^^ It doesn't matter what the police requests were if the requests weren't legal.

9/2/2008 6:55:07 PM

Quote :

"3rd video, he was asked to move back, in this case though i don't see what threat he was."

He also pushed the dude into the street, then accused him of impeding traffic (or some such, I'd have to watch again), and they later have the guy with their hands around his neck like they are strangling him while a couple of other cops have his arms restrained.

The whole time the guy is asking what he had done and the cop might as well be saying "you're getting pushed by me, that's what you're doing wrong!!11!!".

9/2/2008 7:06:50 PM

Quote :

"I hope one day someone burns down your house, because you probably have insurance to cover it so it's not like they're hurting you at all. "

Personal Property =/ Corporate Property
and
Burning down a house =/ some superficial damage (breaking windows, graffiti, tearing up benches, burning dumpsters)

9/2/2008 7:09:12 PM

Quote :

"As far as tearing up corporate property I could honestly care less. A) They probably have insurance B) They are probably fucking shit up equally as bad somewhere else C) No one person actually owns that property, so its not like any form of intimidation or really violent in my opinion."

Destroying corporate property raises prices, not just on that company's products but on pretty much everything.

1) Insurance gets more expensive.
2) Even if insurance covers all of the actual damage (which it may or may not), the company is losing productivity and, therefore, money.

etc., etc.

9/2/2008 10:14:21 PM

if some broken windows cut into their profit margin too much then I'm sure the Fed can bail them out when the time comes

9/2/2008 10:37:21 PM

that woman was a dumbass. she's lucky the cops were nice to her and shot her with mace instead of cracking her skull and/or throwing her down and cuffing her with a knee in her back.

note also the relatively very long time between when she started waving her pathetic little flower to the geared-up riot police before they finally maced her. i'd bet all my money she was *repeatedly* told to step back

i'm not sure about the second shot though. it could have been excessive. it could also have been the cop sensing she might have been considering another attempt, so he gave her a friendly parting gift: "y'all don't come back now, ya hear!"

im generally opposed to the increasing militarization of local police forces and what seems to be a rise in oppressive police tactics.

but this woman was a dumbass and got exactly what she asked for.

anyhow, i've been maced. it is an intense but brief period of suck, then it goes away and you're back to your normal retarded self again.




[Edited on September 2, 2008 at 10:48 PM. Reason : ]

9/2/2008 10:47:23 PM

^ i agree with this assessment


i know. i know.

9/2/2008 10:48:20 PM

Quote :

". . . she just had a flower. If there was an issue with her, grab her, arrest her, and bypass her. But even then, why would you do that?"

I would much rather be maced than arrested

9/3/2008 12:08:53 AM

A++, will watch again!

9/3/2008 1:41:15 AM

Quote :

"The arguments in here are pretty lame."

How about this? Cops are armed thugs. They should stop harassing protesters and press immediately. I can't believe those idiots arrested Amy Goodman. Y'all justifying police behavior disgusts me. Who cares if she wasn't obeying them? No one should obey oppressors. Attacking folks for not following orders is immoral and unjust.

9/3/2008 11:21:12 AM

9/3/2008 11:24:26 AM

damn civil peaceful protesters

9/3/2008 4:42:02 PM

Quote :

"Who cares if she wasn't obeying them?"

i care dammit.

you have to obey police for a reason, if you don't it's a crime. police are not irrational people, they are people just like you and me, and have a right to tell someone to back up, and if they don't... they have the same right to detain them or use force, to protect themselves and the general public.

it's one thing to have a peaceful protest, you have the right for freedom of speech.

it's an entirely different thing to not listen to law enforcement, to riot, to bring harm or threaten other people or property.

in most municipal laws:

Quote :

"It is unlawful for any person to willfully and without authority interfere with any officer of the City in the Discharge of his or her duty, or to fail or refuse to comply with the order of any officer having police power within the City."

9/3/2008 4:55:36 PM

Quote :

"you have to obey police for a reason, if you don't it's a crime."

UM, NO

9/3/2008 5:03:44 PM

in this particular instance, UM, YES.

we are not talking about a normal pedestrian here, these people were congregated for a reason.

