[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2008 12:48:21 PM

Thats not a picture of a real ghost cycle, you can tell from the pixels.

4/24/2008 12:50:04 PM

and yet people still fucking ride bikes

4/24/2008 12:50:43 PM

and yet people still fucking drive cars

4/24/2008 12:51:29 PM

For James and the others,

I don't really see how its hard to comprehend the need for bikers to ride on the roads- especially ones such as hillsborough street. If you're traveling between 15 and 25mph on a sidewalk that is very dangerous for the rider, especially if they're using a road bike. overall dumb drivers cause way more hassle on the roads than bikers do. perhaps that should be the focus of your bitching rather than the ur dur thats a bike mentality that you have derived due to being raised in the US where lazy asses surrender their bike usage once they reach 16

4/24/2008 12:51:48 PM

To be fair, I'm not necessarily bitching, it just started as an honest question that quickly filled up with rants.

4/24/2008 12:54:06 PM

It is not illegal to ride on a sidewalk

http://www.ncdot.org/transit/bicycle/laws/laws_bikelaws.html

it is however illegal to walk on the street if a sidewalk is provided. just thought that was interesting.

Quote :

"(d) Where sidewalks are provided, it shall be unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent roadway. Where sidewalks are not provided, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall, when practicable, walk only on the extreme left of the roadway or its shoulder facing traffic which may approach from the opposite direction. Such pedestrian shall yield the right-of-way to approaching traffic."

4/24/2008 12:57:01 PM

Quote :

"Also, you piss me off."

sorry it was just given the above, i took it as some bitching, and bearing the fact that its the drivers choice to speed up and then slow down immediately again when they can tell they're behind a biker they need to pass also filled me with the pitty me i'm a helpless victim of circumstance with no other solution vibe.

if its an honest question that you want answered, then see my above comment. I'm sure you and others also have other questions or comments on the issue and i'd be glad to address and and all of them as long as they are concise and coherent.

Honestly, I don't even bike, but its easy for me to see why they belong on the road and not the sidewalk. However, it could simply be because i'm open-minded and tend to evaluate situations intellectually as opposed to overreact emotionally.

4/24/2008 1:00:02 PM

Quote :

"not the middle, as far right as possible"

actually, we're perfectly legally entitled to ride in the middle of the [non-interstate] lane. suck it.

Quote :

"Get more bike lanes"

sorry, city council's too busy banning sink disposals


I mean, as you're throwing something out the window at a bicyclist,

are you thinking, "damn you for not magically making bike lanes appear to ride in!!"

oh I'm sorry; I'll just quit my job, sell my house, and move somewhere that already has bike lanes

4/24/2008 1:01:43 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afX6VYn48KE

4/24/2008 1:03:19 PM

wasn't that shit in a another thread?

4/24/2008 1:04:49 PM

It's aggravating at times, but I certainly respect their right to travel however they wish.

I made this thread after getting stuck behind 12 cars on Hillsborough who were all stuck behind a guy on a bike who was oblivious to what was going on. It made me question the environmental benefits of biking and disrupting traffic flow. I think that the Hillsborough street revitalization should definitely include some infrastructure for this, such as dedicated bike lanes.

4/24/2008 1:05:52 PM

^4theres no need to subject to being that way. sure, its one way to handle a discussion but this can be handled with simple logistics.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:07 PM. Reason : ^+2]

i agree with that point. however, given the current design of the street and its sides it would make it difficult at best to add bike lanes to both sides. Also, as another point of interest, one of the best official city of raleigh bike ways starts on hillsborough street. I think that could be the source of your pains.

