Or, you know...

the whole "1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, & 8th Amendment" thing, which doesn't seem all that hip among Republicans these days.

6/8/2008 8:54:41 AM

why do you feel that way boone?

6/8/2008 9:05:55 AM

The religious right is very keen on poking holes in the 1st Amendment.

The other amendments are all suffering under the war on terror.

6/8/2008 9:08:51 AM

Do you have an example of what you said?

It seems to me the "fairness"(imagine that. lol) doctrine is nothing short but an attack on freedom of speech and the press.

As for some of the others, I can see your point, but our govt has been doing this shit for years. Hell look at how they spied on MLK.

Its pretty safe to conclude that regardless of party, the govt will abuse its power. That is why im not keen on giving them more power over my daily life or my ability to feed for myself.

6/8/2008 9:14:36 AM

Quote :

"regardless of party, the govt will abuse its power."

So true.

Gov't has enough power over us. It's time to shave it back. The problem is finding politicians who want to go through the hassle of getting elected only to REDUCE their power and influence over the masses. And who, realistically, wants to ever do that?

We all look to gov't to do things for us. But, as we encourage them to do this, we are increasing their power to do things TO us. That is why it's critical to look at the possible unintended consequences of every feel-good proposal some politician brings to the fore.

6/8/2008 10:47:55 AM

Quote :

"wtf are you talking about. Obama wants to raise your taxes across the board. Income, SS, capital gains."

You missed the point and reverted to the frothing that I alluded to. My point was that the marketing of tax plans is meaningless until you see the terms on signed bill. Tax codes are so complicated, you can't judge whether it will be better or worse for you without seeing the exact terms.

I was naive enough to believe that the Bush tax could would have saved me a lot of money -- turned out that it didn't. I objectively analyzed the complicated ass changes in tax policy and found out that the reality of the Bush tax cuts didn't live up to the marketing.

You say that obama wants to raise income, ss, and capital gains tax -- let's objectively analyze that:

- He want's to revert to Clinton-level income taxes -- that will put me in a higher tax bracket. ouch
- He wants to raise the SS cap -- doesn't affect me at all.
- He wants to raise the long term capital gains tax -- doesn't affect me at all.
- He wants to add some sort of "middle class tax credit" with unspecified terms -- could benefit me
- He wants to provide some sort of increased subsidy to new homebuyers -- could benefit me

So, by objectively looking at the situation, I can see that Obama's plans might either hurt me a bit or help me. I don't know until there is something on paper.

( I did the same thing for McCain's vague plans. My taxes will remain as they are now (one tax bracket lower vs Obama), and none of the new tax cuts/credits/whatever will affect me. He has some other tax cuts mentioned such as corporate tax cuts, but that doesn't affect me.)

Quote :

"I am morally opposed to any person who continues to punish productivity and responsibility to reward laziness and irresponsibility."

FYI, when republicans controlled every branch of government, they punished me 98% as much as democrats wanted to. I guess you are just as 98% outraged at republicans, then. Unless government spending decreases in real terms, republican and democratic tax code changes are all shell games.

The take away is that since the tax code is so complicated, for me, McCain's tax plan will fall short of being as good as marketed just as Obama's will fall short of the apocalypse that people like you are predicting. This doesn't even take into account that both candidates will fail to implement 100% of what they want to.

(If it wasn't clear, the analysis above is not general. Your situation may be completely different because of the nature of the tax codes. If you do, in fact, benefit a lot more from Mccain's plans, good for you. Rational self interest ftw)

[Edited on June 8, 2008 at 12:21 PM. Reason : The single, upper middle class worker is taxed the most. That won't change since we vote the least.]

6/8/2008 12:07:29 PM

Quote :

"Unless government spending decreases in real terms, republican and democratic tax code changes are all shell games."

What you say?! I thought they would create monies out of no where! Or at least take it from the rich people. Right? Right?

