Quote :

"tell us what he has done, then"

9/5/2008 2:10:28 PM

i was stupid for saying that, hes done literally nothing. I, and the entire LIBERAL population were duped into believing hes actually done something, while being tricked by his great speeches and charisma. I really am stupid.

Listen, I actually like Mccain. I think hes a good guy and smart, and actually would make a good president. But he sold his soul to the devil, aka the neocons and religious right, to get this nomination. He sold out his real beliefs and thats why I don't want him anymore. Obama will be a great president.

I'm not gonna go on fucking wikipedia and look up all the shit that obama has done, that would take too long

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:13 PM. Reason : s]

9/5/2008 2:11:04 PM

Quote :

"i was stupid for saying that, hes done literally nothing. I, and the entire LIBERAL population were duped into believing hes actually done something, while being tricked by his great speeches and charisma. I really am stupid."

so, you can't name any accomplishments. yes, you and the entire LIBERAL population have been duped. By your own damned selves.

Quote :

"I'm not gonna go on fucking wikipedia and look up all the shit that obama has done, that would take too long"

If his accomplishments were so massive, then you should be able to quickly name them... Or, would it take so long to find them because they... don't... exist...? So really, you don't want to actually question your own beliefs. Really telling, isn't it

9/5/2008 2:13:48 PM

speaking of hypocrisy, Sarah Palin was married on August 29, 1988. Track Palin was born April 20, 1989. That's about 7 months, 20 days. Abstinence much?

Sure he could be premature, but I'm not giving Gov. Palin the benefit of the doubt. Looks like shotgun weddings are a bit of a family tradition.

9/5/2008 2:13:48 PM

Quote :

"From what I understand she is: pro-creationism in schools. pro-abstinence only sex ed in schools. the book banning issue is a big concern. she is pro-life. "

I mean, I dont agree with these traditional conservative points, however they are just tiny issues in our world. I dont get the obsession over these things. I refuse to pick my government over them.

No one will EVER know how life was created, teens are always going to fuck, get STD's and make babies (so teach them what they need to know at home - dont rely on schools to do everything) and abortion affects a very small, small portion of our population.

Focus on some real shit.

9/5/2008 2:15:49 PM

to be fair, abortion affects a much larger part of our population than simple a "very small, small portion." Even still, it'd be like saying "murder affects such a small part of our population that it's not worth worrying about..."

Not to say that abortion is actually a very important issue in the context of other issues, but to argue it on that premise is kind of silly.

^^^ Thank you for telling us something we don't already know. I guess she should have just been responsible and had an abortion, right? It's not possible that her experience shaped her belief, is it? naaaaaaaah.

9/5/2008 2:17:54 PM

ok..so what is the percentage...like 5%?

9/5/2008 2:18:58 PM

The Obama-Lugar Bill, the Obama-Coburn bill. Things that are actually law.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:20 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2008 2:20:03 PM

that would depend on how we defined the percentage. Are we going to include only the mothers? Will we ignore the possible children of aborted children? Will we ignore the parents of the mother and father? Will we ignore the potential friends of the aborted children?


Wow, Obama-Lugar: $48million dollars in a trillion dollar budget. For something we already do...
Wow, Obama-Coburn: A database with about 5 tables in it. Whew!

9/5/2008 2:20:15 PM

I just don't understand how Palin expects abstinence to work for America when it obviously didn't work for her or her daughter. I mean that's 2 for 2 with the Palin women. Not a winning record

9/5/2008 2:21:40 PM

holy shit burro, youre right. im so misinformed and have been led to believe all this bullshit by the liberal media that I didn't realize that Obama is the biggest mistake of a presidential candidate ever. Im glad you changed my mind.

Now stfu and go watch fox news

9/5/2008 2:22:28 PM

hypothetical scenario:

lets say i'm running for president and i personally believe in creation and not evolution (which i dont btw, but bear with me)...if i was willing to let each individual state decide how they wanted to handle creation and evolution, and not have a federal mandate about what every state must do (since states arent all the same), why would my personal opinion on the issue matter?

9/5/2008 2:24:43 PM

^^^ i know, right? Two data points in a population of millions. What proof!