Minneapolis, Minnesota - Code of Ordinances
http://library3.municode.com:80/default/template.htm?view=browse&doc_action=setdoc&doc_keytype=tocid&doc_key=c4e1db4b1d5feea26c06a8e565c131a6&infobase=11490

Quote :

"385.90. Disorderly conduct. No person, in any public or private place, shall engage in, or prepare, attempt, offer or threaten to engage in, or assist or conspire with another to engage in, or congregate because of, any riot, fight, brawl, tumultuous conduct, act of violence, or any other conduct which disturbs the peace and quiet of another save for participating in a recognized athletic contest."

9/3/2008 5:09:25 PM

There is a riot, people breaking windows, destroying public and private property. These people are wearing scarves and masks over their faces. Police are called in to disperse the crowed who is unlawfully congregating on public right of ways. Crowd refuses to disperse, so police use very less than lethal means to disperse them.

Watch these videos, these people's sole intent was to cause trouble and illicit a response from the police. They came prepared. In some of the videos on CNN last night you can clearly see these "peaceful protesters" throwing rocks and bottles at police.

I dislike the militarization of police forces, but this was riot control and is a bit different. These people came to cause trouble, the police weren't going after them.

9/3/2008 5:20:26 PM

Quote :

"This was pretty much, let's be dicks and provoke the police to take action, then cry about it because they did"

9/3/2008 5:22:08 PM

Quote :

"you have to obey police for a reason, if you don't it's a crime."

Lol. I guess this is what that cop (at University Towers IIRC) believed when he asked that chick to take her clothes off that time.

9/3/2008 5:22:17 PM

the protesters are there to disrupt the RNC, cause damage, riot and be a general pain in the ass. The riot police, who are trying to protect life and property and maintain a civil city use less than lethal means, and the hippie anarchists cry about it. maybe if they acted like civilized people instead of purposely being belligerent the cops would not need to spray them with mace, which is far less dangerous than a tazer or rubber bullets

9/3/2008 5:33:50 PM

Quote :

"police are not irrational people, they are people just like you and me, and have a right to tell someone to back up, and if they don't... they have the same right to detain them or use force, to protect themselves and the general public."

Yeah, let me go find a police officer, tell him to back up, and when he doesn't I'll attempt to detain him using force.

I'm sure that will go over well.

9/3/2008 5:48:08 PM

Id rather live in an anarchist liberal la la land, where you can do whatever you want with no consequence than a fascist police state

9/3/2008 5:52:19 PM

thanks God and jbtilley for taking my words out of context, you must be just trolling.

when police are being endangered or being threatened, or have a reasonable cause for suspicion of intent to inflict harm, THEN YES you have to obey them when they tell you to back up. like i said before it's exactly like self-defense, you have to be threatened first.

you don't have to wear a mask or being throwing bottles for police to have a reasonable cause to arrest you. if they are securing an area and you cross the line, you deserve to be arrested. in all these videos everyone was clearly warned. the only person that was acted upon improperly was the news reporter just standing on the sidewalk as he was not at risk of doing any harm.

it's not a fascist police state... I live in Denver and never once had any qualms with what the police were doing, the highly-visible increased number of police didn't bother me one bit. in fact, there were MANY protesters downtown Denver ALL WEEK LONG that did not get arrested and didn't have any run-ins with the law.

you have no idea what you are talking about, fascist police state my ass.

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 6:45 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2008 6:38:57 PM

Quote :

"police are not supposed to be irrational people"

9/3/2008 8:02:35 PM

Quote :

"you have to obey police for a reason, if you don't it's a crime."

I have no respect for laws, much less manifestly unjust ones.

Quote :

"police are not irrational people, they are people just like you and me, and have a right to tell someone to back up, and if they don't... they have the same right to detain them or use force, to protect themselves and the general public."

What on Earth are you talking about? I don't know about you, but I've never used force on a person for not backing up. I must have missed that right. Your suggestion that cops are like you and me is laughable. They have special powers. They hate it when mere civilians do the things they do. (Thugs and gangsters, for example.)

Quote :

"The riot police, who are trying to protect life and property and maintain a civil city use less than lethal means, and the hippie anarchists cry about it."

Civility maintained by force isn't worth it. And anarchists do more than cry. Some of us are out there confronting the pigs directly.

Quote :

"if they are securing an area and you cross the line, you deserve to be arrested."