That biker should have been more aware, as should some drivers in many circumstances, but biking clearly saves gas, as does walking, or anything that involves reduction in use of an automobile ... as long as its being done as a replacement mode for transportation and not just exercise.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:10 PM. Reason : ^for josh]

4/24/2008 1:06:59 PM

392 and aaronburro. fuck off. seriously. i ride a motorcycle. if a car hits and kills me, everyone will be sad, but no one will be surprised. yet everyone is always so fucking amazed when someone kills a cyclist. dont mention that they are slow as hell, cant keep up with traffic, arent loud enough to become visible, and just arent big enough to be seen easily. no cop is going to ticket a cyclist on a sidewalk unless he isnt wearing a helmet or he is goign 15mph through school children. they have bigger criminals to arrest. like brian reid. they are precious few laws where safety makes it a priority to break them. this is one. cyclists need to stay on the sidewalk, or stay off buzy streets as much as possible.

Quote :

"It's aggravating at times, but I certainly respect their right to travel however they wish."

except when they are impeding proper flow of traffic. is 80% of traffic were cyclists, itd be another story. but they are 0.05%, they dont matter until they become a problem. its their job to keep themselves safe.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:19 PM. Reason : s]

4/24/2008 1:10:58 PM

^^ I said that with the assumption that the city is still planning on reducing Hillsborough to two lanes of traffic and would have a few feet of asphalt to get rid of.

4/24/2008 1:14:25 PM

^^
You ride a motorcycle and no one will be surprised if you get hit probably because they go really fast, weave in and out of traffic, are obnoxiously loud, some times are not visible, and don't appear big enough to be allowed on highways.

As for the bigger criminal argument, i find that to be a little fallacious. Cops often ticket based on providing a reasonable need for their continued need and existence. If no one is getting tickets then why are cops needed? A bored cop will ticket anyone for anything, and have often times arrested people who are generally doing no serious harm. You won't find any trouble getting someone else to agree with that statement.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:15 PM. Reason : ugh, moving to quotes]

^

Yeah, but that likely won't happen because then you lose parking for businesses, which is a concern given there aren't readily available spots in close proximity that would act as suitable replacements.
e.g. in front of el rodeo. no library parking and no dining parking if the lanes are reduced. cars can't park in biking lanes.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:18 PM. Reason : jgj.r.]

4/24/2008 1:15:39 PM

I'm sure they can figure something out. They have a civil engineer or two on payroll (I hope).

4/24/2008 1:20:39 PM

hardly anything that wouldn't be largely obtrusive and costly. however, thats never stopped them before. yet, given what i've seen performed by this city so far, i'm not going to put in much hope for such to be resolved neither soon nor suitably

4/24/2008 1:22:37 PM

^^^ Wow, not only do you not know anything about the average motorcyclist, you know nothing about how the police in a real city work. Cops in Raleigh are never bored. There is always something for them to do. Down in the lower districts, it is more important to go patrol the ghetto for shootings than it is to sit on avent ferry looking to ticket cyclists. If something quick and easy falls into their lap, they may take it. A cop (except cary and maybe durham) will NOT ticket a cyclist on the sidewalk unless he is going way way too fast for the pedestrians or is sans helmet.

Motorcycles are small, and it is one of the top reasons they get hit. The bikers riding gixxers and r6s with no gear, shorts and flip flops doing 80 and weaving are not actual bikers. they are organ donors and no one cares what happens to them since they obviously do not care about themselves. but thanks for playing!

^^ they are city engineers. they wont expand a road until it is completely gridlocked every day for 5 years. by the time they are done, it needs to be bigger anyways.

V improbable ticket, or death?

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:25 PM. Reason : ^^]

4/24/2008 1:23:22 PM

Quote :

"When riding on a roadway, a bicyclist must ride in the same direction as other traffic. Also, the bicyclist must travel in the right-hand lane and should ride as close as practicable to the right-hand edge of the highway. [§20-146(a)] Exceptions to this law are provided when the bicyclist is making these maneuvers: · Passing another vehicle moving in the same direction [§20-146(a)(1)] · Avoiding a dangerous obstruction [§20-146(a)(2)] · Riding on a one-way street [§20-146(a)(4)] · Preparing for a left turn. [§20-146(e)]"

4/24/2008 1:24:05 PM

Until cyclists actually obey traffic laws they deserve every bit of criticism they get. IMO, if you can't reasonably keep up with the flow of traffic you don't belong on that particular road. Yes, you're legally allowed there, but do you really think it's a good idea to ride on roads with >35 mph speed limits? You congest traffic, endanger yourself, and endanger those around you.