^^ I said nothing about Obama's choice as a president. I am quoting YOU on Obama's mythical, non-existent accomplishments that you tout so highly.
And Fox News. Haha. Good work, man. Do you know how often I watch it? Pretty much never. Unless I want a good laugh. I get my news from *GASP* NPR. How about this: STFU and go watch CNN.

In short, you had no backing for your claim, you made your claim, got called out on your claim, failed to support it, and are now calling people names. Good work, man. Way to represent your candidate so well!

9/5/2008 2:25:41 PM

^^Because we are the United States and not a confederation of States. Furthermore, if you believe in Creationism and not evolution, you are too fucking stupid to be PResident and will cause me to question your other stances.


^I've provided to bills that he authored. One a sweeping ethics reform bill and the other one a major non-proliferation bill. Both are law.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:27 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2008 2:26:58 PM

http://thomas.loc.gov/

at that site you can look up all of the bills he's sponsored in the senate. Most of them are random garbage ones, but that would be found for any senator.

some other shit I found....didn't read it all.

Quote :

"-Obama passed legislation with Republican Senator Jim Talent to give gas stations a tax credit for installing E85 ethanol refueling pumps. The tax credit covers 30 percent of the costs of switching one or more traditional petroleum pumps to E85, which is an 85 percent ethanol/15 percent gasoline blend. -After a number of inmates on death row were found innocent, Senator Obama worked with law enforcement officials to require the videotaping of interrogations and confessions in all capital cases. -His first law was passed with Republican Tom Coburn, a measure to rebuild trust in government by allowing every American to go online and see how and where every dime of their tax dollars is spent. -Obama created the Illinois Earned Income Tax Credit for low-income working families in 2000 and successfully sponsored a measure to make the credit permanent in 2003. The law offered about $105 million in tax relief over three years. -Obama joined forces with former U.S. Sen. Paul Simon (D-IL) to pass the toughest campaign finance law in Illinois history. The legislation banned the personal use of campaign money by Illinois legislators and banned gifts from lobbyists. Before the law was passed, one organization ranked Illinois worst among 50 states for its campaign finance regulations. -As a member of the Veterans' Affairs Committee, Senator Obama has fought to help Illinois veterans get the disability pay they were promised, while working to prepare the VA for the return of the thousands of veterans who will need care after Iraq and Afghanistan. -He traveled to Russia with Republican Dick Lugar to begin a new generation of non-proliferation efforts designed to find and secure deadly weapons around the world. -Obama has been a leading advocate for protecting the right to vote, helping to reauthorize the Voting Rights Act and leading the opposition against discriminatory barriers to voting. - In the U.S. Senate, Obama introduced the STOP FRAUD Act to increase penalties for mortgage fraud and provide more protections for low-income homebuyers, well before the current subprime crisis began. -Obama sponsored legislation to combat predatory payday loans, and he also was credited with lobbied the state to more closely regulate some of the most egregious predatory lending practices. -Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military. -Obama worked to pass a number of laws in Illinois and Washington to improve the health of women. His accomplishments include creating a task force on cervical cancer, providing greater access to breast and cervical cancer screenings, and helping improve prenatal and premature birth services. -Obama has introduced and helped pass bipartisan legislation to limit the abuse of no-bid federal contracts. -Obama and Senator Feingold (D-WI) took on both parties and proposed ethics legislation that was described as the "gold standard" for reform. It was because of their leadership that ending subsidized corporate jet travel, mandating disclosure of lobbyists' bundling of contributions, and enacting strong new restrictions of lobbyist-sponsored trips became part of the final ethics bill that was signed into law. "

I wouldn't expect any obama haters to actually go through and read it all. Its much easier to just throw mud without knowing any facts. Even if they did I'm sure it wouldn't measure up to their standards.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:42 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2008 2:27:00 PM

Quote :

"that would depend on how we defined the percentage. Are we going to include only the mothers? Will we ignore the possible children of aborted children? Will we ignore the parents of the mother and father? Will we ignore the potential friends of the aborted children? "

you are going a little over the edge here, obviously.

what is the percentage of people, in america, who have made the decision to have an abortion. that would include the 'would-be' mother and father. I would think 5% is high but even that is a tiny fragment of the population. I refuse to vote for a candidate based on that one issue and I think it gets blown WAY out of porportion.

9/5/2008 2:27:25 PM

The N&O recently reported that 60% of North Carolina high schoolers are sexually active. NC is doing a very bad job convincing them to abstain from sex.