That's utter garbage. They have no right to treat people this way. We shouldn't stand for it.

9/3/2008 8:43:59 PM

Quote :

"it's not a fascist police state... I live in Denver and never once had any qualms with what the police were doing,"

lol, classic. It never happens to me, therefore it must not exist!

Bravo, idiot.

9/3/2008 8:59:24 PM

great post joe.

9/3/2008 9:15:17 PM

10 Sec Youtube video = fascist state

9/3/2008 9:29:57 PM

Quote :

"police are not irrational people,"

It certainly takes a irrational person to just point blank spray someone in the face with mace when said person certainly wasnt committing any violent acts.

Quote :

"These people are wearing scarves and masks over their faces."

If you take a close look many of the police arent wearing nametags and sometimes not even badges which im pretty sure is a requirement for officers of the law. they do this so that you cant complain about a specific officer trampling your rights when they try to take you to court. I guess the people in the crowd werent the only anonymous ones.

Quote :

"Police are called in to disperse the crowed who is unlawfully congregating on public right of ways"

again this congregation wouldnt be a big deal if the convention werent in town. I guess some lieutenant or mayor saying you cant congregate here has more say than the people that live and work on that street.

Quote :

""This was pretty much, let's be dicks and provoke the police to take action, then cry about it because they did""

I wont speak for everyone but . . . Your damn right they were trying to provoke the police, direct action is the only way to protest their ever increasing authority over our everyday lives.
also
if by "cry about it" you mean excercising your rights as a human being and those guaranteed by the constitution then OK.

Quote :

"it's not a fascist police state... I live in Denver and never once had any qualms with what the police were doing, the highly-visible increased number of police didn't bother me one bit. "

thats b/c you dont question the system of control they have over you. You immediately follow all of their commands, and are always going "where your supposed to be". Listen, I dont know you so I may be wrong, but the police in downtown denver where there to CONTROL you and tell you where you could and could not be. . . . . . Fuck that.


Finally, let me say that Im not trying to attack the police, they are just doing what they are told 90% of the time, they are just doing what they are paid to do.

What I do question is the authority given to the Police higher ups/mayor (whoever it doesnt matter) that allows them to tell you what you can do and where you can be in YOUR city and then enforce that with violence.

PSS:

Quote :

"I have no respect for laws, much less manifestly unjust ones"

and

Quote :

"Some of us are out there confronting the pigs directly. "

9/3/2008 11:33:04 PM

answer this honestly.......why cant you have your protest in a civil manner. why cant you march where you are allowed to, and not turn into chaotic vandals. Im pretty sure there would be less tear gas from the fascist pigs if you just acted like civil people. I mean damn, no one is taking away your right to protest or opressing your freedoms, they just dont want you destroying shit, acting like animals and endangering people. follow some Gandhi and MLK advice and have a civil peaceful protest.....hell if you did that you'd have less trouble from the cops and people might actually take you seriously. If you show the cops, laws and city some damn respect, Im sure there would be less problems on all ends.

Comments like these make the general public take you less seriously and it makes the cops treat you as a threat

Quote :

""Some of us are out there confronting the pigs directly. "

Quote :

""I have no respect for laws, much less manifestly unjust ones""

Quote :

"Your damn right they were trying to provoke the police, direct action is the only way to protest their ever increasing authority over our everyday lives."

the door swings both ways people

9/4/2008 1:23:36 AM

Quote :

"follow some Gandhi and MLK advice and have a civil peaceful protest.....hell if you did that you'd have less trouble from the cops and people might actually take you seriously."

You know, MLKJ wasn't such a clean and respectable figure in his era, particularly early on. Civil rights protestors weren't so different form the anarchists of today. Sometimes they confronted cops and damaged property. Opponents like Jesse Helms used this to justify harsh police tactics against any and all demonstrators.

It's the same old story.

9/4/2008 1:30:45 AM

that doesnt answer or change my question......why not answer it. why cant you just be civil with your protests. if the overall context was nothing but cops abusing a civil protest, you might have a leg to stand on.....but when the overall context of the protest is a riot, well it makes it hard to complain when the cops try to quell it.

9/4/2008 1:35:44 AM

The lady with the flower wasn't rioting.

The charity workers they cops arrested weren't rioting.

