ATTN: Russia. Dont forget your old pals Cuba

8/21/2008 11:19:11 AM

Quote :

"I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that in the slightest. If China wanted to put up a missile defense station along our borders and was part of a union established for the sole purpose of defending against America, we, as a nation would exhibit concern. "recent" and "neighbors" can be considered relative but i'll assume you mean <10 years and immediate neighbors, and in that case you're correct. For the most part we don't shit where we sleep, however, we do have a very recent history of threat of military as a way of exerting our influence to foreign nations that have not aggressed us."

Except neither Canada nor Mexico has any fear of the USA. And we didn't oppress these countries for 50 years, or more.

And they key phrase that you yourself wrote, "part of a union established for the sole purpose of defending[!] against ..."

So I guess if Mexico, Canada, and China were in an alliance to defend against US aggression, and we had ruled Mexico and Canada defacto with an irongrip for half a century, and they wanted to put up a defensive shield to protect themselves, you may be right.

8/21/2008 5:21:41 PM

TIPPECANOE AND TYLER TOO!!!!1

8/21/2008 7:41:58 PM

Quote :

"Except neither Canada nor Mexico has any fear of the USA. And we didn't oppress these countries for 50 years, or more."

Both statements fail for Mexico.

8/21/2008 7:44:14 PM

8/21/2008 9:04:35 PM

^^ ummm, Mexico doesn't fear us. They hate us, but they don't fear us. If they did, then they sure as hell wouldn't be flaunting our sovereignty by encouraging their citizens to break our immigration laws.

8/21/2008 10:59:11 PM

8/22/2008 1:29:27 AM

I would not begrudge Canada installing defensive capabilities aimed at America, even manned by the Russians, because I have no interest in invading Canada, so such installations would be irrelevant. No one should argue that the French Maginot(sp) line Started a world war, for example.

However, as Russia does have intentions of invading its neighbors, a defensive capability, especially one manned by a foreign power, would escallate the future invasion from what happened in georgia to a full world war. As such, America is leading the world to future world war, in Russia's eyes, since their plans to invade predate our plan to defend. .

8/22/2008 1:34:05 AM

^^^They hate us so much they all want to come live here?

8/22/2008 8:47:50 AM

Attempting to understand the misconceptions from which you contrive your opinions Ytsejam is really a baffling experience.

Quote :

"So I guess if Mexico, Canada, and China were in an alliance to defend against US aggression, and we had ruled Mexico and Canada defacto with an irongrip for half a century, and they wanted to put up a defensive shield to protect themselves, you may be right."

Not everyone who is a part of NATO was ruled by the soviet union with an "iron grip" nor were all the areas that were controlled by the soviet union displeased being controlled by them. some parts of those areas have surpassed nationhood and still consider themselves soviets, which is exactly what Stalin intended. Regardless of that past, Russia had become a neutral party and was no longer seen as a threat. You can argue that this involvement with Georgia has changed that, but the fact remains that the defense shield was posed long before the Georgian/Russian military conflict took place this summer and was established under a period where Bush said he could look into Putin's eyes and see the soul of the Russian people. The establishment of a missile defense system when publicly decrying that you no longer view someone as a threat seems contradictory and demonstrates in reality you are by no means at ease with a nation nor see it as a potential ally. The dirty laundry has been aired and such a message to Russia elevated the tensions in that region.

Quote :

"because I have no interest in invading Canada, so such installations would be irrelevant"

Quote :

"However, as Russia does have intentions of invading its neighbors, a defensive capability, especially one manned by a foreign power, would escallate the future invasion from what happened in georgia to a full world war"

LoneSnark

I really don't believe Russia has full intentions of invading its neighbors from the start. It seems to me that the further strengthening of NATO, an organization which should be all but pointless if Russia and the world were at peace as they had been, is what has provoked Russia and they feel like a cornered animal (a bear if you will). As any cornered animal they have been provoked to the point where they needed to show of what they are capable in order to deter from further provocation. I'm not suggesting that Russia's actions were proportionate response to what was taking place, but merely establishing the mind state and the modus operandi. I can agree with you that this defense system has escalated things as a whole.

