2



I'm not going to scorn him for being ambitious but there's a time, especially now, that our leadership needs to be as realistic as possible. If we weren't on the path torward sealing our goals in Iraq and also weren't encumbered by our afghanistan operation, things under his platform would be great. But I dont see him actually achieving much if he becomes president. He's too extravegant and his military policy is leaning towards bush's idiotic 'say everything out loud in the open' rhetoric. He's just the wrong choice, take it or leave it

[Edited on October 8, 2008 at 8:24 PM. Reason : .]

10/8/2008 8:24:41 PM

10/8/2008 8:33:44 PM

[Edited on October 8, 2008 at 8:35 PM. Reason : lol]

10/8/2008 8:34:57 PM

I think people are finally getting the message that the GOP is bad for the economy.

10/8/2008 8:38:48 PM

10/8/2008 8:43:32 PM

^^^^Lafn.org? yeah, i'm definitely laughin at your source

i like how gerald ford has one of the biggest up sloping arrows on the graph despite his miniscule figures and the inconvenient fact that the debt goes down during the 2 years it shows for Ford...what a shitty source

$88 million to $74 million = huge upwards sloping arrow...gimme a fucking break

[Edited on October 8, 2008 at 11:29 PM. Reason : .]

10/8/2008 11:26:37 PM

(waited too long to edit)

but overall yes, the last few republican presidents have had the debt increase over their terms (not just % of gdp) and the last couple democrats have reduced the debt

HOWEVER

i'd be much more interested, as would middle class america, to see what the middle class was paying during that time...bush lowered taxes and increased the debt...aka, for middle america, aka MAIN STREET, we didnt suffer...clinton reduced the debt by taxing...taxing is cool and all, except it takes money out of the middle class's pocket

we need to get the debt under control and maybe a democratic president would be better for that, but the timeless debt graph isnt a great indicator of how mainstream america is living

10/8/2008 11:59:04 PM

^ apparently you're too young to remember Clinton years, at least in any meaningful way, but those were economically one of the best periods in terms of real income of americans since Eisenhower that DIDNT involve extreme deficit spending.

10/9/2008 12:33:14 AM

i definitely remember the clinton years, although i only worked and paid taxes in 2 of them...my point is still that the average "joe sixpack" can do alright with less taxes regardless of the govt's debts

10/9/2008 12:38:43 AM

okay fine,

vote Obama.

he'll lower taxes for all you "joe sixpacks"

10/9/2008 12:43:16 AM

he will lower my personal taxes joesixpack_schmoe, however under obama my company would have to cut my pay in order to deal with obama's corporate tax increases...its real simple

10/9/2008 12:50:02 AM

oh i see. so you think the taxpayers should subsidize your company. okay. socialist.

anyhow what do you care, really? i mean you work for some jackleg group doing phone support for blackberries. i would HOPE you have some ambition to improve your earning potential.

and if you want to work for some place that's actually going to CUT your pay.... well, you aint real smart, is ya?







[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 12:57 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2008 12:56:01 AM

1st line is a complete strawman...i'm simply explaining what obama's tax increases on small business (where the majority of americans work) will get hit by obama's tax cuts on the "rich"...shows how completely out of touch you are with his policies and the majority of Americans

2nd line is trolling, misconstruing my job, which fwiw, i'm one of 6 remaining employees at a company that had 19 employees 1 year ago because I can do more than just IT...but like i said you're just talking shit

3rd line you just talk more shit and prove you have no idea about who obama's tax increases will REALLY affect...not surprising though, sadly

10/9/2008 1:04:37 AM

oh, okay.

tell me about your "Trickle-Down Economics"

sounds like a winner.

10/9/2008 1:05:49 AM

trickle down? i'm simply pointing out how obama's tax increases on the "rich" (aka small businesses that make more than $250k which employee millions of americans) won't simply punish just the ultra wealthy like you socialists want, but will actually punish the majority of the american workforce by taxing small businesses...nobody is a winner in that policy

10/9/2008 1:11:03 AM

Quote :

"however under obama my company would have to cut my pay in order to deal with obama's corporate tax increases."

