anyone who believes 9/11 was an "inside job" complete with explosives, is a fucking Retard.

[/thread]

4/9/2008 7:29:48 PM

Well here, if anyone needs confirmation on the missing heat, an experiment.

Take a flimsy steel spoon, like the kind found in a cafeteria. Carefully bend it back and forth, progressively faster. Now touch the bend.

It's going to hurt like a bitch and a half, and why? Because the strain energy of the steel releases heat. Imagine now the heat of an entire building of steel bending and collapsing in upon itself and you see where this is going.

4/9/2008 7:31:05 PM

Well.

Not exactly, DaBird.

Break out your Reynold's Wrap, folks. We're moving into the rationally speculative side of this debate. Fuck the salisburyboy drivel.

I'm probably opening a huge can of worms, but I know for a fact that there are enough military brass around who'd love to eat me alive to take the bait if I fuck this up. I'll consider them relative experts on this subject matter as I've got vets in my family who taught me about this.

You familiar with compartmentalization?

It's the process by which the atomic bomb was built. All intelligence organizations and businesses use it to leverage power and keep secrets about their methods to this day. It's how the scientists were kept in the dark about what it was they were actually doing until it was too late for them to do anything to prevent the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

In a process by which all information is distributed on a "need to know" basis, only a few select people need know the full details of any plan. So long as all the parts understand only their jobs, whether they understand why they're actually doing them or not, and carry them out, the why can always remain a valuable and tightly controlled secret among only a few individuals.

I don't consider it unreasonable to propose that the 19 hijackers may have been duped into doing so, but for some much larger aim that had nothing to do with their interests at all, at all.

I'll demonstrate an incomplete scenario I'm just going to wing and go nuts with:

Larry Silverstein (sayeth the salisburyboy: OMF JEWEY RICH GUY WITH MONAY!!1 LEASE HOLDER OF WTC!!1) wires $500,000 to Pakistan, as a "loan" to a "friend" or "friendly company" we know as X, who then gives that money to Mohammed Atta. Through the use of those funds, much of 9/11 was carried out.

Why?

Because Larry Silverstein's friend or friendly company was his (let's pretend) anonymous attorney who advised him to buy a $15 million policy on the WTC. That decision made him $7 BILLION dollars, a 467% return on investment. Beats the fuck out of T-bills, eh? And the attorney gets to share in the proceeds for his silence.

I mean, everything else was already in place. Silverstein just had to provide the dough.

Do I believe this scenario?

Not at all. But not because I have my doubts that it could've involved fewer parties than the two mentioned to have known the whole story. Everyone else could've just been caught up in their own trip trying to go Muslim Cowboy on America.

Two men, I'd argue, can keep a secret. Especially over a few billion dollars each.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 8:07 PM. Reason : ...]

4/9/2008 8:00:48 PM

I love these threads sooo much. All the same mofo's that are constantly calling George Bush the biggest idiot president ever also like to accuse his administration of pulling off the biggest conspiracy in the history of the US.

Please.

If Noam Chomsky laughs at your conspiracy theory, then you know it's time to pack it in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoDqDvbgeXM&feature=related

As a rule of thumb, anything that Alex Jones has attached his name to should be viewed as comedy.

4/9/2008 8:13:56 PM

lava was caught on several tapes pouring out of one of the windows of the world trade center before it collapsed...

4/9/2008 8:17:00 PM

I don't accuse Bush of shit besides being a failed business man, incurious, and a wreckless steward of an otherwise well-constructed Constitutional Republic. To call him a mastermind of any such plot would be a tragic statement of your own idiocy.

And I've read the book on Chomsky. I can run upstairs and take a picture of it. Literally. He leaves the window open on a conspiracy, but one that doesn't involve the President orchestrating 9/11.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 8:24 PM. Reason : ^ Lava? LAVA? Howard. We're losing the respectable signal:noise ratio here, buddy.]

4/9/2008 8:22:23 PM

compartmentalization fails once a civilian variable is introduced. within a governmental or militaristic application, you are right. here, there would be many of these variables in place were this 'conspiracy' to have happened.

4/9/2008 8:36:01 PM

Really?

Were the people working on the bomb not civilian contractors?

I mean, this is how the SR-71 was built, too. Civilians can be introduced into a compartmentalized system. At some magical point an individual does transform from a civilian to a non-civilian after all, right?

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 8:39 PM. Reason : ...]