4/24/2008 1:30:07 PM

Quote :

"392 and aaronburro. fuck off. seriously"

whooa there shitbreath

didn't you see where I clearly said

Quote :

"when I ride my bike, I generally stay out of the way of cars except for when I can't, in which case they need to get the fuck off my ass"

^^
thanks for that

if I ever get pulled for riding my bike in the middle of the lane (which I don't do)

I'll just say, "I was avoiding a curbside obstruction" or "I was preparing to turn left" -- problem solved


^
why not advocate for bike lanes, instead of preaching?

4/24/2008 1:34:22 PM

That was actually for all those ghost bike pictures you posted. more awareness and less action. its what this country is good at.

4/24/2008 1:39:24 PM

^^^so if they're outlawed from the sidewalk and they shouldn't reasonably be on the road, then where do you suggest they ride, especially in situations where its replacing transportation.

Quote :

"Wow, not only do you not know anything about the average motorcyclist"

Quote :

"not actual bikers. they are organ donors and no one cares what happens to them since they obviously do not care about themselves. but thanks for playing!"

Is it your intent to convey that no matter the number of people who conduct themselves in the fashion you admitted is common that they don't depict the "average motorcyclist" nor are they to be considered when forming an opinion of how motorcyclist act? I ask because this seems to be the exact pattern of thought you used to form your opinions on bicyclist. Its a little hypocritical IMO. Also, I don't play with little children.

Quote :

"you know nothing about how the police in a real city work. Cops in Raleigh are never bored. There is always something for them to do."

Yeah, such as hand out misdemeanors for throwing a party even when no one has called and reported the party as a nuisance. Perhaps you meant harass college kids who they find has weed on them at some point? Trust me, i've lived in raleigh for a long time and know more about the police here than you do. It would be helpful if you spoke mostly about things that you know. However, I will allow some leniency because i don't believe you should have to remain mute.





[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 1:44 PM. Reason : ^]

4/24/2008 1:40:36 PM

So living here means you know how the police work, ok, cause that makes sense. If a party is above a certain decibel level at a certain time of night in a certain city, its a citation. Otherwise its BS ticket that can and should be fought.

You actually didnt understand what i said about common or average biker, but thats ok since it was a very small party of my argument. The squids are fundmentally different from responsible bikers in the same way the maniacs doing 90 in school zones are different from the majority of drivers. unfortunetly the majority of bikers in this area (campus) tend to be squids, which is why they shouldnt be taken seriously.

drugs laws are retarded. almost every cop agrees with that. but if they see something illegal, they have to something about it, and most of the time they dont decide the punishment, a judge does.

4/24/2008 1:51:25 PM

Bike lanes would be a fantastic idea! It's definitely the way to go, but Raleigh is a horribly designed and run city so don't expect it happen any time soon.

A bike going 20 mph on a 45 mph road is every bit as dangerous to the traffic on the road as a car going 20 mph, and much, much more dangerous to themselves. Going 20 mph below traffic speed is almost as dangerous as going 20 mph over traffic speed. Why subject yourself and others to that kind of situation.

Yes, legally you're allowed to be there, but practically it's not safe for you or others.

4/24/2008 1:55:44 PM

Is Raleigh run any worse or better than any other city?

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 2:07 PM. Reason : or better.]

4/24/2008 2:06:58 PM

It's one of the worst planned cities I've ever seen. Just look at a map some time of say, Raleigh vs. another city of comparable size that is also in a flat, low elevation area.

