THIS IS A SERIOUS THREAD

9/3/2008 4:20:08 PM

Quote :

"No, I think you're confused. The name of this thread is "Palin's Babydaddy: I'm A F-ckin Redneck," not "Palin's apparent blindness in regards to teen pregnancy." This thread is about a 17 year old kid who got the VP's daughter pregnant, don't give me this "we're talking about issues" bullshit. This is chit chat bullshit and not relevant discussion for TSB and the election."

I did not mean THIS THREAD, I'm talking about WHY people are legitimately interested in the issue

just because people are dicking around on TWW doesn't mean it doesn't showcase a larger issue at hand, because her daughter's pregnancy brings up that issue very well

I guess I apologize for trying to discuss the real issue in The Soap Box, where these things are normally discussed!

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2008 4:29:15 PM

just imagine if it were a black baby daddy...cant imagine how the media would eat that up

9/3/2008 4:32:10 PM

So, they took all his myspace stuff, and attribute it as literal quotes?

I'm glad he doesn't post on tww.

Reminds me of the time when I posted my airsoft bb gun on my facebook. Some dork saw it and had HR from my company contact me about it. Something about how I might be a threat to the welfare of other employees.

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 4:46 PM. Reason : nostalgic]

9/3/2008 4:44:19 PM

At least the kid plays hockey but then again he lives in Alaska so he'd be a little bitch if he didn't. Redneck hockey player? Does not compute.

9/3/2008 4:48:28 PM

remember when Faux called Michelle Obama a "baby mama"

9/3/2008 4:50:47 PM

whats funny (to me) is that i didnt even know about this Facebook-Redneck thing until my Finnish-national mother-in-law read about it on her favorite Finnish-language news site.

Face it: all of Europe the rest of the world is collectively splitting their sides over us.







[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 6:15 PM. Reason : it's beyond continents, now]

9/3/2008 6:13:09 PM

I'm not sure how that's at all surprising. Europe has laughed at us since at least Clinton, and I'm sure earlier, but I wasn't paying attention before that.

9/3/2008 6:18:48 PM

Oh well, at least one thing is still certain.

Sarah Palin's previously stated positions:

-- her opposition to legal abortion even in the case of rape*
-- her goal to remove sex-education and teach abstinance-only in schools*
-- her personal cutting of programs to assist teenage mothers*

all these measures supported by Gov Palin, they are obviously a raging success in her home state -- not to mention her own home -- and these positions are surely ready for national distribution.

So, I for one am just glad our backwater secessionist* leaders continue to legislate their peculiar, Pentecostal morality* for us and are still able to hold a clear conscience.





[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 6:28 PM. Reason : *true story]

9/3/2008 6:20:40 PM

[Edited on September 3, 2008 at 8:28 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2008 8:27:52 PM

Quote :

"this is who's going to be hanging around the White House"

I'd rather have this kid than the America-hating, sneering terrorist buddies that Obama will let into the White House.

9/3/2008 11:36:18 PM

Quote :

"Sarah Palin's previously stated positions: -- her opposition to legal abortion even in the case of rape* -- her goal to remove sex-education and teach abstinance-only in schools* -- her personal cutting of programs to assist teenage mothers* all these measures supported by Gov Palin, they are obviously a raging success in her home state -- not to mention her own home -- and these positions are surely ready for national distribution. "

9/3/2008 11:38:32 PM

Quote :

"Luckily rednecks don't get to become President. "

9/4/2008 12:13:18 AM

OL' HICKORY!!!!1

9/4/2008 12:24:17 AM

I bet they got preg on a pullout precum too. Sperm also lives longer in cold environments. Alaskan pipeline ftw.

The stupidest part about this whole thing is that if she was a few months older NOBODY would care.

9/4/2008 12:55:15 AM

Quote :

"-- her opposition to legal abortion even in the case of rape* "

Why do people like to throw that rape part in there? Last I checked, abortion due to rape were less than 1% of abortions.