9/5/2008 2:28:45 PM

Quote :

"Because we are the United States and not a confederation of States."

why do you hate states' rights?

Quote :

"Furthermore, if you believe in Creationism and not evolution, you are too fucking stupid to be PResident and will cause me to question your other stances."

i dont disagree with this, but arent you supposed to be tolerant? i mean you have millions of idiots who are sold on evil global warming

9/5/2008 2:29:38 PM

state's rights has always been an argument to impede the rights of the people. Furthermore, education across this country should be the same.

State's rights is nothing more than pure bullshit pulled out in cases of gays, blacks, and religiosity.

Quote :

"i dont disagree with this, but arent you supposed to be tolerant? i mean you have millions of idiots who are sold on evil global warming"

there is scientific evidence for global warming. no, I'm not going to debate you on this.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:31 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:32 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2008 2:30:58 PM

OK fine, although you don't provide shit for facts to backup the basis in this awful thread..

Barack Obama

Juris Doctorate from Harvard University in 1991
Professor that taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago between 1992 and 2004
Harvard Law Review President
Illinois State Senator 1996-2004
United States Senator 2005-2008

He holds assignments on the:
Senate Committees for Foreign Relations
Health, Education, Labor and Pensions
Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
Veterans' Affairs
Member of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Obama has sponsored 131 bills since Jan 4, 2005 in the US Senate.

These included significant contributions from Obama in the following:
*the Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006 - became law
*The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act, - became law
*The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act, passed the Senate
*The 2007 Government Ethics Bill, - became law
*The Protection Against Excessive Executive Compensation Bill, In committee, and many more.

As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In August 2005, he traveled to Russia, Ukraine, and Azerbaijan. The trip focused on strategies to control the world's supply of conventional weapons, biological weapons, and weapons of mass destruction as a first defense against potential terrorist attacks.

Following meetings with U.S. military in Kuwait and Iraq in January 2006, Obama visited Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian territories.

He left for his third official trip in August 2006, traveling to South Africa, Kenya, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Chad. In a nationally televised speech at the University of Nairobi, he spoke forcefully on the influence of ethnic rivalries and corruption in Kenya.

9/5/2008 2:31:11 PM

^^^^ and I would argue that is way too limiting on who is actually affected by the abortion. Thus the whole point of the previous laundry list.

Quote :

"Because we are the United States and not a confederation of States. Furthermore, if you believe in Creationism and not evolution, you are too fucking stupid to be PResident and will cause me to question your other stances."

You do know we are a Republic, right? Oh, and haha for believing one religion over another, right? Good work.

Quote :

"One a sweeping ethics reform bill ..."

Which consists of a worthless database of about five or six tables. Whew, that's huge, man! Definitely a "sweeping ethics reform bill," right?

Quote :

"... and the other one a major non-proliferation bill."

Which consists of doing exactly what we are already doing. Man, that is a major bill, aint it? You do realize that the Savannah River Site, a place that does practically all of the weapons-dismantling in the US, has a management and operations contract of $4billion dollars, right? Billion. With a 'B'. $48million, with an 'm' is nothing.

Quote :

" state's rights has always been an argument to impede the rights of the people. Furthermore, education across this country should be the same. State's rights is nothing more than pure bullshit pulled out in cases of gays, blacks, and religiosity "

Too bad it's fucking written in the Constitution. Man, that sucks! Besides, the notion that the right that belongs to the fucking people impedes the "rights of the people" is entirely ridiculous, and you know it.

Quote :

"there is scientific evidence for global warming. no, I'm not going to debate you on this."

Actually, there isn't. And that's why you won't debate it.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ]

9/5/2008 2:32:29 PM

Quote :

"You do know we are a Republic, right? Oh, and haha for believing one religion over another, right? Good work."

Republic has nothing to do with a federation of states you dittering twit.

