Quote :

"WARREN: Not good. 80 percent of Americans recently polled said they believe in merit pay. Now, for teachers, do you - I'm not asking do you think all teachers should get a raise. Do you think better teachers should be paid better? They should be paid more than poor teachers? OBAMA: I think that we should - and I've said this publicly, that we should set up a system of performance pay for teachers, negotiated with teachers, worked with the teachers to figure out the assessments, so that they feel like they're being judged fairly, it's not at the whim of the principal. That it's not simply based on a single high stakes standardized test but the basic notion that teaching is a profession, that teachers are underpaid, so we need to pay them all more, but - and create a higher baseline, but then we should also reward excellence."

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/08/saddleback-forum-videotape-oba.html


Fast forward to about 2:05 for the relevant section.

Quote :

"WARREN: About 80 percent of America says they support merit pay for the best teachers. Now, I don't want to hear your stump speech on education. MCCAIN: Yes, yes, and find bad teachers another line of work. (APPLAUSE). WARREN: You know, we're going to end this, you're answering so quickly. You want to play a game of poker?"

http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/08/saddleback-forum-video-and-tra.html

Holy shit, he answered the next batch of questions before being asked! MAVERICK!!PSYCHIC!!

8/19/2008 10:17:40 AM

I think a 'faith forum' is pretty gay...sorry. I had zero interest in watching either candidate yap it up about faith and faith based issues and it's pretty much the least tangible important issue to our country. Just a bunch of bullshit for all of our Christian voters.

They need to have a science forum that actually deals with real issues. Our government is supposed to be secular you know...despite the religious right's attempts to do away with that.

8/19/2008 10:19:36 AM

On taxes, Obama waxed political: "What I'm trying to do is create a sense of balance and fairness in our tax code." McCain showed an understanding of what drives a free economy: "I don't want to take any money from the rich. I want everybody to get rich. I don't believe in class warfare or redistribution of the wealth."

To any honest observer, the differences between John McCain and Barack Obama have been evident all along. What we saw last weekend was Obama's shallowness juxtaposed with McCain's depth, the product of his extraordinary life experience.

It may not have been a debate, but it was one of the most lopsided political contests in memory. No wonder Obama wants to keep debate formats boring and predictable.


ouch.

Sarijoul. Why no mention of his taxes, the clarence thomas, or abortion issues? He really is in trouble when he doesnt have a teleprompter.

8/19/2008 11:41:36 AM

^its above his pay-grade......

8/19/2008 11:44:15 AM

spookyjon,

hahahaha wow. It's amazing the type of conspiracy theories you will believe to explain away your boy getting trounced in yet another debate.

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 11:51 AM. Reason : ``]

8/19/2008 11:45:02 AM

Quote :

"Holy shit, he answered the next batch of questions before being asked! MAVERICK!!PSYCHIC!!"

Because he actually knows what he believes and bases his answers on that. Obama has to think for a second "Uhhh....well..... *how can I not offend this group and that group?*.....you see......."

8/19/2008 11:47:27 AM

That gives him the ability to answer questions that have yet to be asked.

8/19/2008 12:09:04 PM

They have already presented us with a range of debate formats that are utterly unacceptable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0rrXzd7XbY

The George Stephanopoulos debate was ridiculous.

I want to see an economics and energy expert to drill the two candidates. And maybe a question or two about the fregin debt. Please no more of the "fuzzy math", let's have people talk who know what they're saying.

Please.

8/19/2008 12:25:10 PM

Let me ask you guys this question....which guy would you hire as a result of this "job interview"?

If you were a HR manager at a company, you would base your opinion on the resume and the interview.......

looking strictly at the resumes of each candidate, both have decent resumes....I would give McCain the upside strictly because of his experience.......However, a resume only gets you in the door!

This was one of the few times where each candidate was in the "job interview" mode.

All previous and upcoming debates will be...I'm more qualified...yadda yadda yadda...he did this.....he dosent know this....I did this.....

