A degree is a ticket to the rat race. Nothing more. Hope this helps!

8/21/2008 6:54:36 PM

when i said

Quote :

"once you're out of school for 5 years or so, your 5 years of progressive experience is going to be more important to a prospective employer than the particulars of your degree and where your degree is from."

its imporatant to qualify this by remarking that the entry-level jobs that are going to be available to you are greatly determined by what your degree and focus was, as well as how well you did GPA wise.

so maybe 5 years down the road, it will be your experience that counts. But the type of job you get coming out of school -- and hence the path you start on and the experience you get -- is largely determined by your degree.

because its not real easy to jump out of a career path mid-stream and reshift your focus to something even moderately different -- even if its within the same general industry.

and, regrettably, i still have to stand by my statement that

Quote :

"I don't know why anyone would spend time and money on a BA degree"

as much as i loved liberal studies, and as worthwhile as i think they are for life skills (i minored in a CHASS degree field)... the fact is, BA grads are at a serious disadvantage compared to engineering and pure science BS grads in the job market.

Im sorry, you can talk about job satisfaction all you want but you cant have job satisfaction if you're competing with 100 other people for some flunkie job editing copy.

like my adviser told me, "you can 'do classical religious history' with an engineering degree, but you can't do engineering with a religious studies degree."

the fact is, we live in a technically specialized society. sure you can get your BA and go on to be a Nobel laureate or vice president of the united states... just like you can play football and get drafted by the NFL.

the reality is how likely is that?







[Edited on August 21, 2008 at 8:02 PM. Reason : ]

8/21/2008 7:57:06 PM

Quote :

"what I don't understand is why someone would want to get a BS in History, or a BA in Chemistry. that just seems counterproductive. the BS requirements would take away from the core history, while getting a BA in a pure science is truly getting a crippled degree. "

Is a BA in Chemistry all right if I'll have three other BS degrees?

8/21/2008 8:14:07 PM

let's be fair now, some technical fields are getting somewhat depreciated as well.

Computer science comes to mind. So does biology, but at the same time, some of the most high paying fields out there can start off with a biology degree.

Some degrees are good stepping stones to higher degrees and some fields are good to go straight into a job, but yet some fields are neither.

8/21/2008 8:19:13 PM

^^ four bachelor's degrees? FOUR??

what, you got some kind of paralyzing fear of forward momentum?



seriously. theres this thing you should look into. it's called "masters degree"

8/22/2008 1:23:18 AM

Quote :

"Computer science comes to mind. So does biology,"

computer science is neither "engineering" nor pure science. i dont care what the so-called "software engineers" want you to think.

Biology and the other pure sciences are definitely a good start to many different lucrative career paths. but you have to distinguish yourself in some manner, because there sure are a lot of BS Bio major out there fighting for low-paying research assistant jobs maintaining lab equipment and washing glassware.

8/22/2008 1:27:28 AM

Howard Stern, bachelor's degree in communications, Boston University

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Stern

Sirius Money
Howard Stern signs $500 million radio deal.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,710396,00.html

8/22/2008 1:58:31 AM

^ there are people out there who wake up and decide they want to be a radio DJ. I have one friend who knew from high school he wanted to have his voice on the airways.

But a communications degree does nothing for accomplishing that. You have to do other stuff to get the job you want. So what role did the degree play? The point is that they get it because society makes them. Howard Stern could have spent that time doing something much better like striking 500M contracts as opposed to enduring lectures he has no desire to sit through. But they still have to get the degree in addition, else they be stigmatized.

That's not cool.

8/22/2008 8:04:34 AM

Quote :

"what I don't understand is why someone would want to get a BS in History, or a BA in Chemistry. that just seems counterproductive. the BS requirements would take away from the core history, while getting a BA in a pure science is truly getting a crippled degree"

Well for a BS in History... For me, I was already getting a pure science degree, and the BS had a lot less outside department requirements, but the same amount of History classes. I think the deference was in the FL requirements and a 3 or 4 random courses. Like only one literature class instead of two, etc.

When I added it, I found out that apparently a lot of people who don't do well in a BS curriculum switch over and take the BS in History so they can still graduate in ~4 years.