9/5/2008 2:33:31 PM

Quote :

"OK fine, although you don't provide shit for facts to backup the basis in this awful thread.. Barack Obama Juris Doctorate from Harvard University in 1991 [never authored a single paper of note] Professor that taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago between 1992 and 2004 [never authored a single paper of note] Harvard Law Review President Illinois State Senator 1996-2004 [a lot of "present" votes on important issues...] United States Senator 2005-2008 He holds assignments on the: Senate Committees for Foreign Relations [can't even show up for meetings] Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Veterans' Affairs Member of the Congressional Black Caucus. [woo! member of a racist organization. awesome can Byrd also claim membership in the KKK?] Obama has sponsored 131 bills since Jan 4, 2005 in the US Senate. [congrats on doing something that every one else does: sponsor a lot of fluff!] These included significant contributions from Obama in the following: *the Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006 - became law [already addressed] *The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act, - became law[already addressed] *The Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act, passed the Senate [and failed elsewhere] *The 2007 Government Ethics Bill, - became law *The Protection Against Excessive Executive Compensation Bill, In committee, and many more. As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In August 2005, he traveled to Russia, Ukraine, and Azerbaijan. The trip focused on strategies to control the world's supply of conventional weapons, biological weapons, and weapons of mass destruction as a first defense against potential terrorist attacks.[And what became of these trips? I seem to recall the most recent series of trips was little more than an election campaign] Following meetings with U.S. military in Kuwait and Iraq in January 2006, Obama visited Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian territories. [And what became of these trips?] He left for his third official trip in August 2006, traveling to South Africa, Kenya, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Chad. In a nationally televised speech at the University of Nairobi, he spoke forcefully on the influence of ethnic rivalries and corruption in Kenya. [And what became of this? Wow, he made a speech]"

Quote :

"Republic has nothing to do with a federation of states you dittering twit."

That's funny. Cause that is practically what it means.

9/5/2008 2:43:14 PM

Quote :

"ok..so what is the percentage...like 5%?"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22689931/ A decent number each year (though it is decreasing every year).


And according to this site http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Quote :

"• At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45[4], and, at current rates, about one-third will have had an abortion.[5,6] "

So you're looking at about 10-20% of american females who have had an abortion.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 2:49 PM. Reason : numbers]

9/5/2008 2:44:45 PM

haha

Look at you, you just dropped blind swaths at his accomplishments without any basis and without any real context. What is the point of even addressing your request...I have no idea why I bothered.

You're so biased you'd piss on superman's accomplishments if he was a democrat. Pointless exercise.

9/5/2008 2:47:38 PM

Quote :

"How dare anyone question the religion of science, right?"

Once again, since I've already said this once before - call me when you come up with a prayer-powered engine.

Until then, shut the fuck up already.

9/5/2008 2:48:15 PM

Why so testy? Am I questioning your religion too harshly? Besides, invention is not science, and science is not invention. sorry, mang

^^ Haha. "Blind swaths?" Care to support that assertion? Probably not. You've supported no other assertions since you've come in here

9/5/2008 2:49:27 PM

Name me one useful instrument of technology that came from faith. I can name scores that came from scientific principles. In fact, pretty much all of them.

Science is not the same as faith. That is, until you can come up with a prayer-powered engine and prove all us priests of science wrong. Until then, kindly refer back to the original post and shut the fuck up.

9/5/2008 3:01:27 PM

i think the feminist/lesbians dropped the ball on this one

9/5/2008 3:10:59 PM

Quote :

"That is, until you can come up with a prayer-powered engine and prove all us priests of science wrong."

Again, invention is NOT science. Such a thing has no bearing on the issue. So stop saying it. Otherwise, I'll say bring me a flower that doesn't have plant cells if you want to prove the earth is round.

Quote :

"Name me one useful instrument of technology that came from faith. I can name scores that came from scientific principles. In fact, pretty much all of them."

You do realize that much of our scientific progress is based on the work of Christian and Muslim monks and scholars, right? Or, is it possible that scientific advances came from faith in the power of the scientific method. Q.E.D.

9/5/2008 3:11:04 PM

Nobody gives a shit about her 5 kids. I myself don't trust any woman who wants to take away my rights of what to do with my body. If someone wants an abortion they are going to get one, do you want them to get it from a legit doctor or from some sketchy randomer with a coat hanger? And it's embarrassingly obvious here that anti-sex ed doesn't work.

She goes to a wacky evangelical church that speaks in tongues.

Her pastor said that criticizing Bush is a ticket to hell and that we are doing "God's work" in Iraq. Among other things he's a much bigger wackjob than Obama's pastor and I don't see anyone making a big deal about him.

