2

9/12/2008 2:38:17 PM

Quote :

"the single greatest leader of our time, the President of the future, the one, Obama."

I really hope you're being sarcastic/trolling

9/12/2008 4:38:51 PM

^if that guy's not drunk/high, I'm quite shocked.

Quote :

"Also Palin said Russia was "unprovoked" in Georgia - even the Georgian government admitted that they took military actions in S. Osettia immediately before the Russian military incursion"

I'm confused. Isn't S. Osettia IN Georgia? If so, how's that provoking Russia?

9/13/2008 1:30:41 AM

^It was a disputed territory that Russia wants to annex. Around the time of the conflict, it was declaring its independence while there were some pushing from both Russia and groups within S. Ossetia for the nation to become a part of Russia. It was considered a part of Georgia up until that declaration of independence though.

Yes, I Wiki'd that, but it answers the question.

9/13/2008 2:16:01 AM

kinda like how Baghdad was a disputed US territory.

git-er-dun governor Palin; show the ruskies how bad ass of a lip stick smearing pitbull armchair general you are.

9/13/2008 12:54:48 PM

Quote :

"who happened to support Reagan in congress as he single handily took down the soviet union without firing a single shot."

IIRC, there were a few shots fired down in Latin American as part of the Reagan administration's effort to take down the Soviet Union.


Out of curiosity, how many other countries' potential leaders have suggested an invasion on U.S. soil for us having invaded Iraq or having been involved in other military conflicts throughout the world?

9/13/2008 3:10:26 PM

^ How many countries have we invaded that have been part of or are applying to be a part of a multinational mutal-defense organization and would have the military power to actually effectively attack the US?

9/13/2008 5:30:47 PM

Russia is retarded. They gained nothing from the strike in Georgia. Their stock market fell through the floor and they're once again sending their country deeper into a depression.

Georgia was even more retarded for trying to send an army into the disputed area.

While russia is one of the few countries left that freaks me out for its random behavior it's still a far cry to be asking questions like he did to palin. She answered dead on as well. If the allies of the US are threatened, it's the job of its allies and others to step in and help out. Ultimately she got to the point of the presidents job that is to protect the union, not just our friends.

We are still putting together a multibillion dollar project out in space and working together on many projects around the globe. Let's not count our ally russia totally dead yet ABC news.

9/13/2008 6:01:58 PM

I do not care if Georgia and the US were butt buddies. My financial and personal safety are not worth trying to world police to protect some little shit hole country near the Dead Sea from being invaded by Russia.

If Russia was steam-rolling down europe or acting aggressive toward Japan than my attitude would be different

9/13/2008 6:32:40 PM

I am astounded by some of the illogical posts in this thread.

1. Palin responded correctly in the context of the question. It clearly was meant to try and trip her up but what she said was basically we would honor our alliance. WORD IS BOND SON.

2. Russia wont invade a NATO country because they know ^.

3. Some of you who call yourselves liberal or democrats should look again. Many of you are openly questioning helping people of other nationalities. Isnt the backbone of the democratic platform equality and the aid of all people, especially the poor and destitute? Does skin color or nationality matter? Ask your boy B.O.

4. Both McCain and Palin have children in combat zones. They have every reason on those facts alone to steer us away from unnecessary military engagements.

9/13/2008 7:17:26 PM

^best post of the weekend.

9/13/2008 7:19:08 PM

Quote :

"Some of you who call yourselves liberal or democrats should look again. Many of you are openly questioning helping people of other nationalities. Isnt the backbone of the democratic platform equality and the aid of all people, especially the poor and destitute"

i'm neither liberal or a democrat. Nor do i particularly give a shit about equality or aid to those poor and destitute. Especially if it does not effect me.

9/13/2008 9:20:18 PM

Quote :

"I do not care if Georgia and the US were butt buddies. My financial and personal safety are not worth trying to world police to protect some little shit hole country near the Dead Sea from being invaded by Russia. "

Which is precisely why our founding fathers warned us against getting involved in entangling alliances.

9/13/2008 11:03:54 PM

Quote :

"Which is precisely why our founding fathers warned us against getting involved in entangling alliances."

that is exactly right....but they lived in a time were news and goods took months to cross the Atlantic. isolationism as a foreign policy died a quick death with WWI.

9/13/2008 11:39:48 PM

Quote :

" Both McCain and Palin have children in combat zones. They have every reason on those facts alone to steer us away from unnecessary military engagements."

You would think so, but politics sometimes eclipses family.

Cheney has a daughter that's a lesbian, but you don't see him fighting Bush's or the Republican's anti-gay agenda too fervently.

9/13/2008 11:42:20 PM

so you are going to compare a parent not approving of homosexuality to the potential of violent death? please.

9/13/2008 11:48:25 PM

well, homosexuality does make you burn in hell, so...