8/22/2008 8:05:24 AM

Quote :

"^^ four bachelor's degrees? FOUR?? what, you got some kind of paralyzing fear of forward momentum? seriously. theres this thing you should look into. it's called "masters degree""

Double majored, went to vet school for a year, wasn't a fan, too late to apply to masters, didn't want to start paying loans back, double majoring again in this one year while I apply to masters

But thanks for the concern.

[Edited on August 22, 2008 at 9:01 AM. Reason : only 5 years total in undergrad for 4 majors and a minor. doesn't sound too bad.]

8/22/2008 8:40:56 AM

Quote :

"didn't want to start paying loans back"

I would say this sounds irresponsible, and hiding from your problems. But then again, I don't know what their interest scheme for student loans is, so meh...

5 years for 4 degrees isn't that bad. On your resume it's not only the end effects that matter, but also the dates.

8/22/2008 9:31:59 AM

Quote :

"I would say this sounds irresponsible, and hiding from your problems. But then again, I don't know what their interest scheme for student loans is, so meh..."

I'd rather wait until I get the job that I want after grad school that will pay back all $40k of my vet school loan, but whatever.

8/22/2008 10:10:50 AM

Yeah, well you could very well loose money by having to make payments, refinance, and whatnot simply because you're not enrolled. Likely because of fairly arbitrary rules they put with student loans, which you clearly have no control over.

8/22/2008 10:26:56 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, well you could very well loose money by having to make payments, refinance, and whatnot simply because you're not enrolled. Likely because of fairly arbitrary rules they put with student loans, which you clearly have no control over."

I don't have any control over them, but I do know what I signed up for. I'm not adding any interest while I'm in school.

I'm not concerned.

[Edited on August 22, 2008 at 11:33 AM. Reason : dang it, I am not an English major. ]

8/22/2008 11:12:37 AM

If you have a degree, that doesn't automatically mean you will have success. However, if you don't have a degree, it certainly doesn't make the road to success any easier for you.

8/22/2008 11:30:19 AM

So you go back to undergrad to get two more degrees which are completely irrelevant to going to grad school, so you could defer your student loans, I hope to god you didn't take out more student loans to go back. Most loans can get frozen again if you go back to school.

8/22/2008 11:47:09 AM

^^ and can you give any explanation for that other than elitism on the part of our country's leaders and managers?

No body would argue with this on a micro-economic scale, but we go around in a circle and realize that's the exact problem. People know that non-degreed persons are discriminated against, and thus abandon dreams that would otherwise have been doable without a wasted 4 years and the attached debt. While the institution of a college was supposed to exist to help them in the realizing of that dream, it has becomes something that does the exact opposite.

And it can't change from the ground up. As everyone wants to cover their own ass, they'll pledge their loyalty to a system that is broken and counterproductive, while our delusional leaders praise the merits of the mess we've become.

[Edited on August 22, 2008 at 11:59 AM. Reason : ^]

8/22/2008 11:53:26 AM

HOLY HELL

Howard Stern only had a BA, and now he's rich beyond belief.

THEREFORE

Everyone who has a BA can get rich like him

WOW

8/22/2008 11:56:17 AM

[Edited on August 22, 2008 at 11:59 AM. Reason : double post]

8/22/2008 11:58:46 AM

Quote :

"So you go back to undergrad to get two more degrees which are completely irrelevant to going to grad school, so you could defer your student loans, I hope to god you didn't take out more student loans to go back. Most loans can get frozen again if you go back to school."

Who said that the two additional degrees were irrelevant to grad school?

And no. I didn't take out any loans to pay for this year. Nor did I have to take out any loans to pay for those first four years.

8/22/2008 12:00:50 PM

so you got a $40k loan, used 1/4th of it for your first year, and now are sitting on the other 3/4ths of it in cash.

8/22/2008 12:03:00 PM

^

Uh, no.

That $40k was for the one year of vet school.

8/22/2008 12:05:11 PM

out of state?

8/22/2008 12:08:49 PM

Quote :

"computer science is neither "engineering" nor pure science. i dont care what the so-called "software engineers" want you to think."

The problem is in part because the field of Computer Science is still maturing as their role in society has exploded over the last several decades.

Personally, I think they need to split into three separate fields. We already see the development of a seperate IT and Information Systems track that covers the more the deployment and maintenance of systems. What we probably need now is a split between Software Engineering and the theoretical, the former focusing more on the actual designing and management of software projects (something the field as a whole is woefully weak in) and the latter geared more toward the advancing of the theoretical.