Then her acceptance speech was filled with lies...http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin_part_ii.html

She's a sketchy, sketchy lady. And now she's back in Alaska so they can "train" her to campaign, oh yeah, she's so totally ready for this VP gig!! McCain isn't a senile old man, he knows whats up and he knows what we need to make a change in this country, even though he doesn't actually lay out any policies or things he plans to do and only makes vague references, but he's a maverick!

Republicans these days are just a bunch of ignorant fools, my dad was a staunch republican until he realized what a sham the Iraq war was and how the idiots in office now are the complete opposite from the fiscally conservative republicans he identified with. These people are just gun-toting, wacky religious zealots and want to take our country back to the stone age. WAKE UP PEOPLE.

9/5/2008 3:13:05 PM

Quote :

"That's funny. Cause that is practically what it means."

Republic has nothing to do with being broken up into states.

A republic is a state or country that is not led by a hereditary monarch,but in which the people (or at least a part of its people) have impact on its government. The word originates from the Latin term res publica, which literally translates as "public thing" or "public matter".

all of which has nothing to do with federalism.

Jesus you are retarded.

9/5/2008 3:20:06 PM

Quote :

"Again, invention is NOT science. Such a thing has no bearing on the issue. So stop saying it. Otherwise, I'll say bring me a flower that doesn't have plant cells if you want to prove the earth is round."

All invention relies on scientific principles, which if you'd have bothered to actually read my post, you'd have noticed I pointed that out. It's pretty hard to invent an engine if you don't understand the thermodynamics behind combustion cycles.

Ergo, science is a critical pre-requisite to invention. Scientific principles enable invention.

Find me a prayer-powered automobile. You'll make a fortune given gas prices alone.

Quote :

"You do realize that much of our scientific progress is based on the work of Christian and Muslim monks and scholars, right? Or, is it possible that scientific advances came from faith in the power of the scientific method. Q.E.D."

Part of me wonders if you really are this dense, or are simply being obnoxious for the sake of, well, being contrarian. Because your argument actually goes back to my point - the monks and scholars working in those days were typically the only literate folks around, and worked through a pretty steady scientific process when doing their natural philosophy work. So, unless you want to argue that somehow some our greatest scholars of the Middle Ages were flagrantly idolaters acting in violation of the First Commandment (which, as a reminder, is, "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before Me"), one might be inclined to think that science is an empirical process and religion is something based upon faith alone.

Which, as wiser people in both professions have pointed out for several centuries, would seem to indicate they describe separate things, and work best when they aren't trying to nose in on each others' turf.

In other words - have your faith. Celebrate it. But stop trying to haughtily act like science is the equivalent of religion. Until, at least, you bring us that prayer-powered engine. (Or, at least a faith-based version of thermodynamics. I'll settle for that. Does it have to do with the number of angels that can dance upon the head of a pin?)

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 3:33 PM. Reason : .]

9/5/2008 3:20:36 PM

Quote :

"Nobody gives a shit about her 5 kids. I myself don't trust any woman who wants to take away my rights of what to do with my body[but I am happy to deny her that right for political convenience]. If someone wants an abortion they are going to get one, do you want them to get it from a legit doctor or from some sketchy randomer with a coat hanger? And it's embarrassingly obvious here that anti-sex ed doesn't work [especially if we only look at one aspect of its purpose, right]. She goes to a wacky evangelical church that speaks in tongues. [fuck her beliefs! mine are right!] Her pastor said that criticizing Bush is a ticket to hell and that we are doing "God's work" in Iraq. Among other things he's a much bigger wackjob than Obama's pastor and I don't see anyone making a big deal about him. [So that means can ignore Obama's wackjob pastor!!!] Then her acceptance speech was filled with lies...http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin_part_ii.html She's a sketchy, sketchy lady. And now she's back in Alaska so they can "train" her to campaign [i'm really supporting this one!], oh yeah, she's so totally ready for this VP gig!! McCain isn't a senile old man [age discrimination, w00t], he knows whats up and he knows what we need to make a change in this country, even though he doesn't actually lay out any policies or things he plans to do and only makes vague references [you know, like HOPE, CHANGE, and BELIEVE], but he's a maverick! Republicans these days are just a bunch of ignorant fools, my dad was a staunch republican until he realized what a sham the Iraq war was and how the idiots in office now are the complete opposite from the fiscally conservative republicans he identified with [cause those democrats are much closer!]. These people are just gun-toting, wacky religious zealots and want to take our country back to the stone age [speaks for itself]. WAKE UP PEOPLE."