8/19/2008 12:57:54 PM

Why won't Mr. Nuance, Obama, accept McCain's challenge of town hall-style debates?

8/19/2008 1:04:06 PM

Because it gives him his comfort advantage...save it for the moderated debates.

And I love how you guys think 'mccain won'...dude, its an evangelical faith forum with seperate interviews...how the shit is that a debate? Hell, I give Obama credit for going at all because he's so much the visitors team it's ridiculous.

These are evangelical Christians guys, this is McCain's base, explain to me why he WOULDNT be more comfortable and do a 'more formidable' job...

8/19/2008 1:20:09 PM

^ Um. . .there's so much stupid in that I hardly know where to begin. Could you possibly stereotype more?

If you had any idea what was actually going on, you'd know that Obama is the one who has been reaching out to evangelicals. If you'd checked the polls lately, you'd have seen that Obama needs every vote he can get.

McCain has actually been critical of religious leaders in the past. In addition, McCain supported stem cell research, which has not been a popular position with many evangelicals.

And evangelism is more fractured now. The agenda is broadening, and some leaders such as Warren support a focus on issues such as the AIDS and climate change, among others.

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 1:32 PM. Reason : PS: They called it a "forum" rather than a "debate." ]

8/19/2008 1:30:34 PM

Quote :

" McCain has actually been critical of religious leaders in the past."

those are the operative words there. haven't seen too much of this recently from mccain.

8/19/2008 1:32:59 PM

In job interviews I tend to go with the guy who finished 5th from the bottom of his class. It shows the person is a real scholastic maverick.

8/19/2008 1:39:52 PM

Yeah Obama probably should have accepted the town hall debates after the McCain campaign did all that work to set them up. Why, they even picked out the audience and wrote their questions for them!

8/19/2008 1:40:30 PM

iirc, obama floated the idea of doing less than what mccain had suggested (4 vs 10 or something, i don't remember). obviously it didn't get anywhere though.

8/19/2008 1:44:44 PM

Quote :

"^ Um. . .there's so much stupid in that I hardly know where to begin."

Why are you being an asshole hooksaw? You need to stick to controlling your points before lambasting someone like that. You just lost my respect in one fell blow, calm your ass down.

Both politicians are reaching out to that aggregate for votes, don't spin me some tune of McCain being all of a sudden the estranged maverick prodigal son of Christianity..cause he hasn't. If you think that McCain isnt the freak home team here given his base being the religious right..you're in denial or just ignorant.

And I was responding to socks post about Obama's ass being whupped in 'another debate'...which is laughable. I know it was called the forum, see my post up near the top of page 2.

And speaking of laughable, that line in your little salvo there...the one about McCain being critical of religious leaders makes me particularly laugh...are we so quick to forget that him and that fucking idiot Hagee? Falwell? He bounced around and did what ever was politically expedient with two of the most acidic religious leaders in this goddamn country is all.

Oh well, we have memory loss all of a sudden now eh? Kind of like when McCain gets that tricky question - UMMM LET ME CHECK MY RECORDS ON THAT AND GET BACK TO YOU...?! After a half dozen of those scenarios, he gets a free pass and invulnerability pass for his age his POW service and Obama gets criticized and rolled over like a freaking gold-sifting pan for a billion things to sink his chances and equalize the race. Sure, real nice.

8/19/2008 1:44:46 PM

^x5 In case you haven't noticed Falwell is dead, Robertson is less of a factor, and things have been and are changing in evangelism (see below).

^^^ Stupid.

^ What a crock of shit. Stop stereotyping like you've just logged off Daily Kos and signed up for MoveOn and I'll be happy to "calm [my] ass down."