4/9/2008 8:38:24 PM

it was thermite coming out of the tower. thats what melted the steel

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qitq-a9DXBU

4/9/2008 8:40:19 PM

^^ Well the problem with compartmentalization keeping this conspiracy secret would be that even if you keep people in the dark about what they're doing, when it finally and publicly happens, you're still relying on all of those people not putting it together. Despite the compartmentalization, I doubt anyone who worked on the atom bomb didn't know after the end of WWII. Similarly, after this, even if you were compartmentalized, you would need to not connect the dots and keep you mouth shut if you did.

^ Right, because no other material in the world could have spilled glowing out of the flaming inferno holes in the tower.

4/9/2008 8:59:45 PM

^ The hijackers all died. That leaves Silverstein and X. X may only incidentally have known of Atta, who is now dead. That would be "all those people."

That was pretty easy.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 9:14 PM. Reason : pretty unlikely too]

4/9/2008 9:07:22 PM

Gamecat Your Silverstein scenario is in fact a true conspiracy theory. You know, unprovable, untraceable, etc (Without time displacement equipment anyway)

The thermite theory is just as bogus as any other controlled demolition, for the same reasons. Placing the amount of thermite strategically all over the building in such a way as to bring down a building would be impossible to do without detection. It simply involves too many people.

Chomsky has the right idea, power systems all over the world benefited, but it's highly improbable that it was an inside job.

4/9/2008 9:07:27 PM

Quote :

"Your Silverstein scenario is in fact a true conspiracy theory."

What?

Quote :

"You know, unprovable, untraceable, etc (Without time displacement equipment anyway)"

Unprovable? Untraceable? What is this shit?

Aren't we talking about large financial transactions here?

No one would need time displacement. These types of records are kept for ages. All it takes is the proper authority and mandate to seek them.

I've changed the details of the official explanation only slightly. Basically, I filled in a detail the 9/11 Commission Report left curiously blank, admittedly, with whatever I could think of off the top of my head.

I don't know. After reading quite a bit of Chomsky and similar authors, part of me wonders what the differences between an inside-job and and outside-job really exist. The bomb and missile shit smells funky to me, though.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 9:15 PM. Reason : ...]

4/9/2008 9:12:38 PM

^^^ But its not that simple. Someone would have had to know that all the pieces were in place to prompt Silverstein, and that person had to have connections to put all the pawns into place, and those people and so on and so forth. That isn't to say that the person who pulled the trigger so to speak wasn't Silverstein or whoever you want to blame, but for that trigger to be pulled, more than just 3 people need to be involved. If someone isn't putting the pieces into place, then everything just lines up in coincidences and sure, you still have a conspiracy, but it's a conspiracy to commit insurance fraud rather than a conspiracy to generate the NWO or something like that.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 9:17 PM. Reason : ^^^]

4/9/2008 9:16:45 PM

Quote :

"The 9/11 Commission Report leaves open enough questions -- even if for stupidly political, state secret-related, or otherwise less sinister reasons than direct involvement -- that the events of 9/11 should IMHO be restudied comprehensively. Even if to establish once and for all that IN FACT, 19 hijackers from a loosely-knit terrorist organization known as Al Qaeda, run by Osama Bin Laden, crashed four commercial airplanes into various targets and a field to further their strategic aims of establishing a Caliphate."

wow, these are my thoughts exactly, but better thought out than what I would have ever devoted the time to do.

I think we should have lots of reports on this to be honest. There were enough eyebrow raisers - to say the least. The conspiracy theorists do all kinds of things with purported "demolition experts" and stuff regarding this, but why not just ask a real expert to do an analysis and report the findings, good or bad.

I, in no way, believe there were conspiracies involved, either the weak or strong versions. I think the administration sucked a big dick letting this happen, but that's completely different. At the same time though, I am not satisfied with the 911 commission report. It just doesn't cut it.

The war on terror also sucked a big dick. As a US citizen looking back now, I am simply not satisfied with how our government handled the event. Respectively, I devote some time to listening to what the crazies have to say about it, but the event itself was unprecedented, just not a deception.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 10:03 PM. Reason : I didn't reallize the thread had 2 pages - I'm done now, really.]

4/9/2008 10:02:21 PM

^^^

Quote :

"A good conspiracy is unprovable. I mean, if you can prove it, it means they screwed up somewhere along the line."

Nevermind. If you didn't get the reference, then you're clearly taking this threat too seriously.

4/9/2008 10:12:29 PM

Quote :

"Okay, take the blackwater admin out of the equation - you still don't think that's odd? Sure you don't, it's completely normal for an extraordinary number of put options to appear in someone's portfolio 2 days and the day before 2 planes smash into buildings"

You're right. I don't think it's odd.