There's a video of a debate with Palin and other gov. and she really came off as very cold-hearted when this issue came up. She didn't bat an eye or show any emotion at all when answering the question regarding this, where the 2 other candidates were visibly disturbed by the question. I'm surprised that people liked her after that...

9/4/2008 1:00:40 AM

^^^ Bless his heart. Andrew Jackson: one of the few, if only presidents to tell the Supreme Court to shove their decisions where the sun doesn't shine.

"John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!"

9/4/2008 1:02:42 AM

^ Yes, bless his racist murdering heart. Fuck you for lauding his complete disregard for checks & balances.

9/4/2008 1:32:36 AM

bless the $20 bill which is all powerful

9/4/2008 1:38:11 AM

Quote :

"Sperm also lives longer in cold environments. Alaskan pipeline ftw."

X soapbox users with <1000 posts



[Edited on September 4, 2008 at 1:52 AM. Reason : i really hope you werent serious]

9/4/2008 1:51:33 AM

Quote :

"Why do people like to throw that rape part in there? Last I checked, abortion due to rape were less than 1% of abortions. "

well, thats about the stupidest goddamned argument ive heard from you. im disappointed really

yes it's true, 1% give the reason that they were forced to have sex. out of 1.2 to 1.4 million abortions each year (In 2005, 1.21 million abortions were performed)

so... ~12,000 women become pregnant due to rape (and some of them are incest) each year.

but Sarah Palin, will DENY them the ability to get an abortion? and YOU don't care because... this group is not statistically significant enough for your sensibilities???

are you really saying this?

9/4/2008 3:31:01 AM

moron's been saying weird stuff lately.

Like contradicting himself midsentence and just being kinda weird and unclear.

9/4/2008 3:58:25 AM

why should a baby die because a man raped someone?

9/4/2008 8:05:41 AM

Quote :

"Week 8 --1 inch, 1/15 ounce: The embryo now resembles a human being."

Up until then I think it's questionable whether something not even a fetus can be called a baby.

9/4/2008 8:15:34 AM

^^^^ If that were the only loophole to be able to obtain a legal abortion i wonder how quickly that 12,000 would magically rise to 100,000+? Hell, maybe 1.2 million pregnancies by rape. I think its pretty retarded, but drawing a line like that becomes impossible, and if you realize that, you either have to be totally for or against it.

[Edited on September 4, 2008 at 8:20 AM. Reason : im slow]

9/4/2008 8:17:54 AM

Quote :

"^ Yes, bless his racist murdering heart. Fuck you for lauding his complete disregard for checks & balances."

Quote :

"sar·casm [sahr-kaz-uhm] –noun 1. harsh or bitter derision or irony. 2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms."

9/4/2008 10:40:41 AM

9/4/2008 2:40:06 PM

Quote :

"but Sarah Palin, will DENY them the ability to get an abortion? and YOU don't care because... this group is not statistically significant enough for your sensibilities???"

It's a dumb position, but I was trying (and failed) to play the devil's advocate.

But, I don't recall Palin explicitly saying she would "DENY" them the right to an abortion. In the one debate I saw she used the phrase "she would CHOOSE life" which to be sounds like doublespeak designed to appease the religious right, while giving her wiggle room when she doesn't follow through on banning abortion.

In general though, i'm sick of hearing about abortion, because Roe v Wade will NEVER be overturned, if it wasn't overturned under the first 6 years of Bush + Republican congress. Republicans use it as a gimmick issue to rally the religious right, but have absolutely no intentions of doing anything about it. McCain is rumored to have wanted Lieberman, a pro-choicer, so he obviously doesn't give a shit about religious views on abortion. So why do people talk about abortion so much?

The only purpose at this point is as a proxy for the general right-wing religious wackiness that a strict anti-choice position represents.

9/4/2008 2:48:15 PM

I'm not sure what congress has to do with Roe v Wade.