Only if your company isn't showing a profit. AFAIK, corporate taxes only tax profit, after wages and such have been deducted. Plus, he is proposing a tax credit to reduce the cost of healthcare for businesses.

Plus, he will "cut corporate taxes for firms that invest and create jobs in the United States."

So its not as simple as saying that he will increase taxes on corporations.

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 1:19 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2008 1:13:56 AM

only if my company ISN'T showing profit? the tax increases are for companies (and individuals) earning more than $250k income period, thats why they're so unrealistic...he's not just trying to play robin hood on rich individuals, he's fucking with the majority of american businesses...thats the type of thing that resonates home with me

Quote :

"he will "cut corporate taxes for firms that invest and create jobs in the United States." "

i'm not disagreeing with that right out but i would like to see some details because i have a feeling its not quite that simple

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 1:21 AM. Reason : .]

10/9/2008 1:20:25 AM

Quote :

"Barack Obama will repeal tax breaks and loopholes that reward corporations that retain their earnings overseas, and will use those savings to lower corporate tax rates for companies that expand or start operations in the United States."

That's what his site says about it, but admittedly that is a little nebulous.

10/9/2008 1:36:27 AM

Quote :

"First, some definitions so we all know what I’m talking about. So far as I can tell, the only small businesses that pay taxes at the personal income rate are “sole proprietorships”, the simplest type of business in the U.S. According to NOLO.com, a sole proprietorship may have employees, but the census indicates that the bulk of sole propreitorships do not - they’re considered nonemployers, and they are the largest portion of all U.S. businesses. In 2005 (the last year for which there is both data on nonemployers and employers at the U.S. Census Bureau), there were 20,392,068 nonemployers with a total income of $951 billion (Source: Nonemployer Statistics, 2005, Total for all sectors, United States). Small business employers1 numbered 5,878,784 (Source: Statistics of U.S. Businesses, All Industries, 2005). The total number of all employer and nonemployer businesses in 2005 was 26,375,614, of which 26,270,852 (or 99.6%) would qualify as small businesses as I’ve defined it above. This would be why people respond when you threaten to increase taxes on small businesses - there’s a LOT of small businesses. But look closer at those numbers. The average income per nonemployer small business is the total income divided by the number of employers, which in this case is only $46,635. What that means is that the vast majority of nonemployer small businesses (which we can probably fairly say are mostly sole proprietorships) would be unaffected by the Obama tax cut. In fact, since they make so little, they’d get a tax cut, not a tax increase. ... Put bluntly, even if we assume the worst case cost of 66,000 jobs and that every business with fewer than 10 employees is a sole proprietorship (and it’s not), the Obama tax plan is still creating 277,000 new jobs every year. "

- http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/10/03/obama-tax-plan/

It's a "blog" site, but the reasoning makes sense to me, and kind of corroborates what Obama said.

It doesn't seem likely that the tax increase is remotely as bad as McCain is making it out to be.

The only thing the site doesn't explain is the tax rate difference between sole proprietorships and true small businesses.

10/9/2008 1:56:14 AM

well my company is not a sole proprietorship and i appreciate the info but i'd still like to actually see obama's plan...maybe its not as bad as i thought but who knows

10/9/2008 1:57:47 AM

Quote :

" Mayor Richard M. Daley — who would receive Mr. Obama’s endorsement in 2007 shortly after several of his top aides and appointees had received prison sentences for their corrupt operation of Chicago’s city government — was invested in the Stroger machine’s survival. So was every alderman and county commissioner who uses the county payroll to support political hangers-on. So was Mr. Obama’s friend and donor, Tony Rezko, who is now in federal prison awaiting sentencing after being convicted in June of 16 felony corruption charges. Rezko had served as John Stroger’s finance chairman and raised $150,000 for him (Stroger put Rezko’s wife on the county payroll) Mr. Obama has never stood up against Chicago’s corruption problem because his donors and allies are Chicago’s corruption problem. Mr. Obama is not the reformer he now claims to be. The real man is the one they know in Chicago the one who won his first election by depriving voters of a choice. "

how can you honestly support this man? How can you knowledgeably vote for this? Are you people that ignorant to recognize the show this guy puts on everyday?