American Airlines stock reached a high of $38.40 on July 16, 2001. The stock closed at $29.70 on September 10--a drop of 22.7% in two months. AMR lost 8.0% in the week leading up to September 11.

In other words, there were plenty of reasons for investors to either sell American Airlines short or buy puts in the days leading up to September 11, 2001. And none of those reasons involve a conspiracy.

4/9/2008 10:19:07 PM

The 911 stock trades were extraordinary... it wasn't a result of some genius stock broker. The put options in the week before the attacks were 100X normal

4/9/2008 11:05:06 PM

I miss salisburyboy.

Quote :

"these are the only three steel buildings ever to collapse to due to fire."

That's absolute horse shit. I can think of three other structures off the top of my head.

Quote :

"A pool of molten steel was at ground zero after the collapse, which is why the fire burned on for an unusually long time."

The fire burned for a long time because the building collapsed into it's basement with 110 stories worth of office furniture, office supplies, paper, and jet fuel, essentially creating a furnace. I'm not saying that a pool of molten steel is out of the question, but I'd like more than anecdotal evidence before I consider it a fact.

Quote :

"Also free fall can only be reached when an object falls without resistence. with 60+ stories of solid unweakened steel below it should have taken at least 45 seconds for the building to collapse by the "domino effect" which is claimed to have happened. Instead the buildings both feel in about ten seconds which is not much more than it would have taken for the building to fall freely or unrestricted."

No one has ever called it the "domino effect".

"In every photo and every video, you can see columns far outpacing the collapse of the building. Not only are the columns falling faster than the building but they are also falling faster than the debris cloud which is ALSO falling faster than the building. This proves the buildings fell well below free fall speed. That is, unless the beams had a rocket pointed to the ground.

Just look at any video you like and watch the perimeter columns.

Deceptive videos stop the timer of the fall at 10:09 when only the perimeter column hits the ground and not the building itself. If you notice, the building just finishes disappearing behind the debris cloud which is still about 40 stories high."

http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

Quote :

"Explain the extraordinary American Airlines put options by the bank once headed by a senior member of blackwater's administration"

They looked into that. It was part of a much larger options spread. I do similar things all the time
as an options trader.

Quote :

"They reported a car bomb had exploded in D.C."

It was allegedly at the State Department as I recall.

Quote :

"You familiar with compartmentalization?"

None of the people who planted explosives at the WTC, created fake terrorist identities, bolted pods to airliners, remotely piloted airliners into buildings, etc etc ever realized that they played a role in 9/11 and came forward? Wow, I'm amazed such a bunch of dumbasses could pull of the greatest conspiracy in history.

Quote :

"Larry Silverstein wires $500,000 to Pakistan, as a "loan" to a "friend" or "friendly company" we know as X, who then gives that money to Mohammed Atta."

Because most New York jews are just one phone call away from an al Qaeda financier. Also, Silverstein took over the lease just 7 weeks before 9/11. All of the terrorists were in the US with pilot licenses at that point.

Quote :

"lava was caught on several tapes pouring out of one of the windows of the world trade center before it collapsed..."

I will concede that Pele, the volcano god, may have played a role. Oddly enough the 9/11 commission made no mention of him.

Quote :

"it was thermite coming out of the tower. thats what melted the steel"

There's honestly too much evidence against that for me to even go into detail about it.

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

Quote :

"The 911 stock trades were extraordinary... it wasn't a result of some genius stock broker. The put options in the week before the attacks were 100X normal"

Back that up with a link. You've already made it obvious that you don't know shit about put options.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 11:25 PM. Reason : .]

4/9/2008 11:24:41 PM

Honkeyball: I still didn't get the reference. Some movie I haven't seen?

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: But its not that simple."

Just why the hell not?



My little scenario gives away the big part everyone gives a fuck about: "Why?"

I mean, it's still total bullshit. But I don't expect the truth is far from as simple a motivation as greed.

So X is now an attorney who has contacts in the intelligence services of Pakistan. He got drunk/high/whatever at a bar with some dude who was like, "hey man, I can totally make you that $3 billion you were talkin' about. our AQ infiltrating dude found out about this plan by this crazy terrorist group. they just need a little $texas, dig?"

Intelligence guy's just thinking, "HELL YES PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF, I GOT U AN ALLY. CAN I HAVE MY PROMOTION NOW PLZ?"

The plotters are clueless about the enabler. The money is manna from heaven, or some unnamed go-between. They're waging jihad, and don't ask where the money comes from.

The infiltrator never knew anything.

Musharraf could've maintained plausible deniability, if the ISI ever bothered to inform him in the first place.