But if McCain were to be elected and nominated a couple of ardent pro-lifers to the SCOTUS that overturned Roe v Wade, I think you could say goodbye to the Republican party. It would be party suicide, and you'd have a split into social conservatives and fiscal conservatives.

9/4/2008 2:56:19 PM

I asked my catholic friend that if his g/f got raped walking back to her car from the bar one night from some gangster if he would support her having an abortion. Pretty much he said if it was god's will to make her pregnant she should have the baby and killing it is absolutly wrong.

That is awesome to me passing down violent rape genes to a woman who will have a kid out of wedlock with a father in jail. Maybe after his term is up the g/f can invite Mr. Raper to the kid's 15th bday

9/4/2008 3:04:36 PM

9/5/2008 10:54:52 AM

glad to see we're talking about issues here...

Quote :

"Fuck you for lauding his complete disregard for checks & balances."

Kind of ironic, given the that SC has pretty much completely disregarded them since Marbury-Madison...

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 12:12 PM. Reason : ]

9/5/2008 12:09:18 PM

9/5/2008 1:11:45 PM

Quote :

"galdiator"

9/5/2008 1:15:39 PM

Quote :

"I asked my catholic friend that if his g/f got raped walking back to her car from the bar one night from some gangster if he would support her having an abortion. Pretty much he said if it was god's will to make her pregnant she should have the baby and killing it is absolutly wrong. That is awesome to me passing down violent rape genes to a woman who will have a kid out of wedlock with a father in jail. Maybe after his term is up the g/f can invite Mr. Raper to the kid's 15th bday"

You're an idiot.

The only question that matters as far as abortion is this: is the fetus a unique human being with a right to life?

If the answer is yes, then that child must then have full legal protection of his life. Taking it is a crime. Nobody can take a position that an exception should be made, and that all life should be legally protected - unless that person's father committed a certain crime.

Allowing abortion in the case of rape/incest, while being 'pro-life,' is the most nonsensical position possible. Is the child a human being with rights or not? That is the only question. The crimes of the parent(s) are entirely irrelevant.

If the answer is no, and the fetus is not a unique human being with a right to life, then the crimes of the father are still irrelevant, as far as legal protection goes. The fetus didn't qualify as a human person anyway.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 1:39 PM. Reason : a]

9/5/2008 1:34:25 PM

Quote :

"I think that bringing up a VP candidate's 17 year old daughter's bf is ridiculous. next people are going to find out something about her daughter's boyfriends father's friend did in college and say she is unqualified."

It might be ridiculous but I think a lot of us just think it entertaining and even funny... nothing more. I'm not making any judgments about her ability to act as VP because her daughter got knocked up by a 'neck at 17 years old...

9/5/2008 2:12:30 PM

^^

yeah you tell that 16 yr old rape victim that she has to be a good mother and raise the baby of the guy that raped her. Screw her plans for college, career, other life goals, having kids after meeting Mr. Right. It was god's will for bubba to attack her and plant his seed and make her a mother out of wedlock.



Just what we need to pass on barbarian rape genes.

Quote :

"The only question that matters as far as abortion is this: is the fetus a unique human being with a right to life? If the answer is yes, then that child must then have full legal protection of his life. Taking it is a crime. Nobody can take a position that an exception should be made, and that all life should be legally protected - unless that person's father committed a certain crime. "

If the fetus can not survive outside the mother than i think she has a say. Hence why partial birth abortions are outlawed. In my mind a 4 week old embryo that is 0.5" does not qualify for a child. Otherwise what we going to do; start charging mothers for child neglect if they do something that accidently causes a miss carriage.

9/5/2008 3:57:57 PM

That "God's will" thing irks me. You don't know what God's will is. What if it's his will for you to abort the fetus?

Plus, I thought God gave everyone free will. Am I wrong about that?

Quote :

"If the fetus can not survive outside the mother than i think she has a say."

Word. It's just a parasite until it can survive on its own.