Inside Obama's Christian Crusade
Preaching to the Choir

Quote :

"On June 10, presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama convened a meeting in a law office in downtown Chicago with a wide array of about thirty evangelical leaders, in an unprecedented effort to win their support. Obama insisted that the meeting remain entirely off the record, forbidding participants from disclosing his statements to the press. His campaign has kept the names of attendees a closely guarded secret. But through interviews with participants and overlooked statements in obscure publications of the Christian press, a first-hand picture of the meeting emerges, starkly at odds with the news reports that accepted the formal version at face value."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080714/blumenthal

McCain pulls into a tie in new polling
Analysts cite Georgia response

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/18/mccain-pulls-into-a-tie-in-new-polling/

McCain and Bush clash over Revs. Robertson, Falwell
February 29, 2000

Quote :

"The Republican presidential contest erupted into factional warfare yesterday, as Sen. John McCain labeled several Christian conservative leaders as 'agents of intolerance' and Gov. George W. Bush accused his rival of 'needless name calling.'"

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/gops29.shtml

Rev. Rick Warren puts Obama, McCain on the same stage

Quote :

"'This is absolutely a changing of the guard, and it suggests that the new guard of the evangelical movement is able to generate the attention and focus of both parties,' said D. Michael Lindsay, a sociologist at Rice University and author of 'Faith in the Halls of Power: How Evangelicals Joined the American Elite.'"

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008117734_pastor16.html

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 1:51 PM. Reason : .]

8/19/2008 1:47:08 PM

Quote :

"What a crock of shit. Stop stereotyping like you've just logged off Daily Kos and signed up for MoveOn and I'll be happy to "calm [my] ass down." "

Hahaha, well if you can't win a debate, invent lies about your opponent instead. Sure, lampoon me all you want but it makes you look weak and definitely turns your conceived notion of conservative arguments are all about the FACTS, facts enjoyed by TRUE AMERICANS.

Instead you opt to just act like a dick cheese. Congratulations.

8/19/2008 1:55:52 PM

^ Oh, piss off, you whiner--don't you have some more stereotyping to get to? I presented a reasoned argument supported by numerous facts and sources--as usual. You, on the other hand, presented something along the lines of blah, blather, and spittle.

You're obviously too stupid to realize that I won the debate. Please just STFU.

8/19/2008 2:00:39 PM

LOL. Keep going, it's almost self parody at this point.

8/19/2008 2:06:08 PM

^ Ignoring the facts does not mean that those facts cease to exist. My points remain.

8/19/2008 2:10:51 PM

Stupid.

8/19/2008 2:18:54 PM

they aren't facts, they're just stances...just because you post a political argument to help buttress fractions of what you're saying doesn't give you the references crown, and all of a sudden your arguments are facts. You're just citing an article here or there with an opinion that meets yours. I could do that in half a minute in a similar google search by switching a term or two. Big whup.

Hell, I'm doing the easy work and not bothering with 'the awful LIBERAL media' and letting you take care of all the heavy lifting embarrassing yourself.

8/19/2008 2:24:05 PM

^ My positions are based on facts supported by numerous sources--in stark contrast to the nothingness you've presented. There's nothing embarrassing about it--except your lack of a meaningful response. And I was already aware of all the issues because I'm informed--you know, unlike you.

You could support your position here using Google? Let's see it.

8/19/2008 2:29:44 PM

Because I actually work for a living here, I simply don't have time to post essays while at work to 'dethrone' your little arrogant stances hooksaw.

8/19/2008 2:42:04 PM

Quote :

"Hahaha, well if you can't win a debate, invent lies about your opponent instead."

Like your opponent cheated and he really thinks that only those above 5 million are rich?

FWIW, I think Obama appeared VERY comfortable. Its just clear that his answers where more non answers and shows he isnt so clever off a teleprompter. I do give them both credit for going to this, and I liked the format.

McCain missed an opportunity. HE should have said, If obama wants to whine about who went first, lets have some more of these debates and Ill go first everytime."