We're now at 3 people. Hardly a massive army of black-helicopter wielding NWO operatives.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: If someone isn't putting the pieces into place, then everything just lines up in coincidences and sure, you still have a conspiracy, but it's a conspiracy to commit insurance fraud rather than a conspiracy to generate the NWO or something like that."

Oh. Well, yeah. I wasn't going down that road a bit. Overarching conspiracy is just too difficult to maintain. Unless that Bilderberg shit has any truth to it. Apply compartmentalization to any organization of such incredible power and you're talking downright spooky possibilities. But I haven't done any homework on that dark closet.

Seems logical that 9/11 could have simply been a crime of opportunity. Given the civil liberties we've given up since then, I certainly hope history views it that way. What in the hell else would we have given them up for?

No, you wisely observe an incidental conspiracy is still a conspiracy. Even the official explanation (think about it, coordination among 19 different hijackers requires it) is a conspiracy theory. Doesn't matter if it's to implement some vague concept of an Orwellian hell ruled by wealthy elites, establish some new Reich, or to make a few billion dollars at the flip of a switch.

I'd say the key pieces in a compartmentalized information system (like a terrorist group) could all be acting independently from those who finance them (X and Silverstein, or whatever boogeyman you like). Events like 9/11 and the JFK assassination--even by official records and with respect to official conclusions--occur when coincidence, opportunity, and motive meet.

Quote :

"Mr. Joshua: Because most New York jews are just one phone call away from an al Qaeda financier. Also, Silverstein took over the lease just 7 weeks before 9/11. All of the terrorists were in the US with pilot licenses at that point."

Make no mistake, broker. In this scenario, our New York Jew is the financier. He could've planned to take over the lease all along (right?). This was just something he folded into his investment portfolio and filed under "labor."

"Friendly company" could have many meanings. And as I think on it, Silverstein would only have to know so much. I also didn't imply he had any knowledge of or desire to support rebels who'd totally love to kill him, us, those of his religion, etc. Only that they could earn him a 466% rate of return on a $15 million investment within 8 years.

That's rather huge. Especially to folks like you me with Series 7s.

I mean, Silverstein is interchangeable with any number of other profiteers off of this madness.

[Edited on April 9, 2008 at 11:40 PM. Reason : ...]

4/9/2008 11:28:12 PM

I don't believe that the U.S. government orchestrated the 9-11 attack; however, I have always been curious about the supposed 9-11 hijacker who turned up alive. I could understand a stolen identity and also faulty intelligence, but I've always found it somewhat curious.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

4/10/2008 3:45:19 AM

Quote :

"The 911 stock trades were extraordinary... it wasn't a result of some genius stock broker. The put options in the week before the attacks were 100X normal"

Do you have anything at all to back this up?

Who said anything about genius stock brokers?

Why are puts on an already declining stock 'extraordinary'?

You say the puts were '100X normal'. Normal compared to what?

Was there other activity to indicate that other investors were also bearish on AMR, e.g. short selling, decreased buying, increased downward volume, negative news, labor issues, etc.?

Do you have anything at all? Anything other than the classic conspiracy theorist cop-out: "I'm not even going to get into it. There's plenty of proof all over the place."

Are you going to continue to hope that if you say this enough times, it'll become true?

[Edited on April 10, 2008 at 8:07 AM. Reason : ]

4/10/2008 8:02:47 AM

Quote :

"There's way too much proof"

there is also way too much proof that 90% of the 'facts' that the theorists post on the internet are bogus. and there is also proof that if you are convincing enough people will believe anything even if it is not coming from credible sources. Most of the stuff is analyzed COMPLETELY wrong, including 99.9999% of any of the "engineering analysis" on the structural integrity of the building etc. The rest of the facts have been exaggerated or are not true at all (ie youll never find a credible source to back them up)

Not saying i know the answer to this, but I have yet to see hardly ANY convincing facts that would lead me to believe it was a conspiracy. And anyone with half a brain, or educated on any of the individual areas these groups try and attack know that the manipulated information they give is bogus. Its almost funny to watch people try and make something of it.

[Edited on April 10, 2008 at 8:14 AM. Reason : ]

4/10/2008 8:08:18 AM

Haha, I miss threads like these. They always gave me a good laugh.

Quote :

"lava was caught on several tapes pouring out of one of the windows of the world trade center before it collapsed"

Quote :

"I will concede that Pele, the volcano god, may have played a role. Oddly enough the 9/11 commission made no mention of him. "

Haha, gg.

4/10/2008 11:50:10 AM