9/5/2008 4:09:17 PM

Quote :

"yeah you tell that 16 yr old rape victim that she has to be a good mother and raise the baby of the guy that raped her. Screw her plans for college, career, other life goals, having kids after meeting Mr. Right. It was god's will for bubba to attack her and plant his seed and make her a mother out of wedlock. Just what we need to pass on barbarian rape genes."

The rape victim's plans for college, career, kids with Mr. Right, etc. have no bearing whatsoever on the personhood of her unborn child. Being a victim of one crime does not grant a right to perpetrate another.

Notice I said nothing of God or his will.

My position is firm, but that doesn't mean I am without sympathy for victims like this. My wife and two of her friends have been crisis pregnancy counselors for a few years. I don't just know the stories - I know the people. And we plan to adopt at least a few kids in the (relatively) near future, because we have a heart for them, and we encourage others to do so as well.

Quote :

"If the fetus can not survive outside the mother than i think she has a say. Hence why partial birth abortions are outlawed. In my mind a 4 week old embryo that is 0.5" does not qualify for a child. Otherwise what we going to do; start charging mothers for child neglect if they do something that accidently causes a miss carriage."

Then this is your argument that at least some fetuses do not in fact have 'personhood,' and are not entitled to legal protection. Fine. I think you are wrong. But that argument is at least relevant. This line of thought must be the only consideration when deciding whether abortion should be legal or not. That is my point. Rape, incest, etc. are only brought up by people who have no idea what they are talking about, and have never been cross-examined. Unborn children either have a right to live, or they do not. In either case, the behavior of a child's parents is a red herring.

9/5/2008 6:15:31 PM

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=531786&page=1#11752597

Quote :

"Children who are burdens of the state should simply be killed to save us money."

- TULIPlovr

Quote :

"The rape victim's plans for college, career, kids with Mr. Right, etc. have no bearing whatsoever on the personhood of her unborn child. Being a victim of one crime does not grant a right to perpetrate another."

But "crime" is defined by society. Some would say killing a criminal is also a crime, yet the 2 groups (killing a person is a crime, killing a criminal is a crime) rarely intersect, which leads me to believe there is some other motivation for the beliefs besides pure ideology, as you seem to think. Unfortunately, in the sphere of politics, the issue of abortion is not one of ideology, it's only a gimmick. It's foolish in a way to generally expect consistency and rationality from politicians on this issue.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 7:17 PM. Reason : ]

9/5/2008 7:14:13 PM

^Are you dense enough not to recognize the sarcasm? I was mocking his position - rephrasing exactly what he said to make it look worse, while retaining the identical logic.

But it kind of loses its effect after I explain it to you.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 7:17 PM. Reason : a]

9/5/2008 7:17:17 PM

I took it as hyperbole rather than facetiousness. There's no context from you in that thread to tell though.

9/5/2008 7:19:04 PM

you can tell it was sarcasm. Now, if he talks about slaughtering women and children in a war that god allows, you will know he is serious.

9/5/2008 7:21:26 PM

^Unfortunately, most rabidly pro-life people are exactly like that. I generally voted Republican, but never again after their fascist, police-state-loving, nationalistic militarism put itself on full display.

And none of them actually do anything on the pro-life issue anyway.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 7:32 PM. Reason : a]

9/5/2008 7:29:25 PM

Quote :

"Roe v Wade will NEVER be overturned"

NEVER say NEVER. Who knows what the US will be like after 50 years, 100 years, or 500 years...?

Quote :

"Mr. Raper"

Mr. Rapist

Quote :

"The only question that matters as far as abortion is this: is the fetus a unique human being with a right to life? "

While I fully agree with that, and am pro-life (and see abortion as murder plain and simple), I still struggle with the case of rape. Letting the baby be born is a simple technical thing. What about after that? The baby is not a robot... it needs care and love. Can one really ask a mother who was raped to love and be affectionate towards the baby that was conceived due to the rape? Not only is that unfair to ask of her, but I don't think that the vast majority of women (including highly religious almost nun-like women) in such a situation would be able to love a baby lke that, even if they wanted to and really tried hard. That's just human nature.