9/13/2008 11:49:58 PM

Quote :

"Quote : " Both McCain and Palin have children in combat zones. They have every reason on those facts alone to steer us away from unnecessary military engagements." You would think so, but politics sometimes eclipses family."

yeah, and also religious fervor takes eclipses everything, including family, country, and common sense

9/13/2008 11:51:58 PM

Quote :

"that is exactly right....but they lived in a time were news and goods took months to cross the Atlantic. isolationism as a foreign policy died a quick death with WWI."

And yet, through WWI and WWII, and the Cold War, Switzerland has maintained nearly uninterrupted peace for 500 years. 500 years. Let that sink in and think about what kind of accomplishment that is. Now, it is obvious to any objective observer that we should ask a question: how did they do it and is it worth emulating?

Now, if Switzerland, right in the fucking middle of war-torn Europe for the deadliest century of combat ever, had only a few small scares over that entire time, I would say your observation on isolationism is just plain wrong. Switzerland's peace should show everyone that non-interventionism really does work -and it works brilliantly.

I assume you have merely confused your terms, and did not mean isolationism - North Korea is isolationist (severe economic protectionism and military non-interventionism), while countries like Switzerland are merely non-interventionist.

WWI is a shining example of exactly why we need to be non-interventionist....not an example against it.

[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 12:03 AM. Reason : a]

9/14/2008 12:01:46 AM

to be fair, Switzerland had Europe by the balls financially during the times you mention, so it's not an entirely fair comparison...

9/14/2008 12:04:45 AM

Having someone by the balls financially is worthless in the face of someone with more guns, tanks, and planes than you do.

He who has the gold doesn't make the rules - the guy with the guns does. And yet, Hitler, though he hated the Swiss with a passion and desperately wanted to take over them, did not seriously try and invade. That is because invasion and occupation of a populace where every man is armed and willing to fight is impossible, and Hitler knew it. He did not take on that suicide mission for the same reason that Hirohito advised against invading mainland America - "there would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Non-interventionism does not mean weakness.

[Edited on September 14, 2008 at 12:18 AM. Reason : a]

9/14/2008 12:17:30 AM

9/14/2008 1:28:39 AM

man, gotta love those issues

9/14/2008 1:30:07 AM

Haha, what are you talking about. The McCain camp is steering as far from issues as possible.

9/14/2008 11:30:06 AM

FYI, I was being facetious. I too agree that Palin answered the question correctly, but I don't believe that she is ready to lead if McCain dies. She is clearly a weaker "backup president" compared to Biden. That is all.

9/15/2008 11:02:23 AM

Looks like ABC did a pretty hack job and showing Palin's positions to be more "extreme" than they really were....

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/09/13/abc-news-edited-out-key-parts-sarah-palin-interview

9/15/2008 10:48:16 PM

Quote :

"Switzerland has maintained nearly uninterrupted peace for 500 years. 500 years. Let that sink in and think about what kind of accomplishment that is. "

You have no clue what you are talking about. Learn some history before spouting off a bunch of pure fantastical bullshit.

9/15/2008 10:58:42 PM

other than the failed attempt by Hitler to invade, they have had peace. Why don't you do some research.

9/15/2008 11:06:58 PM

HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED FROM ROGUE SWISS ARMY KNIFE ATTACKS OVER THE YEARS??? HUH? YOU CALL THAT PEACE???

9/15/2008 11:09:32 PM

Quote :

"other than the failed attempt by Hitler to invade, they have had peace. Why don't you do some research. "

Yeah, cept you know I have. Let's see 500 years of peace eh? Let's just wiki Switzerland, not in depth at all just a very brisk history of the country.

Quote :

"The success of Zwingli's Reformation in some cantons led to inter-cantonal wars in 1529 and 1531 (Kappeler Kriege). It wasn't until more than one hundred years after these internal wars that, in 1648, under the Treaty of Westphalia, European countries recognised Switzerland's independence"

2008-1648 = 500? No, but still that was a while ago right? okay..

Quote :

" The Swiss peasant war of 1653 was a popular revolt in the Old Swiss Confederacy at the time of the Ancien Régime. A devaluation of Bernese money caused a tax revolt that spread from the Entlebuch valley in the Canton of Lucerne to the Emmental valley in the Canton of Berne and then to the cantons of Solothurn and Basel and also to the Aargau. "

A Civil war, shit.. not exactly peace...

Quote :

" In 1798 the armies of the French Revolution conquered Switzerland and imposed a new unified constitution. "

Shit, is that 500 years ago? I dunno math very well.

Quote :

" After a period of unrest with repeated violent clashes such as the Züriputsch of 1839, civil war broke out between some of the Catholic and most of the other cantons in 1847 (the Sonderbundskrieg) "

Damn it, there those peaceful Swiss go again... This war almost lead to another war between France and Great Britain btw, which would have been a "World War."

So, sorry if I call bullshit when someone spews out a bunch of bullshit.