Quote :

"Republic has nothing to do with being broken up into states. "

and yet, that we are.

Quote :

"All invention relies on scientific principles"

Not so much. I can invent something through simply throwing shit together randomly. Doesn't mean it works or is useful, of course. You might say that all meaningful invention relies on scientific principles. Which requires a faith and belief that those scientific principles are worthwhile in the first place, right?

Quote :

"Find me a prayer-powered automobile."

Find me a flower without any plant cells in it. Please, though, keep repeating the same tired argument that I have refuted twice now.

Quote :

"Because your argument actually goes back to my point"

Does it? Religion, faith, the institution, taught those monks to read. How can you argue that religion did NOT influence the eventual scientific principles that would arise, then? You asked me for evidence that faith led to scientific discoveries. I gave it to you.

Quote :

"So, unless you want to argue that somehow some our greatest scholars of the Middle Ages were flagrantly idolaters acting in violation of the First Commandment (which, as a reminder, is, "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before Me")"

1) A religion need not have a god.
2) Science might not have come before God to those men...

9/5/2008 3:37:39 PM

I don't feel like reading all the replies. Toward the original post though; I could really give to shits about her being a woman or if she wants to have 10 more down syndrome babies. What I care about is her politics and enforcing her morality on me. She can leave her backward creationist theories and anti-contraception rhetoric in AK. If they love her good for alaskans; but she is the last thing we need for this country.
Since I am not on the "left" though i guess your statement really doesn't apply to me in the first place.

The reaction of populace is like that of Bush when he ran. People either loved him or hated him. Throughout his term he has had one of the most bi-polar attitudes by the american people. McCain was successful because he seemed to bridge a gap that was created during the Bush Admin. Did we really want someone like Palin to reinforce this gap that has existed throughout the Bush years.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 3:51 PM. Reason : a]

9/5/2008 3:49:20 PM

Quote :

"Not so much. I can invent something through simply throwing shit together randomly. Doesn't mean it works or is useful, of course. You might say that all meaningful invention relies on scientific principles. Which requires a faith and belief that those scientific principles are worthwhile in the first place, right?"

You really want to split hairs on this point, when I think the point that useful invention was fairly implicitly obvious? Really? Well, fine. Useful invention. Doesn't affect the outcome of my argument in the least.

Meanwhile, uh, no - faith in scientific principles is not exactly required, because if I am the least bit skeptical, I can go out and just observe. I can think up my own experiments. I don't have to take other peoples' word for it.

That being said, a process is not a religion. Unless brushing my teeth is now also a religion. (It's even got its own devil - the Cavity Creeps!)

Quote :

"Find me a flower without any plant cells in it. Please, though, keep repeating the same tired argument that I have refuted twice now."

I know you think you've come up with just the most clever rebuttal in the world, but just repeating a non-sequitur doesn't actually invalidate the argument. No matter how many times you repeat it.

Quote :

"Does it? Religion, faith, the institution, taught those monks to read. How can you argue that religion did NOT influence the eventual scientific principles that would arise, then? You asked me for evidence that faith led to scientific discoveries. I gave it to you."

Is this really your argument? That the ancillary product of religious study - literacy - just so happened to enable monks to perform useful scientific investigation? You're really making this argument? The fact that religion is not a necessary component of literacy - but was simply a social phenomena that encouraged literacy among the scholarly classes - means that somehow religion was/is an integral part of science? Really?

Do I really need to break down why this argument is flawed? You know, in that I learn a skill to perform one task (Goal A), and then find I can apply that same skill to perform another (Goal B), does not mean Goal A is responsible for Goal B. It's simply a happy coincidence.

Quote :

"1) A religion need not have a god. 2) Science might not have come before God to those men..."

Pretty sure most religions frown upon the idea of someone holding even to "lesser gods" or "weekday religions." Like, for instance, worshiping Zeus so long as my butt's in church on Sunday. Pretty sure that one's out.

It probably just makes more sense to say that science is a useful process of investigation of the natural world, whereas religion is an ethical/metaphysical system based upon faith of explaining the supernatural.