8/19/2008 2:48:03 PM

I hesitate to post in this thread because I think that a persons faith shouldn't matter to anyone else (just like their sex lives), but for those who think McCain flew by scot free here:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/18/cafferty.mccain/index.html

Quote :

" Russia invades Georgia and President Bush goes on vacation. Our president has spent one-third of his entire two terms in office either at Camp David, Maryland, or at Crawford, Texas, on vacation. His time away from the Oval Office included the month leading up to 9/11, when there were signs Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America, and the time Hurricane Katrina destroyed the city of New Orleans. Sen. John McCain takes weekends off and limits his campaign events to one a day. He made an exception for the religious forum on Saturday at Saddleback Church in Southern California. I think he made a big mistake. When he was invited last spring to attend a discussion of the role of faith in his life with Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, at Messiah College in Pennsylvania, McCain didn't bother to show up. Now I know why. It occurs to me that John McCain is as intellectually shallow as our current president. When asked what his Christian faith means to him, his answer was a one-liner. "It means I'm saved and forgiven." Great scholars have wrestled with the meaning of faith for centuries. McCain then retold a story we've all heard a hundred times about a guard in Vietnam drawing a cross in the sand. Asked about his greatest moral failure, he cited his first marriage, which ended in divorce. While saying it was his greatest moral failing, he offered nothing in the way of explanation. Why not? Don't Miss * The Cafferty File: Join the conversation * Jack's book: "It's Getting Ugly Out There" * Analysis: Is McCain finding his way on faith? Throughout the evening, McCain chose to recite portions of his stump speech as answers to the questions he was being asked. Why? He has lived 71 years. Surely he has some thoughts on what it all means that go beyond canned answers culled from the same speech he delivers every day. He was asked "if evil exists." His response was to repeat for the umpteenth time that Osama bin Laden is a bad man and he will pursue him to "the gates of hell." That was it. He was asked to define rich. After trying to dodge the question -- his wife is worth a reported $100 million -- he finally said he thought an income of $5 million was rich. One after another, McCain's answers were shallow, simplistic, and trite. He showed the same intellectual curiosity that George Bush has -- virtually none. Where are John McCain's writings exploring the vexing moral issues of our time? Where are his position papers setting forth his careful consideration of foreign policy, the welfare state, education, America's moral responsibility in the world, etc., etc., etc.? John McCain graduated 894th in a class of 899 at the Naval Academy at Annapolis. His father and grandfather were four star admirals in the Navy. Some have suggested that might have played a role in McCain being admitted. His academic record was awful. And it shows over and over again whenever McCain is called upon to think on his feet. He no longer allows reporters unfettered access to him aboard the "Straight Talk Express" for a reason. He simply makes too many mistakes. Unless he's reciting talking points or reading from notes or a TelePrompTer, John McCain is lost. He can drop bon mots at a bowling alley or diner -- short glib responses that get a chuckle, but beyond that McCain gets in over his head very quickly. I am sick and tired of the president of the United States embarrassing me. The world we live in is too complex to entrust it to someone else whose idea of intellectual curiosity and grasp of foreign policy issues is to tell us he can look into Vladimir Putin's eyes and see into his soul. George Bush's record as a student, military man, businessman and leader of the free world is one of constant failure. And the part that troubles me most is he seems content with himself. He will leave office with the country $10 trillion in debt, fighting two wars, our international reputation in shambles, our government cloaked in secrecy and suspicion that his entire presidency has been a litany of broken laws and promises, our citizens' faith in our own country ripped to shreds. Yet Bush goes bumbling along, grinning and spewing moronic one-liners, as though nobody understands what a colossal failure he has been. I fear to the depth of my being that John McCain is just like him."

8/19/2008 3:00:25 PM

^^^ I could take you down but. . .but. . .I'm too busy. Yeah, that's the ticket! Even though you've been logged on for hours. Just STFU, okay?