I draw the parallel with electricians, electrical engineers, and physicists; mechanics, mechanical engineers, and physicists; etc.

8/22/2008 12:18:08 PM

that makes sense... so like a 2 year associates degree or some other kind of vocational training, perhaps with a certification path, that would allow someone to write the code.

while the 4 year "software engineer" degree would be more about how to specify and manage a project.

that makes sense. i'll sign off on that.

8/22/2008 1:33:49 PM

Quote :

"out of state?"

yeah. Out of state for ivy league Penn.

8/22/2008 2:48:24 PM

Quote :

"Who said that the two additional degrees were irrelevant to grad school?"

Grad schools.

8/22/2008 3:08:41 PM

yeah, for real. it makes you look like someone who has no ambition or direction.

8/22/2008 3:15:14 PM

Oh, I have many, many more other than Stern.

Gary Larson, bachelor's degree in communications, Washington State University

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Larson

[Edited on August 22, 2008 at 5:17 PM. Reason : PS: ]

8/22/2008 5:16:36 PM

because what he learned in his BA program inspired him create the international phenomenon known as "The Far Side"

so whatever... thats two. you only have 13,537,091 more BA-to-fame-and-financial-independence anecdotes to provide before whatever stupid-ass point you're trying to make becomes valid.















(come on man, you're not that stupid. are you?)





[Edited on August 22, 2008 at 5:39 PM. Reason : ]

8/22/2008 5:38:03 PM

Bill Gates doesn't have a degree at all

(well he probably has some honorary degrees from donating billions of dollars to schools)

8/22/2008 5:40:12 PM

yes, see. theres evidence that BA grads will always succeed

[/hooksaw]

8/22/2008 5:42:00 PM

who is claiming that BA grads will "always" succeed?

btw I have a BS in a completely unrelated field than I work in, and I'm doing ok

8/22/2008 5:43:06 PM

hooksaw, apparently.

8/22/2008 5:46:10 PM

Quote :

"yeah, for real. it makes you look like someone who has no ambition or direction."

lol.

Yeah. Meet me in real life and then try and tell me that.

8/22/2008 8:56:39 PM

okay. bwn?

8/23/2008 2:20:25 AM

I wish I would have gotten a BS in CompSci but alas, a BA in human resources. Not that it's hindered me, just sayin

8/23/2008 9:30:40 AM

8/23/2008 6:07:10 PM

There's a shitload of douchebaggery going on in this thread.

Quote :

"like my adviser told me, "you can 'do classical religious history' with an engineering degree, but you can't do engineering with a religious studies degree.""

Nope.

Also, the argument for getting a BA is not that you have some shot at becoming a Nobel prize winner. It's pretty clear that you should get a BA if you're interested in the material and learning it will enrich you as a person. If you can find something to do with it later, then great. If not, you picked up some knowledge that meant something to you, and that's exactly what a University is for.

8/23/2008 11:26:18 PM

^^ Truly an insightful comment, please tell us more

[Edited on August 23, 2008 at 11:27 PM. Reason : .]

8/23/2008 11:27:03 PM

Quote :

"computer science is neither "engineering" nor pure science. i dont care what the so-called "software engineers" want you to think."

your a moron

8/24/2008 12:24:31 AM

Quote :

"your a moron"

classic

8/24/2008 1:21:09 AM

Quote :

"Who defines what's useful? (Yes, that's right, people with money and/or guns.) "

How do you think they got the money?

By being useful, of course...they didn't just wake up one morning in a pool of $100-bills, blessed with the ability to determine for everyone else what is and is not useful and worthy of monetary compensation.

8/24/2008 10:21:02 AM

Quote :

"By being useful, of course...they didn't just wake up one morning in a pool of $100-bills, blessed with the ability to determine for everyone else what is and is not useful and worthy of monetary compensation."

In fact that happens quite a lot and it's called inheritance.

8/24/2008 11:13:14 AM

no shit.

that's also not really a significant player against my argument.

8/24/2008 12:00:50 PM

Barack Obama, BA political science, Columbia University

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

NB: Of course, Obama did obtain a professional degree.