9/5/2008 3:50:15 PM

Quote :

"Doesn't affect the outcome of my argument in the least."

Actually, it does. Especially when you read the last sentence of what you quoted. The notion that even useful invention depends upon the faith in worth of the scientific method. Again, Q.E.D.

Quote :

"The fact that religion is not a necessary component of literacy - but was simply a social phenomena that encouraged literacy among the scholarly classes - means that somehow religion was/is an integral part of science? Really?"

Not at all what I said. And not at all what you asked of me in the first place.

Quote :

"Pretty sure most religions frown upon the idea of someone holding even to "lesser gods" or "weekday religions.""

Pretty sure, however, that the 1st Commandment as quotes does not address that, though.

9/5/2008 4:03:12 PM

Quote :

"She goes to a wacky evangelical church that speaks in tongues. "

if you are an obama supporter, talking about wacky churches probably isnt the best road to take.

Quote :

"So you're looking at about 10-20% of american females who have had an abortion. "

admittingly, thats a lot more than I thought. however, I still will not base who I pick as President on this issue.

9/5/2008 6:57:11 PM

^Wright was far more grounded in reality. Lest you forget Tuskegee?

9/5/2008 6:59:07 PM

you're defending Wright...thats pretty much waving the white flag and admitting defeat

9/5/2008 7:00:14 PM

Quote :

"I mean, I dont agree with these traditional conservative points, however they are just tiny issues in our world. I dont get the obsession over these things. I refuse to pick my government over them. No one will EVER know how life was created, teens are always going to fuck, get STD's and make babies (so teach them what they need to know at home - dont rely on schools to do everything) and abortion affects a very small, small portion of our population. Focus on some real shit."

you mean like war, the horrible economy, our standing among the rest of the world, and all that kind of stuff?

9/5/2008 8:12:26 PM

no, my comment was based on

Quote :

"From what I understand she is: pro-creationism in schools. pro-abstinence only sex ed in schools. the book banning issue is a big concern. she is pro-life. "

which were that person's reasons for not liking her.

however,

1. I agree with fighting terror, iraq is a cluster but it is what it is and we have to fix it.
2. I dont believe that the economy has much to do with the President, however, given the double punch of a mortgage boondoggle and unbelievable gas prices our economy should be in A LOT worse shape than it currently is...we arent even 'technically' in a recession - plus the law makers are a democratic majority. who gets the fault or the credit there?
3. I care about America first, everyone else second. I dont really care what the rest of the world thinks of us because it changes as the wind blows. It isnt relevant to me.

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 8:49 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 8:50 PM. Reason : ..sonofbitch]

9/5/2008 8:47:59 PM

Hey Guys I just wanted to let you know that drugs are bad, ummmm k. Do not do them or you are an evil sinner and will go to federal pound me in the butt prison because after all you are not being a good Christian. Abortion is the work of the devil. Even though it was a painful experience; it was god's will for bubba the thug to rape and impregnate you. You must learn to accept this and take your baby as a miracle from the heavens because you should not abort the baby. Further I want all high school kids to listen up; Sex is bad and you will go hell if you indulge before marriage. We must solely advocate abstinence only education because surely it is the best method to cut down on STDs and teen pregnancy. MTV is corrupting our children but if we pray to god and trust abstinence education perhaps we can change human sexual behavior. Speaking of humans any good Christian knows evolution is propaganda spread by the godless liberal agenda. We must stop this blasphemy at all costs and ensure students in schools receive the right education of creationism as mentioned in teh good book. We must realize that some people will get upset from other religions about teaching creationism. Do not forget though these people are all going to hell for not letting jesus into their hearts! Lastly we must speak about big spending. Liberals since gaining the majority in congress in 2006 are solely responsible for the multi-trillion dollar deficit. Having taken control they RUINED 6 hard years of fiscal responsibility by President Bush! Thank you for your time

Love and Kisses,

Sarah Palin xoxoxo
VP Candidate
United Christian States of America





[Edited on September 5, 2008 at 9:08 PM. Reason : ll]

9/5/2008 9:05:14 PM

Quote :

"Actually, it does. Especially when you read the last sentence of what you quoted. The notion that even useful invention depends upon the faith in worth of the scientific method. Again, Q.E.D."