4/24/2008 2:09:23 PM

nice qualitative analysis homie--you're sure to give operations researchers a run for their money

4/24/2008 2:17:04 PM

Quote :

"biking clearly saves gas, as does walking, or anything that involves reduction in use of an automobile"

does it really save gas if you've delayed the commute of 30 cars by 15 minutes since you are going 15 in a 45 on your bike?

4/24/2008 2:20:02 PM

Quote :

"Yes, legally you're allowed to be there, but practically it's not safe for you or others."

You never addressed where they should bike otherwise when involving transportation purposes. If one is going to make claims of practicality then that needs to be addressed, since weighing of options is what decides if something is practical or not. Also, speak in terms of current infrastructure since that is around what this discussion is based, should you choose to address it.

Quote :

"So living here means you know how the police work, ok, cause that makes sense. If a party is above a certain decibel level at a certain time of night in a certain city, its a citation. Otherwise its BS ticket that can and should be fought."

Yes. Also a party here is a misdemeanor, which is different than simply citation. They can be fought but the result is typically community service and large fines. Either way, it takes a lot of time out of the day for your otherwise "busy police down in lower districts" to drive around and look for these things when they could be researching shootings, as you suggested.

Quote :

"but if they see something illegal, they have to something about it, and most of the time they dont decide the punishment, a judge does."

cops use discretion all the time, they could decide to do something or not do something about it. moreover, i never said they decide the punishment. i'm not hear to bash cops, however, i am pointing out the time involved in them making the arrest, taking them downtown, having them booked and then showing up for many repeating court appearances despite how endlessly busy you suggest that they may be.

Quote :

"You actually didnt understand what i said"

Quote :

"The squids are fundmentally different from responsible bikers"

Actually i would go as far to say that i understood precisely what you meant, and that is why i posed the question why is it okay for you to use the rationalization about all bicyclist when forming your opinions since its obvious two separate groups can exist within the same set. I was pointing out your hypocrisy. Reasonably, it would stand now, that i should have been pointing out your lack of reading comprehension.

Quote :

"does it really save gas if you've delayed the commute of 30 cars by 15 minutes since you are going 15 in a 45 on your bike?"

One could argue that if their RPMs are lower at 30 than at 45 then the amount of time they are traveling extra does not actually indicate an increase in gas usage. However, i will refrain from that argument because given higher speeds can some times result in better mpg and without test the point would be lose some of its merit. Much in the same way an arbitrary calculation of additional travel time increase thats an obvious exaggeration would.




[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 2:25 PM. Reason : vix]

4/24/2008 2:20:31 PM

Most cars pass me without trouble.

4/24/2008 2:27:44 PM

i figured this thread would be talking about the time lost that you use riding a bike on a car trip that would otherwise take like 5 minutes fodriving

4/24/2008 2:32:30 PM

Quote :

"nice qualitative analysis homie--you're sure to give operations researchers a run for their money"

A quick look at a map of Raleigh reveals a hell of a lot. If you're going to argue that this place is not suffering from urban sprawl and the accompanying problems then you're either blind or retarded. Raliegh's rapid, unplanned growth is the cause of most of it's current difficulties from public schools to roads.

4/24/2008 2:35:33 PM

Quote :

"It's one of the worst planned cities I've ever seen."

To be fair, the only legitimately planned part is downtown within the confines of north, east, south and west streets. The population in 1900 was only 13,000 people and Hillsborough Street used to be the equivalent of what Cary is now.

I don't really have a problem with the planning of the city so much as I have with the management of it, primarily thier inability to focus on pressing issues because they're too busy shooting themselves in the foot over something else.

4/24/2008 2:55:27 PM

Quote :

"Until cyclists actually obey traffic laws they deserve every bit of criticism they get. "

wtf? What about me, what if I obey every traffic law, should I still be lumped in with the non abiding riders?