8/22/2008 9:19:10 AM

I'm interested to see what position, if any, China will take as soon as the Olympics end. Their influence one way or the other could provide a huge boost to either side.

Right now, Russia is just flexing its muscles. I see no logical reason why they would invade Georgia other than this. Unless they were hellbent on invading Iraq through by means of Turkey with support from Iran. I see this as unlikely though because it would 100% guaranteed start WWIII and I honestly don't think they're crazy enough to want this. This all comes at a curious time though. We weren't getting anywhere with the missile talks with Poland and they should have known that this would only hasten those talks. This whole situation is hard to read though because it's almost impossible to determine Russia's motives.

Worst case scenario, China and Russia start WWIII as soon as the Olympics end. I see this as very unlikely, but there's just something about the Chinese I don't trust.

8/22/2008 9:56:04 AM

who's gonna buy all of china's cheap plastic crap if they blow us up?

8/22/2008 9:57:23 AM

Quote :

"there's just something about the Chinese I don't trust."

Their passports?

8/22/2008 11:11:43 AM

i lawled

8/22/2008 11:19:34 AM

Quote :

"Not everyone who is a part of NATO was ruled by the soviet union with an "iron grip" "

Really? Wow I didn't know that, but since the missile shield installations are in Poland and the Czech Republic, which both were part of the Eastern bloc, and both of which had uprisings that were mercilessly crushed by Russian Soviets... yeah..

Quote :

"nor were all the areas that were controlled by the soviet union displeased being controlled by them."

I just laughed here and stopped reading. Seriously?

8/22/2008 11:22:59 AM

Hi folks,

I'm Captain Obvious and I'll be here all week.

Please tip your waitresses,
Best Regards
CO

8/22/2008 11:28:11 AM

Quote :

"nor were all the areas that were controlled by the soviet union displeased being controlled by them."

That's ridiculous. A huge reason why NATO expansion has been so prolific over the last two decades is that Eastern European nations formerly under the Soviet Union are flocking toward and aggressively pursing NATO membership to protect them from the Russians. NATO expansion is driven more by their fear of the Russians and desire to join the West rather than any sort of hegemonic desire by the United States and Western Europe. Consider the nations who joined: Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Why would they take such an action, knowing full well it wouldn't go over well with the Russians, if they had been happy being under Soviet control? Especially with such strong public support?

Someone brought up the point of Turkey, which is an interesting thought. I don't know if Turkey would be too keen on allowing the Americans to launch air strikes against the Russians from their soil though, given that they would take the full brunt of any retaliation. They turned us down before over Iraq, so there's already established precedence for not going along with the United States every foreign policy whim.

8/22/2008 12:27:32 PM

Quote :

"Someone brought up the point of Turkey, which is an interesting thought. I don't know if Turkey would be too keen on allowing the Americans to launch air strikes against the Russians from their soil though, given that they would take the full brunt of any retaliation. They turned us down before over Iraq, so there's already established precedence for not going along with the United States every foreign policy whim."

True, given the current situation I can't see Turkey allowing it. However, if things were to escalate to a point were we needed to get involved militarily I think it would be far more likely. Turkey has valid interests in the region, unlike in Iraq, and those interests are aligned with the USA/Georgia and in conflict with Russia. For instance the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, I don't see Turkey being to keen on Russia gaining control over that.

8/22/2008 12:50:27 PM

Quote :

""nor were all the areas that were controlled by the soviet union displeased being controlled by them.""

perhaps i didn't convey what i meant clearly, since two people jumped over that. What I was trying to say is not everyone who is within those specific countries is an anti-soviet, meaning that some of the citizens of the larger countries still consider themselves to be soviets. Using the term areas was admittingly a bad choice on my part.

8/22/2008 1:18:11 PM