So, I am torn up on that.

Quote :

"If the fetus can not survive outside the mother than i think she has a say."

Quote :

"Word. It's just a parasite until it can survive on its own."

So, that would be what, until the age of 5? I wonder at what minimum age a typical human would be able to survive on his/her own if let loose in society? So abortions should be allowed till age 5 then, right?

You know, that whole "it can't survive on its own" is the most illogical argument there is in favour of abortion. And I raised that here a few years back, but no one answered it or was able to answer it.

A lot of mammals could survive on their own within days or weeks of being born (i.e., they could move about and feed themselves). But humans are not like that. Not for at least 3-5 years (in primitive societies). I would say not for 7-10 years in highly developed countries. If a baby can't survive on its own for X length of time after being born, it is still a parasite and a leech (I hate using these words to describe a baby, but that's what the pro-abortioners use). So should abortion be allowed during that X length of time? Well I am glad that "it can't survive on its own" is not the legal justification given for abortion being legal, otherwise "abortions" would have to be allowed after birth as well just to be consistent.

Also the "it can't survive on its own" argument would also have room for abandoning or neglecting a baby till it can take of itself. Surely, a parasite can either be killed, or abandoned (dropped off elsewhere), right? To be consistent, the "it can't survive on its own" crowd should have no problem with neglecting a baby (whether it leads to its death or not), or abandoning it on the street or even in a forest to survive on its own, which it surely can't, as it is a parasite.

9/6/2008 5:25:18 AM

Quote :

"I asked my catholic friend that if his g/f got raped walking back to her car from the bar one night from some gangster if he would support her having an abortion. Pretty much he said if it was god's will to make her pregnant she should have the baby and killing it is absolutly wrong."

god's will

quite possibly my two favorite words of all time. so I guess it would also be god's will that she would have to suffer through a violent rape? or is this the part where we bring in "free will" to explain evil in the world? but then if we did that, wouldn't it be the rapist's will, his choice, that made her pregnant? oh no, we can't do that. I'll guess we'll have to just, as usual, arbitrarily attribute some events to god's will and some not.




[Edited on September 6, 2008 at 9:05 AM. Reason : .]

9/6/2008 9:04:24 AM

Quote :

"The only question that matters as far as abortion is this: is the fetus a unique human being with a right to life? If the answer is yes, then that child must then have full legal protection of his life. Taking it is a crime. Nobody can take a position that an exception should be made, and that all life should be legally protected - unless that person's father committed a certain crime."

True. Very well said Tulip

If you are pro-life and fighting for the rights of the unborn, then how they came to be conceived should be of no concern to your fight.

9/6/2008 9:09:55 AM

^^ "It is God's will" maybe the explanation given by religious folk, it does nothing to help the other side understand their viewpoint.

A better way for them to explain would be "Abortion is murder, and that's that, regardless of how the baby was conceived".

IOW, basically what TULIPlovr said:

Quote :

"The only question that matters as far as abortion is this: is the fetus a unique human being with a right to life?"

9/6/2008 11:59:48 AM

Quote :

"So, that would be what, until the age of 5? I wonder at what minimum age a typical human would be able to survive on his/her own if let loose in society?"

Well after birth or even with today's technology 7 months in teh womb; a baby can physically survive outside his mother. Social Services can take the baby placing it in an orphanage, foster home, or up for adoption. Before ~7months the baby can not physically survive outside the mother since the lungs have not yet devoloped to the point to sustain life.

9/6/2008 12:12:28 PM

^ http://www.wesleyjsmith.com/blog/2008/02/four-month-premature-baby-doing-well.html

If you throw in decent medical care, the fetus can survive outside the womb after 5 months. Having an abortion at 5 months I think is completely inexcusable

9/7/2008 12:00:13 PM