9/15/2008 11:24:43 PM

Quote :

"Looks like ABC did a pretty hack job and showing Palin's positions to be more "extreme" than they really were...."

that's pretty freaking bad. fairness doctrine FTW.

and you people wonder why Palin wanted to avoid the media. Cause of shit. like. this.

9/15/2008 11:54:50 PM

Ytsejam - I said "nearly uninterrupted" peace for that period of time.

So, all your citations amount to one single conflict in more than 350 years that was not internal (i.e. civil war or rebellion), and those are the types of conflicts in view here. And it is up to almost 500 years of peace in that area, as even back to the early-1500's, those conflicts were still internal, just not as part of a unified nation recognized as Switzerland. But, the point is, the culture there was still the same then as it has been up until recently - stay out of other people's business.

If you think that is anything other than exceptional, then you need to get some perspective.

The Swiss live in a much more vulnerable area, and around much more capricious neighbors than we have. They've had the front-seat view of hundreds of years of nearly uninterrupted war and conflict, yet have retained peace for themselves with respect to other countries. As you readily admit, since the early 1500's, they have had one conflict with an external enemy. That is MORE than sufficient to make my point that non-interventionism has been tested in a tougher neighborhood than we live in, and WORKS.

9/16/2008 8:56:55 AM

Quote :

"yeah, and also religious fervor takes eclipses everything, including family, country, and common sense"

Where have you seen McCain showing "religious fervor?"

Quote :

"And yet, through WWI and WWII, and the Cold War, Switzerland has maintained nearly uninterrupted peace for 500 years. 500 years. Let that sink in and think about what kind of accomplishment that is. Now, it is obvious to any objective observer that we should ask a question: how did they do it and is it worth emulating?"

The Swiss accomplished it by living in a country that is almost entirely mountainous, has no important natural resources, and possesses one of the greatest citizen-armies in the world. In WWII, they also avoided trouble with Germany by agreeing to be their financial lap dog. Where did all that Jew gold end up, again?

So, if you're asking whether or not I think kissing Nazi ass is worth emulating, then no, I do not.

---

All of this is pretty much beside the point. The only way to logically be opposed to what Palin said is to be opposed to our membership with NATO, which is fine. But go ahead and say that. You shouldn't find it objectionable that a VP candidate wants to uphold treaty obligations that have been in effect for most of a century.

9/16/2008 1:20:30 PM

the other logical way to oppose the Palin answer is to not rush the membership of georgia or the ukraine, which she suggested in her answer.

9/16/2008 1:35:34 PM

I just went through the complete interview twice and didn't notice anything about rushing membership of anybody. She said that she thought Ukraine ought to be a member. That's about it.

9/16/2008 1:55:47 PM

Along with Georgia, which violates the process of getting membership. Not even John McCain at this point in time is saying either Georgia or the Ukraine should be members of NATO, rather they should be begining the process, which will take at least a decade to accomplish. Sarah Palin doesn't seem to understand that when she was asked if they should be members of NATO.

9/16/2008 2:03:04 PM

I didn't read anything about her saying, "They should be members RIGHT FUCKING NOW." She expressed a desire that they should become members; it seems reasonable to me to assume that she expects them to go through the normal process.

9/16/2008 3:02:54 PM

Quote :

""Ukraine, definitely, yes. Yes, and Georgia." "

Statements that even John McCain won't even make because John McCain, at least I hope he does realizes that right now Ukraine and Georgia aren't ready for membership and might never be ready for membership. they didn't even make it through the MAP process, which I support them being a member of, but they didn't make it so it is a moot point; and for her to say that they should have membership, even though that means the possibility of war is extremely disturbing.

9/16/2008 3:15:33 PM

Quote :

"So, all your citations amount to one single conflict in more than 350 years that was not internal (i.e. civil war or rebellion), and those are the types of conflicts in view here. And it is up to almost 500 years of peace in that area, as even back to the early-1500's, those conflicts were still internal, just not as part of a unified nation recognized as Switzerland. But, the point is, the culture there was still the same then as it has been up until recently - stay out of other people's business. If you think that is anything other than exceptional, then you need to get some perspective."

You missed the point. The Swiss up until about 150 years ago, were not peaceful at all, nor extraordinary. As said above, what is now Switzerland is a geographically small, resource poor, low population area. They hadn't the power for foreign wars. But war between members of the confederation were not uncommon at all. There were many more engagements between cantons than those listed, but they were small of course.

Why? Because Switzerland is small, with a small population, so logically their wars were small.

Remember Switzerland was a confederation of mountainous cantons. So of course the Swiss confederation didn't get involved in foreign wars since it was a mainly defensive organization.

9/16/2008 7:23:18 PM

Quote :

"Because maybe don't like seeing our friend invaded by our enemies? Maybe we, you know, should help a free people no matter their nationality. "

maybe we should realize we can't fight all the battles and intervene when it is up to other side to settle the dispuse, that and maybe think of the consequences of world war 3

9/20/2008 2:42:27 PM