[Edited on August 25, 2008 at 3:05 AM. Reason : PS: ]

8/25/2008 3:04:40 AM

Quote :

"no shit. that's also not really a significant player against my argument."

Well, I mean, it kind of is, given that a very large percentage of people with money and power inherited the money and used it to get the power. I think you'll find that a disproportionate number of Presidents were born in a pool of $100 bills.

8/25/2008 3:05:11 PM

As one who was switched from halfway through a Computer Engineering Degree to a Liberal Arts Degree (BA In Religion and Philosophy). I think it's clear that money is definitely on the side of the technical Degree, but with that said, I wanted to show this article, which might give an idea on why some pursue a Liberal Arts Degree:

Quote :

"WHAT IS LIBERAL EDUCATION? by Mortimer Adler Let us first be clear about the meaning of the liberal arts and liberal educations. The liberal arts are traditionally intended to develop the faculties of the human mind, those powers of intelligence and imagination without which no intellectual work can be accomplished. Liberal education is not tied to certain academic subjects, such as philosophy, history, literature, music, art, and other so-called “humanities.” In the liberal-arts tradition, scientific disciplines, such as mathematics and physics, are considered equally liberal, that is, equally able to develop the powers of the mind. The liberal-arts tradition goes back to the medieval curriculum. It consisted to two parts. The first part, trivium, comprised grammar, rhetoric, and logic. It taught the arts of reading and writing, of listening and speaking, and of sound thinking. The other part, the quadrivium, consisted of arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music (not audible music, but music conceived as a mathematical science). It taught the arts of observation, calculation, and measurement, how to apprehend the quantitative aspect of things. Nowadays, of course, we would add many more sciences, natural and social. This is just what has been done in the various modern attempts to renew liberal education. Liberal education, including all the traditional arts as well as the newer sciences, is essential for the development of top-flight scientists. Without it, we can train only technicians, who cannot understand the basic principles behind the motions they perform. We can hardly expect such skilled automatons to make new discoveries of any importance. A crash program of merely technical training would probably end in a crash-up for basic science. The connection of liberal education with scientific creativity is not mere speculation. It is a matter of historical fact that the great German scientists of the nineteenth century had a solid background in the liberal arts. They all went through a liberal education which embraced Greek, Latin, logic, philosophy, and history, in addition to mathematics, physics, and other sciences. Actually, this has been the educational preparation of European scientists down to the present time. Einstein, Bohr, Fermi, and other great modern scientists were developed not by technical schooling, but by liberal education. Despite all of the ranting and hullabaloo since Sputnik I was propelled into the skies, this has been broadly true of Russian scientists, too. If you will just note the birth dates of the men who have done the basic work in Soviet science, it will be apparent to you that they could not have received their training under any new system of education. As for the present educational setup in the Soviet Union, which many alarmists are demanding that we emulate, it seems to contain something besides technical training and concentration on the natural sciences and mathematics. The aim of liberal education, however, is not to produce scientists. It seeks to develop free human beings who know how to use their minds and are able to think for themselves. Its primary aim is not the development of professional competence, although a liberal education is indispensable for any intellectual profession. It produces citizens who can exercise their political liberty responsibly. It develops cultivated persons who can use their leisure fruitfully. It is an education for all free men, whether they intend to be scientists or not. Our educational problem is how to produce free men, not hordes of uncultivated, trained technicians. Only the best liberal schooling can accomplish this. It must include all the humanities as well as mathematics and the sciences. It must exclude all merely vocational and technical training. "

8/25/2008 8:46:13 PM

youve got about 10 minutes to edit that and make it so a person can freakin' READ it.

in other words ... put some damn whitespace between the paragraphs. what kind of liberal arts major are you, anyhow?




[Edited on August 25, 2008 at 9:08 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2008 9:07:40 PM

Quote :

"NB: Of course, Obama did obtain a professional degree. "

no one is disputing that a JD >> BA. its also a given that liberal arts from a top tier university best prepares one for the legal profession.

the question at hand is whether or not a 4-year BA grad is prepared to enter today's workforce. generally speaking, in a broad statistical sweep ... they are not.


now, come on dude. stay with us please.




[Edited on August 25, 2008 at 9:11 PM. Reason : ]

8/25/2008 9:10:01 PM