9/4/2008 1:49:28 AM

Quote :

"You know, MLKJ wasn't such a clean and respectable figure in his era, particularly early on. Civil rights protestors weren't so different form the anarchists of today. Sometimes they confronted cops and damaged property. Opponents like Jesse Helms used this to justify harsh police tactics against any and all demonstrators."

what? i dont know wtf point you think you're making, but you are SERIOUSLY deluded into some hippy trippy vision of anarchists, dancing like sugarplums in your head.

and you have complete ignorance of what MLK was doing in context of the larger civil rights movement.

that post is so stupid, i dont know where to start.

for one: people were being lynched, killed, their homes burned down, etc. etc. with the police turning a blind eye if not outright assisting the perpetrators.

all because they dared to demand equal rights as citizens, as humans.

unlike anarchists, they were NOT callign for the dismantling of all laws and redefining society in some sort of treehugging syndicalist collective with no rules and no government.

for two: goddamn thats a stupid fucking post. gtfo with this dumb shit.

9/4/2008 3:18:17 AM

Quote :

"why cant you have your protest in a civil manner"

If my protest is "civil" that just means I am protesting on the police's terms. I am only allowed to stand in certain places in my city when I am complaining about the leaders in the city. I am still just following their orders and consenting to their authority over me.

also if your effort is to call attention to the fact that police are able to violently enforce whatever rules they establish, you are unable to do this unless the police turn violent. How many videos of protestors in the "Free-speach zones" have you seen on the Internet, probably none. Those protestors sit around and wait to be heard by lawmakers,but none of them listen, These protestors in the streets DEMAND to be heard by lawmakers and everyone else.

Quote :

"follow some Gandhi and MLK advice and have a civil peaceful protest.....hell if you did that you'd have less trouble from the cops and people might actually take you seriously"

Well if you take a look at Ghandi and MLK they also invoked police violence, granted they just didnt have to do much to get the police to react. (police today are so much smarter than they used to be, they understand their actions could have consequences with public opinion)

Civil rights also didn't protest when they were allowed to or where they where allowed to. In fact they made it a point to go where they werent allowed and do things they werent allowed to do to call attention to how unfair it was.

Quote :

"all because they dared to demand equal rights as citizens, as humans. "

as a human I demand the right to not live under authority that I dont consent to, but is enforced on me with violence or the threat of violence.

Quote :

"they were NOT callign for the dismantling of all laws and redefining society"

Your right, but I would argue Civil rights activists didnt go far enough. Imagine the equality among people if we did redefine society into one where rules arent established by some huge hiearchal institution who then enforces those rules with violence.

9/4/2008 6:31:37 AM

Quote :

"Finally, let me say that Im not trying to attack the police, they are just doing what they are told 90% of the time, they are just doing what they are paid to do. What I do question is the authority given to the Police higher ups/mayor (whoever it doesnt matter) that allows them to tell you what you can do and where you can be in YOUR city and then enforce that with violence."

+

Quote :

"Your damn right they were trying to provoke the police, direct action is the only way to protest their ever increasing authority over our everyday lives."

=
Does not compute.

So basically you are perfectly content with shooting the messenger for the injustices you perceive imposed upon you by the 'police higher ups/mayor'? It sounds a lot like you are just making excuses to justify throwing rocks and bottles at the cops under the guise of the tyrannical laws that you are under. Im fairly confident that I can come up with a number of tried and true 'direct actions' that dont include violence and covered faces and are far more likely to be taken seriously.

Quote :

"Those protestors sit around and wait to be heard by lawmakers,but none of them listen, These protestors in the streets DEMAND to be heard by lawmakers and everyone else."

And in the end, neither of them will achieve their goal (well, stated goals at least). The only difference is that the ones you are supporting won't ever be taken seriously.

9/4/2008 7:11:30 AM

Quote :

"that post is so stupid, i dont know where to start."

Only if you intentionally miss the point. People these days seem to think everyone loved MLKJ in his era. That's simply not true. I was countering that myth.

9/4/2008 10:58:00 AM

Im sure the founding fathers meant protesters had to stand civilly in a box when protesting.

9/4/2008 11:02:11 AM

I'm positive they didn't mean you could run around throwing shit, breaking things and otherwise acting like drunken frat boys at spring break. In fact, they even wrote that down, they called it "the right of the people to peaceably assemble".