10/9/2008 3:11:08 AM

so Obama is loosely associated with people who have had shady dealings.

that's "Bad"


but McCain and Palin are directly involved -- principal players -- in scandals such as directly
profiting from corrupt investors who caused banks to fail at taxpayer's expense, and corrupting
the State Police force to punish personal enemies, firing state personnel and running up more
taxpayer expenses in resulting wrongful termination suits..

and that's "Good"


right.

i get it, now.

it's all very clear.




[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 3:29 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2008 3:28:30 AM

oh wow

you actually believe he profited from those investors .. even the media is smart enough not to spin that BS .. and palin fired her ex husband for whatever reason, shes governer .. she can do that (which you will see soon) .. the media is making such a big deal about that when its nothing

but i love how you shrug off these "loose" associations

these "loose" associations funded every campaign hes ever been in with millions of dollars of laundered money that obama has lost count for. these loose associations helped hin run unopposed in chicago

these loose associations were people that attended fundraisers at his mansion in 2007 .. the same 1.7 million dollar mansion that was given to him by tony rezco after he acquired it illegally

these same people HAVE JUST BEEN SENTENCED TO PRISON FOR FELONY CORRUPTION ACCOUNTS

OBAMA WAS ON THE SAME PAYROLL THAT THESE MEN ARE SERVING TIME FOR

these ties date back to day 1 of obama's involvement in politics and reaches all the way from Mayor Daley to illinois's governor


this shit happened, his associates are in federal prison for it, his chicago house tangible evidence , obama supported Daleys recent campaign at the time the FBI was conducting federal investigations on the same people that lifted him to highest ranks of government instantly

this is real, this corrupted political machine exists and obama is still tied into it .. how can you seriously vote for this man

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 3:54 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2008 3:47:29 AM

hahahah

there's so much spin on this page I have to read it while on the Discovery One.

Obama "associates" with Tony Rezko, and it's "How can you possibly vote for this man?"

McCain "associates" with the Keating Five, and it's "the media is making such a big deal when it's nothing"

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 8:42 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2008 8:41:58 AM

what to take from this, kiddies:

Politicians are generally dirty, and self-serving.

There.

10/9/2008 8:54:10 AM

mccain was investigated top to bottom and completely cleared, .... this was a bipartisan scandal that happened in 1987 .. this has been in the news for over a decade and the press has certainly done enough investigating as well only to find mccain was never guilty of any fraud.

this has been disclosed in full entirety


on the other hand ...


obama's ENTIRE political past is overflowing with scandal and no investigations on his personal involvement have been conducted (yet), and the press has remained silent and turned a cold shoulder.

for over 50 years, chicagos democratic machine has fraudulently run the city and state with a systematic hierarchy . Community organizers are at the very heart of this corruption. obama and others appointed to districts and neighborhoods all over ensured the machine ran smoothly and finances were acquired in every possible network , i.e. they made you in charge of an area but expected something in return. his service as a organizer is a whole different scandal in itself but thats where his march to the top started

after making friends with several powerful "fundraisers", more favors were given and more opportunities arose. his first election to the state senate was so rigged that the other 7 canidates on the ballot were forced off by "petitions" granted by the head boss.


more money was funneled to obama for his 2nd term and thus more favors were owed (his voting record at the time, along with legislation he "formed on his own" is in the records)

this trend continued until recently as he became a national candidate and his backroom tactics would no longer go unnoticed for too long. despite spacing himself from the people that boosted him up to the top of the political chain, donations never stopped coming. he supported the notorious mayor daley in 2007, the same one that ensured his political success from the start. while all the boosters and fundraisers were left to take the heat, chicagos perfected machine has managed to keep his hands seemingly clean enough to not probe further.

this is not spin, this is backed with cold, hard, facts. this is just the story of a man who went from a community organizer to the front runner in the presidential race in little more than 10 years. yet you nor the press feel the need to look further into his shady past, and yet that only scraped the surface

this was not a single controversial event that happened like the keating 5, this is an entire political career that succeeded because direct involvement with most corrupt political system in our nations history

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 9:33 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2008 9:32:24 AM

Quote :

"obama's ENTIRE political past is overflowing with scandal"

hahahahah

wat?