^ Jack Cafferty's a loose cannon. And there's this:

Quote :

"Cafferty pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and misdemeanor charges of reckless driving, assault and harassment after striking a cyclist and knocking him off his bike on May 14, 2003. The bicyclist was slightly injured. A traffic officer and several pedestrians ran after Mr. Cafferty's car, but he ran at least two red lights without stopping, according to a police complaint. Cafferty was sentenced to a $250 fine and 70 hours of community service."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Cafferty#Reckless_driving_incident

You'll pardon me if I'm a bit skeptical concerning the "commentary" of someone who would hit a person with his car and leave the scene of the accident at high speed.

[Edited on August 19, 2008 at 3:12 PM. Reason : .]

8/19/2008 3:05:55 PM

Quote :

"Cafferty pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident and misdemeanor charges of reckless driving, assault and harassment after striking a cyclist and knocking him off his bike on May 14, 2003. The bicyclist was slightly injured. A traffic officer and several pedestrians ran after Mr. Cafferty's car, but he ran at least two red lights without stopping, according to a police complaint. Cafferty was sentenced to a $250 fine and 70 hours of community service."

ha. is this just the norm for political journalists these days?

8/19/2008 3:23:33 PM

Quote :

"^ Jack Cafferty's a loose cannon."

Case and point....I call this the LIBERAL MOONBAT MEDIA card. Source or say whatever you will and don't worry he'll discredit them

8/19/2008 3:25:47 PM

Cafferty hits the nail right on the head. as soon as McCain blurted out "we've gotta drill here and drill now", about 2 mins in, it was obvious he was going to just give canned replies to the questions.

i cannot, CANNOT wait for the debates. Obama is going to make McCain appear every bit the old, senile, GOP-tired-ass policy mouthpiece that he is.

However, given the result of the 2004 election, after Kerry made Bush look like a blathering idiot, I'm not sure this will mean anything for the outcome of the election.

8/19/2008 3:26:10 PM

^ Um. . .except that most Americans want offshore oil drilling. The Democrats have been on the wrong side of this issue and so has Obama--until he flip-flopped, that is.

And NEWSFLASH: Americans just didn't want John "Reporting for Duty" Kerry and John "But She Was in Remission" Edwards. And I thank God for it.

Americans favor offshore drilling
Poll finds most people think drilling for oil and natural gas off the nation's coast lines is a good idea.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/07/30/news/economy/poll_drilling/index.htm

Oil drilling gains support in Florida
Florida's staunch opposition to offshore oil drilling is softening, with 60 percent in favor, a new poll suggests.

http://www.miamiherald.com/979/story/625374.html

Poll: Most Californians approve of offshore oil drilling

http://climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=104006&keybold=oil%20drilling%20politics

Quote :

"As for TBJ [Triangle Business Journal] readers? Of the 825 people who responded to our unscientific survey, 33 percent said drilling would help 'a lot' to ease gas prices. Another 23 percent of people agreed that it would help, though 'only a little.' On the flip side, 33 percent of respondents say drilling wouldn't help at all. The remaining 11 percent of voters picked the option, 'It doesn't matter. We shouldn't drill.'"

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2008/07/28/daily24.html?b=1217217600%5E1676576

8/19/2008 3:36:23 PM

Quote :

"Case and in point"

8/19/2008 3:43:47 PM

Yeah, cue the "Americans are stupid--if they don't vote for my guy!" shit.

8/19/2008 3:46:59 PM

Quote :

"Of the 825 people who responded to our unscientific survey, 33 percent said drilling would help 'a lot' to ease gas prices. Another 23 percent of people agreed that it would help, though 'only a little.'"

Hate to take steam out of the quote you posted, but I saw an article on MSNBC that claimed that 50% of Americans believe praying will cure diseases. I can blow my opinion here there and everywhere but it doesn't mean it's an informed opinion.

I liked it when sometime last week the Daily Show posted a blurb of all of the news pundits changing the timing of when offshore drilling would actually help people. It started off with an official government report of 'at least 10 years' and I think it ended up with 2-3 WEEKS coming from some fox news dunce.