9/4/2008 12:33:08 PM

Quote :

"USA #1 I love my freedums!! dem hippies are just communist conspirators! "

nathan, i swear to god i'm going to suspend you if you post any variation of this stupid shit one more time.

9/4/2008 12:36:04 PM

Quote :

"I'm positive they didn't mean you could run around throwing shit, breaking things and otherwise acting like drunken frat boys at spring break. In fact, they even wrote that down, they called it "the right of the people to peaceably assemble"."

yeah, because when they ratified the US Constitution in 1789, it had been... what... six whole years since the Boston Tea Party?

you know they all definitely had forgot about that shit by then. now they were living it up... swimming pools, movie stars ... lighting cuban cigars with $100-bills. You know, being good capitalists and whatnot.

9/4/2008 1:15:13 PM

Maybe the comments should be contained within the relm of facts, there is waaayyyy too much speculation going on. Someone lock this thread...it's worthless.

9/4/2008 1:23:06 PM

Quote :

"Does not compute. "

What I was trying to say is that I realize police are just people too, and they arent necessarily evil or bad (some may be but so are some people in the general population).

However, it just so happens that police are the tool in the system that is supposed to interact with us "common" folks. I want to attack and protest this system, the police become an easy and very representative target of that system.

Quote :

"Im fairly confident that I can come up with a number of tried and true 'direct actions' that dont include violence and covered faces and are far more likely to be taken seriously. "

So could I. There are lots of ways to protest. Soup Kitchens, really really free markets, and helping your neighbor change their flat tire are all examples that come to mind. Trouble is none of these really make people wake up and take notice.

Quote :

"And in the end, neither of them will achieve their goal (well, stated goals at least). The only difference is that the ones you are supporting won't ever be taken seriously. "

says you. Atleast these protestors are trying to change something they see as unjust. You have to live like your life makes a difference. Otherwise, those in charge have won (They would have all change come directly from them, usually for their benefit in some form)

9/4/2008 3:55:30 PM

OH SHIT, THAT'S AMY GOODMAN from democracy now. Shit is ON, man.

[Edited on September 4, 2008 at 3:57 PM. Reason : .]

9/4/2008 3:57:21 PM

^ Indeed.

Quote :

"Nicole was videotaping. Her tape of her own violent arrest is chilling. Police in riot gear charged her, yelling, "Get down on your face." You hear her voice, clearly and repeatedly announcing "Press! Press! Where are we supposed to go?" She was trapped between parked cars. The camera drops to the pavement amidst Nicole's screams of pain. Her face was smashed into the pavement, and she was bleeding from the nose, with the heavy officer with a boot or knee on her back. Another officer was pulling on her leg. Sharif was thrown up against the wall and kicked in the chest, and he was bleeding from his arm."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/04

9/4/2008 9:05:35 PM

I hate to say it, but them being accredited members of the press makes a significant difference in the situation.

It probably shouldn't, but it does.

9/5/2008 12:22:23 PM

Quote :

"If you are ever at a protest and see a bunch of people show up with bandanas over their faces, get the fuck out of there. It means they are about to go all corky and claim the fascists are attacking them. "

nominated.

9/5/2008 2:22:55 PM

Quote :

"If you take a close look many of the police arent wearing nametags and sometimes not even badges which im pretty sure is a requirement for officers of the law. they do this so that you cant complain about a specific officer trampling your rights when they try to take you to court. I guess the people in the crowd werent the only anonymous ones."

Correct, as heard directly from an RPD officer outside a canes game:

Quote :

"..our riot gear is blacked out, no names, we go in, bust skulls, and leave.."

9/5/2008 2:58:30 PM

Quote :

"THey have a right to a peaceful protest, not to act like a bunch of animals and tear shit up. When this shit turns destructive, the police should load up live ammo. I think that would end much of this shit, with only a couple warning shots. Now they know they will get on tv and might get some spray, so they wear thier masks and goggles. just my opinion."

you clearly have never heard of bloody sunday.

9/5/2008 3:06:48 PM

I would have maced her too.

Usually in these situations I do not side with the cops but how the hell did this bitch not notice that she was the only one standing the way and that no one wanted her flower?

9/7/2008 10:45:27 PM

Its what they get for killing flowers

9/8/2008 7:53:07 PM