules."
(granted-- the husband should continue to have responsibilities of his own)

I'm surprised there is no mention of clothes/laundry? I guess this would be bundled with #2?

3/16/2008 9:42:36 PM

OK, maybe this is trolling, but why would any man marry a woman who doesn't want to contribute to society at large? Assuming there are no kids to raise in the picture, what the hell is the point of staying home? I would go batshit crazy. There's only so much home improvement/cleaning/gourmet meal preparation (BTW this last one can take much more than one hour/day) you can do. I guess my point is while the volunteerism is a great idea, why would you even consider spending your life with someone who isn't inclined to leave the house?


Unless you're like my soon-to-be-ex-brother-in-law who was terrified my sister would meet someone who had a regular job and was occasionally sober, but I think he is probably a special case.

3/16/2008 9:59:25 PM

Yeah, bundled in with #2.

Like I said, in a military environment, he's going to have the staying in shape part taken care of (in theory, there are ways around that, but I manage a decent job). I'd probably wind up volunteering with her anyway.


I forgot to respond to this too:

Quote :

"These guys are probably "nice guys" who didn't get shit all through college and got their degree and a fine job. Such men are just content that a woman is finally giving them attention and they are finally getting laid from time to time, which is why they get married."

Drop the college part and you're talking about a fair number of junior service members. These are guys who are away from home for the first time, feel lonely, meet a girl in a bar, don't wholly understand the outside world (who does at 19?) and fall into a relationship. A lot of women were daddy's little princesses when they were growing up, even if their castle was a single wide, and never realized that they might be asked to work. It is kind of sad, especially when they deploy thinking their wife is special, she is "the one" and what they have is different while she blows all his money on fake boobs she'll get tested out numerous times before he ever gets home

3/16/2008 10:00:19 PM

Most wives that would follow those rules probably won't marry you or would rather work.

3/16/2008 10:00:25 PM

yeah this is not just trolling

if this is the way you think about women you're fucked up

3/16/2008 10:02:32 PM

damnit, double post

[Edited on March 16, 2008 at 10:12 PM. Reason : damnit, double post]

3/16/2008 10:11:38 PM

^^ no one who has met me would disagree with that statement

3/16/2008 10:12:01 PM

Quote :

"if this is the way you think about women you're fucked up"

Meh, not entirely....

Just has a different point of view that's yet to be changed

3/16/2008 10:13:46 PM

The biggest problem is that a large percentage of the current generation of females isn't reared to hold the position of 'housewife'--

Home Economics has essentially been removed from the middle/high school experience, and the percentage of females continuing to higher education continues to rise....

I agree with whomever stated they would be bored out of their mind if they didn't work.
Especially in a military setting-- I'd have to keep my mind occupied by something!!
Additionally, I don't understand people who lavishly spend money that they don't earn.

Quote :

"if this is the way you think about women you're fucked up"

How does this view constitute being fucked up? What is your 'less fucked up' view of women, Snewf?

3/16/2008 10:26:20 PM

that they're people

3/16/2008 10:27:40 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "if this is the way you think about women you're fucked up" Meh, not entirely.... Just has a different point of view that's yet to be changed "

nah, he's pretty fucked up.


he is correct in that many people he's met feel that way about him. But bless his heart at least he realizes he is fucked up.


i bet you are a "fixer" arent you? It's not a bad thing to be. Caring is a good thing, along with empathy.

he isnt a "fixer-upper", he is totaled

he's fucked in such a way that Freud would have said DAMN!! that boy needs therapy





now, have i been trolled? yeah, pretty much



OR


maybe ive just wanted to say it for a long time now

3/16/2008 11:27:28 PM

Quote :

"Drop the college part and you're talking about a fair number of junior service members. These are guys who are away from home for the first time, feel lonely, meet a girl in a bar, don't wholly understand the outside world (who does at 19?) and fall into a relationship. A lot of women were daddy's little princesses when they were growing up, even if their castle was a single wide, and never realized that they might be asked to work. It is kind of sad, especially when they deploy thinking their wife is special, she is "the one" and what they have is different while she blows all his money on fake boobs she'll get tested out numerous times before he ever gets home "

That is incredibly sad. And I know it is mostly true.

But this is hard to believe:

Quote :

"A lot of women were daddy's little princesses when they were growing up, even if their castle was a single wide, and never realized that they might be asked to work. "

I mean, you couldn't call my upbringing anything other than po' white trash, but I never got that message and can't even think of any of my friends who did. You're the one seeing this, and I'm sure your perception is accurate to a degree, but the idea of someone not ever wanting to work is just completely foreign to me and I have trouble believing it even of your Fayettenam 'cum dumpsters'.

3/16/2008 11:41:53 PM

ha, you made the thread, cant wait to read it

3/17/2008 2:50:58 AM

^^ Well you went to W&L, there had to be at least a few women there who expected to graduate with their MRS and never have to work a day again in their lives. Now just strip away the trust fund and the veneer of education and you've got the same basic person.

I agree, it is flabbergasting, but you watch some of these women struggle when their husband is deployed the first time and they don't even know how to write a check to cover the phone bill . . .


To be sure, I'm not knocking anyone just because they live in a trailer (I myself lived in one for three years) nor am I knocking all military spouses, there are some utterly amazing ones out there . . . there is just this certain species . . .

3/17/2008 5:12:02 AM

Heh, no, they all went to Sweet Briar. That mindset was *highly* discouraged at W&L, by both genders.