8/19/2008 3:49:37 PM

hooksaw, I don't expect you to answer but what exactly do you do for a living?

I'm just so curious - you sit around foaming at the mouth and post all this crazed bullshit everywhere with links and slanted articles for ammo....how the hell do you have time to WORK and still do this all day?

8/19/2008 3:55:22 PM

He's a grad student specializing in 'liberal arts'.

8/19/2008 3:56:30 PM

^^ It's irrelevant. And how do you?

^ Wrong again--FTR, concentration in public administration and higher education. But this, too, is irrelevant.

I know you two and some others are butt-hurt because I pwn you all the time and the Democrat-led Congress sucks and Obama grows weaker all the time, but don't take it out on me. Try to stay on topic, okay?

8/19/2008 4:04:03 PM

lol nahh dude your posts do all the work i just have to sit back and laugh when you're all full tilt like this. it's pretty much poetry in motion

8/19/2008 4:07:56 PM

Quote :

"I didn't see the forum, so I don't know the atmosphere, but what audience would this be?"

White, evangelical voters. Many are probably interested at some level because of common issues like the poor and the environment, but more are probably neutral or even hostile because of the classic conservative social issues like abortion, gay marriage, etc.

8/19/2008 4:32:19 PM

Quote :

"In job interviews I tend to go with the guy who finished 5th from the bottom of his class. It shows the person is a real scholastic maverick."

lol, winner

8/19/2008 4:59:28 PM

In case you missed his interview AFTER the forum, he must have "mispoke" yet again.

"The newest line is also not consistent with Obama's oft-stated excuse for opposing the state legislation, and fails to explain his four years of misrepresentation," he said. "Nor does the Sun story indicate that the Obama campaign has issued any apology to NRLC, Bill Bennett, or the others who Senator Obama and his campaign have been calling liars for saying what they now admit was the truth."


http://townhall.com/columnists/AmandaCarpenter/2008/08/18/obama_calls_pro-lifers_liars?page=1

8/20/2008 9:57:09 AM

ok, so i never saw any of this...havent watched tv in like 3 months now

Quote :

"In a forum last week with the Rev. Rick Warren, McCain was asked to define the word "rich" and to give a figure. After promoting his tax policies, McCain said: "I think if you are just talking about income, how about $5 million?" The audience laughed, and he added: "But seriously, I don't think you can — I don't think seriously that — the point is that I'm trying to make here, seriously — and I'm sure that comment will be distorted — but the point is that we want to keep people's taxes low and increase revenues." Obama, asked the same question at the forum, said those making $250,000 and higher are in the top 3 to 4 percent and "doing well." Obama and his wife, Michelle, reported making $4.2 million in 2007."

this was in an article i just read...only thing i knew was mccains 5/mil a year comment, didnt know what obama said(until now)

this is what i said the other day

Quote :

"lol i cant believe mccain said 5mil/year is what he considers rich...i'd say like 200k+ imo"

idk i guess it just made me lol that what i said is pretty close to what obama said

8/21/2008 9:54:16 AM

I'm having to watch this forum piece-by-piece online, but and I am getting much more confident about the upcoming debates. McCain seemed quick and sharp, even more so than Oh-Um-Ahhh Obama. That's important considering his age.

And make no mistake, this is not a question of nuance. What I have seen of Obama, he is searching for mediocre and vauge answers to some fairly important questions. That isn't to say he's stupid (though I actually do think he's similar to George Bush is lacking interest in most policy discussions). More likely, I think he's searching for answers that won't offend anyone. But that isn't exactly what I want in President.

[Edited on August 21, 2008 at 10:12 AM. Reason : ``]

8/21/2008 10:10:43 AM

dnl, I posted a link to the whole question and answer earlier. 5 million was just thrown out there. His point was he doesnt want to take more of anyones money, and the problem is spending not income.

8/21/2008 10:14:38 AM