Uh, no, it doesn't. And saying, "QED!", (especially when I doubt you even know what that means without looking it up on Wikipedia), doesn't make it so. Understanding scientific principles doesn't require an ounce of faith - because you can go out and test them.

Faith doesn't work that way. Ergo, science != faith. End of story.

Quote :

"Not at all what I said. And not at all what you asked of me in the and in first place."

No, you're simply trying to assert that because of a scholarly order dedicated to religion who happened to investigate natural phenomena, that somehow faith is the system responsible for technological development.

Incidentally, all of those same monks ate food and breathed oxygen, which enabled them to both practice their theological and scientific work. Food and oxygen are responsible for scientific development! Why bother even debating whether religion or science has spurred technological development when it's clearly so much simpler!

Yes, it's brilliant. Let's just ignore the fact that both things are ancillary to the scientific process itself. Which is the root form of you argument.

Quote :

"Pretty sure, however, that the 1st Commandment as quotes does not address that, though."

Fairly sure that's what it was precisely about. Especially if you look at, oh, I don't know, the context. Or the definition of "idolatry." Or just don't feel like making arguments on speciousness alone.

Keep going, this is entertaining.

9/5/2008 9:19:59 PM

Quote :

"Understanding scientific principles doesn't require an ounce of faith - because you can go out and test them. "

You have the faith that you can go out and test them. You have the faith that your methods for testing them are correct.

Quote :

"No, you're simply trying to assert that because of a scholarly order dedicated to religion who happened to investigate natural phenomena, that somehow faith is the system responsible for technological development."

Actually, I attacked your comment on 2 angles. One from the angle of "what religion has contributed to scientific advances." Religion being an analog for "faith." And then I attacked it an another level, namely on the very definition of faith.

Quote :

"Fairly sure that's what it was precisely about. Especially if you look at, oh, I don't know, the context. Or the definition of "idolatry.""

Only one problem with that, buddy. Idolatry is mentioned in another commandment. Sorry. you lose. again.

9/5/2008 9:32:42 PM

It don't matter haters!!

Give it up!!!

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/05/mccain-tops-obama-in-speeches-tv-ratings/

9/5/2008 9:35:03 PM

Quote :

"You have the faith that you can go out and test them. You have the faith that your methods for testing them are correct."

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You can make a prediction and test it. It doesn't require "faith" - it requires making testable, repeatable predictions of phenomena based upon experiment.

Quote :

"Actually, I attacked your comment on 2 angles. One from the angle of "what religion has contributed to scientific advances." Religion being an analog for "faith." And then I attacked it an another level, namely on the very definition of faith."

I know distorting the question and selectively reading are great fun for you, as is evinced above and in this post, but really. The fact is, religion is something of faith which fails spectacularly when it attempts to make testable predictions about the natural world. It describes the supernatural.

Science, on the other hand, is a process which describes the natural world through empirical means - testable hypotheses which make useful predictions about natural phenomena. By definition, supernatural phenomena don't apply here - ergo, science is not faith. Once again - they describe two different things.

And people much smarter than you or I who happened to study theology for a living have stated this same thing very eloquently several hundred years ago. See, for instance, Aquinas, Thomas and Magus, Albertus.

Quote :

"Only one problem with that, buddy. Idolatry is mentioned in another commandment. Sorry. you lose. again."

Uh, not in the Catholic and Lutheran texts. To wit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Division_of_the_Commandments

A little quick on the draw there, aren't we speedy? Especially when we don't know what we're talking about.

9/5/2008 9:51:30 PM

Quote :

"Wrong, wrong, and wrong. You can make a prediction and test it. It doesn't require "faith" - it requires making testable, repeatable predictions of phenomena based upon experiment. "

Nope. It requires faith that the observation is truth.

Quote :

"The fact is, religion is something of faith which fails spectacularly when it attempts to make testable predictions about the natural world. It describes the supernatural."

And therein lies the problem. A religion need not describe the supernatural.

Quote :

"Uh, not in the Catholic and Lutheran texts. To wit:"

Ehe, everyone knows those people are going to hell anyway Doesn't change the fact that you only quoted the portion that neglects to mention idolatry. you still fail.

9/5/2008 9:54:21 PM

wat r u guyz talkin about

9/5/2008 9:56:02 PM

lawl, something totally different than the original post. crazy, aint it.

9/5/2008 9:58:51 PM