3/17/2008 8:16:14 AM

Quote :

"why would any man marry a woman who doesn't want to contribute to society at large"

winnar

3/17/2008 8:18:50 AM

^^ touche


or Mary Baldwin . . . or probably Southern Sem in your time.



Now Hollins, that was a different story all together, I would have a noose made out of the underwire from a burnt bra hanging around my neck for saying this kind of stuff there

3/17/2008 8:20:04 AM

Military wives are mostly worthless. From what I've seen there are 2 predominant types:

#1. Trailer trash - can't find a guy smart enough to take the Wake Tech route instead of being an IED test dummy. Puts out like a champ when her sweetie is away.

#2. 1950's throwback - stays home, goes to craft fairs, eats a lot, has a special christmas sweatshirt with a snowman embroidered on it, gets beaten up by an IED test dummy and keeps her mouth shut.

#2 would be preferred if I were the type of guy who could barely make it through high school and had to make this choice, but #1 is more useful to me now.

3/17/2008 8:29:12 AM

http://www.islamfortoday.com/how_to_make_your_husband_happy.htm

3/17/2008 8:32:12 AM

This thread demonstrates the danger of supporting and being supported.

We must all be equals. Hierarchy leads to oppression.

Subservience in exchange for money is a devil's bargain.

3/17/2008 8:33:17 AM

Equality is the enemy of liberty.

3/17/2008 8:45:20 AM

Then I guess I hate freedom!

3/17/2008 8:46:22 AM

you can have your matrix good sir!

Quote :

"#2. 1950's throwback - stays home, goes to craft fairs, eats a lot, has a special christmas sweatshirt with a snowman embroidered on it, gets beaten up by an IED test dummy and keeps her mouth shut."

I take exception to that. Not because I really care what the poster has to say but, since I've knocked military wives here, I want to be clear that I'm focusing on a very narrow group.

As for the 1950s throwback stereotype, it is hard to establish a career for yourself when your significant other (be it your husband or wife) is subject to deployments every other year and / or being moved from one geographic location to the other every 5 years. For that reason, military wives do form strong bonds with each other which simply cannot be replicated in the outside world. Also I came up for the "staying in shape rule" partly because I would see wives working out for 2 or 3 hours a day in the gym where I usually lift. These girls are incredible from an aesthetic standpoint and do not remotely fit in with the stereotype.

Just so we're clear.

3/17/2008 9:02:21 AM

The steak will taste just as good and be cruelty free.

3/17/2008 9:22:00 AM

Quote :

"that they're people "

He has said nothing that alluded to women not being people. Pretty much what JCASHFAN is fighting for is some semblance of equality and balance where he isn't the only one contributing to the marriage and doing what makes the other partner happy.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there are a lot of women out there who don't care about cleaning up the house, staying in shape, or really being faithful and have never expected they would have to work. These types range from trailer trash to upper middle class girls who have gone as far to get master's degrees. I'll never forget this one girl i used to work with who was going to a master's program at Wake Forrest and was from an upper middle to upper class background. "I can't wait to get married so i don't have to work any more" Meredith college would also be a prime example of this type of mindset. However, military wives specifically have been known to hold this mindset and also tend to be unfaithful because they've gotten "bored" while being at home all day. If they were taking action on those 5 rules, they'd have something to occupy their time. I know a lot of people in the military and the wife being an unfaithful tramp while the husband is away is by no means an uncommon story.

Its not wrong to have standards and expectations for someone you are supporting and wish to spend your life with.

3/17/2008 9:25:44 AM

^^ you make a sumptious argument.


What prevents us from becoming essentially one mind though? The whole mass of humanity existing as one information source without individuality? (I'm getting bored with talking about women )

[Edited on March 17, 2008 at 9:26 AM. Reason : ^]

3/17/2008 9:26:14 AM

i quit reading this thread for the most part after the first page...

but my only contribution to this is:

i can't cook....but i have land

i think that's a fair trade...

3/17/2008 9:29:33 AM

lets get hitched

3/17/2008 9:29:51 AM

^^ troo

[Edited on March 17, 2008 at 9:31 AM. Reason : ^ back off]

3/17/2008 9:30:53 AM

that's the second marriage proposal i've had on tww in a week...

now i wish i had land in utah so i could be a polygamist

3/17/2008 9:31:02 AM

maybe if you can do that and bone like a porn star.

then yes, cause i can buy my own land.

3/17/2008 9:31:31 AM

^^ meh, that just brings up legal issues . . . open marriage ftw

3/17/2008 9:31:35 AM

haha, I KID I KID

i back off, per the request of JCASHFAN

3/17/2008 9:31:44 AM

Individuality is a tricky concept to begin with. We're already influenced by all manner of outside forces, most of them unnoticed. The group mind could happen, but wouldn't have to include all intelligences. I agree coming technologies will blur the lines of self. The world becomes more postmodern with every passing day.

Going back to the original topic, this bit from Odo seems appropriate:

For we each of us deserve everything, every luxury that was piled in the tombs of the dead kings, and we each of us deserve nothing, not a mouthful of bread in hunger. Have we not eaten while another starved? Will you punish us for that? Will you reward us for the virtue of starving while others ate? No man earns punishment, no man earns reward. Free your mind of the idea of deserving, the idea of earning, and you will begin to be able to think.

3/17/2008 9:34:01 AM