Thats the same as saying that all Mexicans came to the US illegally. Or that all black people like escalades with dubs. Or that all (insert "race/nationality/culture") does (insert "perceived typical behavior of that group")

idiot

4/24/2008 2:55:51 PM

Quote :

"If you're going to argue that this place is not suffering from urban sprawl and the accompanying problems then you're either blind or retarded"

almost every city in america has a problem with suburban sprawl--i see no reason to think that raleigh is particularly bad

4/24/2008 3:01:01 PM

Quote :

"To be fair, the only legitimately planned part is downtown within the confines of north, east, south and west streets. The population in 1900 was only 13,000 people and Hillsborough Street used to be the equivalent of what Cary is now. "

Exactly my point, no planning was ever really done and the people in charge seem to have an almost staggering lack of foresight. Very few cities have had as much rapid, unchecked growth in the last decade as Raleigh. Take a quick look at our air quality. It's bad compared to cities of comparable size, this is almost a direct result of traffic. You just don't see the kind of traffic issues and air pollution that Raleigh has in say... Phoenix, AZ despite it being a larger city.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:12 PM. Reason : hsgh]

4/24/2008 3:11:05 PM

I think the big problem is that Raleigh growth didn't pick up substantially until the post-WWII era when sprawl became possible. As such it became a town with sprawl, but without a significantly built up downtown area or a dense downtown populace. Now that downtown is becoming a bit more of a population center it's becoming obvious that the transportation infrastructure is woefully inadequate. Part of this is due to the fact that downtown population was still relatively small and centralized in the first half of the twentieth century when larger cities were putting the beginnings of their public transportation systems in place (to be fair we did have an extensive street car line until 1933, when it was decided that buses would be more effective). We're at an interesting point now because we have no aging system to maintain or replace so the possibilities of what to do are nearly endless, although we're still not at the critical mass that would make any large scale project economical.

Little know bit about the death of the american street car:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:16 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2008 3:14:56 PM

as an aside, i saw an urban planning internship with the city the other day--you can help build the raleigh of tomorrow...

4/24/2008 3:18:38 PM

growth in the Raleigh/Durham metro area is up about 30% over the last 7-8 years, and we're still doing precisely dick about planning. That's my major problem. Shit, compare Raleigh to Cary. One is well planned (almost to the point of being maddening and ridiculous) the other is nearly the opposite. It's just not a good situation. Raleigh is being entirely reactive rather than proactive in it's approach to the city's inevitable growth.

4/24/2008 3:19:52 PM

I've got a job, why would I want an internship? Plus, I'm trying to get the fuck out of this city.

4/24/2008 3:21:10 PM

always such a negative nancy...

4/24/2008 3:24:13 PM

Quote :

"growth in the Raleigh/Durham metro area is up about 30% over the last 7-8 years"

I may be wrong, but I'm sure that a good majority of those are in suburbs that are accessed by 540. While they deserve some praise for having the foresight to build a really big round road over the course of the next 80 years, it's a step in the opposite direction of any economical form of public transportation.

4/24/2008 3:24:33 PM

Look, if you need to know whether a city without major hills/mountains or rivers/lakes is laid out properly just grab a map. If it isn't in a fucking grid it's being run by fucktards.

4/24/2008 3:26:57 PM

Kurtis636 the problems you find with raleigh you'll find with any NC town (and most southern towns) that began to really grow, as Joshua said, after WWII. My advice is to pretty much suck it up or find a way to personally finance a change.

[Edited on April 24, 2008 at 3:27 PM. Reason : 636]

4/24/2008 3:27:11 PM

I'm well aware that it's a problem that's common, but it doesn't need to be a continuing, growing problem as seems to be the case here.

4/24/2008 3:31:41 PM

seems to be the case here anywhere with continuing growth.

4/24/2008 3:39:40 PM

What can you do about it except for hinder new construction outside a certain range or designate a greenbelt?

4/24/2008 3:43:07 PM

set em up

4/25/2008 10:34:31 AM