6/8/2008 12:11:15 PM

skokiaan. couple things

Quote :

"I guess you are just as 98% outraged at republicans,"

You bet your ass I am. one of the reasons I kept my ass at home in 2006. When republicans act like dems they need to get thier ass outta office. I thought it was time to give the other party a turn, afterall they were going to lower gas prices. Turns out they are as full of shit as the last batch of republicans. if this continues the libertarian party will become a more feasible party every year.

The tax cuts on corporate taxes DOES affect you.

Ok, so your taxes will increase under obama, income tax.

Your social security taxes will also increase my friend. If you are in the top 10%, then you probably pay the maximum in SS taxes every year. I know I do. I also know I wont get much of my money back...if at all.

Long term capital gains doesnt affect you? If you are that naive and arent investing anything, then you will be a democrat for life. You need to be investing NOW. Dont be foolish. I dont care what party you belong to, save NOW. 10% or at least 4k a year in a Roth IRA. The effects of capital gains on investments is HUGE and bullshit. To say it doesnt affect you is very naive.

Quote :

"He wants to provide some sort of increased subsidy to new homebuyers -- could benefit me"

Is there any reason that someone in the top 10% earners should have the taxpayers help purchase your house? That is a fundamental difference between you and I I think. Im more for personal freedom, rewarding hard work, fairness, and responsiblity. I want our govt to do as little as possible in our everyday lives. Yes I want them to protect our nation and borders. Yes i want them to help out in natural disasters. No I dont want them telling me what kind of medicine I can have or how much of the money I work for I really "need". As obama puts it.. "they dont need it". What an asshole. Obama, not you skokiaan, you at least address points and dont attack. I appreciate that.

6/8/2008 12:28:36 PM

For someone who hates having other people tell you how to run your life, you sure are telling me alot about my own financial situation:

- I don't work for a corporation, so corporate tax cuts don't benefit my employer directly (and, in turn, myself one level indirectly). (And for a list of reasons, I'm not going to try to predict macroeconomic effects of this and then vote based on some altruistic shit. I'm going strictly by rational self interest.)
- As I stated, I will not be affected by the change in the SS tax just yet. Maybe in about 5 years.
- Thanks for your concern, but I invest a shitload in tax deferred accounts that won't be affected by Obama's plans. For non tax deferred stuff, it's all short-term gains (and yes, I think it's BS that there's such a difference b/w LT and ST).

It's great that you are trying to be all idealistic and shit (I used to be like you), but because of the choices we have and the way Washington works, nothing that you (or any average voter) can do will ever achieve the ideal. Democratic government (not just government as it is today or government in some smaller scope) is designed to cater to who votes the most and is designed to change very little.

Hence, worrying about ideals proves to be fruitless effort. Voting based on rational self interest has a much greater relevance to my existence.

[Edited on June 8, 2008 at 1:19 PM. Reason : .]

6/8/2008 1:01:53 PM

Quote :

"I don't work for a corporation, so corporate tax cuts don't benefit my employer directly"

Unfortunately, yes, you are affected by corporate tax rates.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/05/corporate-tax-rates.html

There are also many ill side effects of corporate tax rates that are high relative to other nations. Higher corporate tax rates not only get passed down to consumers, but also hurt the competitiveness of the US with the rest of the world.


[Edited on June 8, 2008 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

6/8/2008 1:49:18 PM

Dear Barack,

It's yours. Don't fuck it up.

More importantly, don't let the party fuck it up.

I'll be watching!

Best,
Gamecat

6/8/2008 4:58:56 PM

Dear Barack,

Thank you in advance for bringing the second coming of Ronald Reagan. You have a special place in my heart just as Jimmy Carter does. I can't wait for your first term to be over.

Best,

Oeuvre


[Edited on June 8, 2008 at 5:12 PM. Reason : .]

6/8/2008 5:11:47 PM

Dear Barack,

Thank you in advance for bringing the second coming of Ronald Reagan. You have a special place in my heart just as Jimmy Carter does. I can't wait for your first term to be over.

Best,

Rat

6/8/2008 5:18:28 PM