10/9/2008 9:43:27 AM

what part of chicago politics are you having trouble coming to terms with

10/9/2008 9:48:06 AM

1990: Obama turns down an unsolicited job offer from Rezko

1993: Obama works for small Chicago law firm. One of their not-for-profit clients was partners with Rezko's company.

1995: Rezko's company turns an abandoned nursing home into low-income apartments. Obama, working for the law firm, works 32 hours on the project.

1995: Obama campaigns for the Senate. Rezko donates $2000 to his campaign.

2003: Obama runs for U.S. Senate. Rezko holds a fundraiser for his campaign.

2005: Obama and Rezko's wife purchase adjacent properties that were both owned by a doctor. Obama pays the woman to purchase a small strip of her land so he could have a bigger yard.

2006: Rezko is indicted on kickback charges. $10,000 of the money had been found to be donated to Obama's campaign. Obama donates the money to charity.

*shrug*

10/9/2008 10:05:24 AM

Rezko helped obama buy his house, and obama kept voting for funds to go to rezko even though he was a slumlord.


As for Obama, as it looks more and more like he will win, id look for the dow to fall as near retirees sell off to avoid the raise in capital gains. imo

10/9/2008 10:13:31 AM

haha, you left many zeroes off some of those numbers and about 7 other people's names


and you must be reading the NY Times, because thats about 1/1000th of the actual story

10/9/2008 10:14:20 AM

^^ it would be stupid to sell stock now, considering how low stuff is, even if capital gains taxes are going to be higher.

If someone doesn't need the money now, they'd be much better off just waiting, especially since the economy generally does better under democrats.

And it's amusing you say "i expect the dow to fall" when the Dow's BEEN falling. ha!

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 10:16 AM. Reason : ]

10/9/2008 10:15:50 AM

Actually, no:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/watchdogs/757340,CST-NWS-watchdog24.article

10/9/2008 10:16:07 AM

you do realize that rezko was 1 fundraiser / slumlord amongst a group of 7 who were indicted on federal fraud charges ... and they are only 1 facet of a very large machine that has survived since the 30s

10/9/2008 10:20:43 AM

[Citation Needed]

10/9/2008 10:22:16 AM

exactly moron, Im not selling, but if you are going to be pulling out your money in the next 4-8 years, best pull it out before the capital gains increase.

10/9/2008 10:24:02 AM

http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/dan-shomon-obama-robert-blackwell-illinois-state-grants-obama-retainer-killerspin-blagojevich-rezko-alexi-giannoulias-not-on-msm-msm-being-bought/

"Here are the facts about Dan Shomon, Robert Blackwell, Alexi Giannoulias and Obama’s ties to Shomon, Blackwell, Alexi Giannoulias and Chicago and Illinois corruption:

Dan Shomon was a long time employee of Robert Blackwell and Barack Obama as well as main political advisor to Obama.

Obama initiated the request for Robert Blackwell company Killerspin to receive a grant from Illinois and made the request on official Illinois Senate stationery.

Shoman, while an employee of both Blackwell and Obama secured grants for Blackwell company Killerspin:
$200,000 grant for its 2003 tournament
$100,000 grant for its 2004 tournament

Robert Blackwell had strong ties to Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich who has been mentioned many times during the Tony Rezko corruption trial.
Obama supported the re-election of Gov. Rod Blagojevich, whose administration is embroiled in corruption probes.

EKI, a Blackwell company, gave $20,000 to Blagojevich.
Electronic Knowledge Interchange won $6 million in technology consulting and software development contracts. EKI did no state
work until after Blagojevich took office.
"




http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4365942&page=1

With the corruption trial of one of Sen. Barack Obama's longtime friends and supporters set to begin Monday in Chicago, Ill., reform watchdogs say it will reveal the "cesspool" of Illinois politics in which Obama came of age and has said little about in his campaign for president.

"We have a sick political culture," said Jay Stewart, the executive director of the Chicago Better Government Association, "and that's the environment that Barack Obama came from."

The Rezko trial will focus on Rezko's alleged role in steering Illinois state contracts in exchange for kickbacks and political contributions to Rezko friends.

The most damning examples cited by prosecutors involve Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, but several of the contributions were directed to Obama's 2004 Senate campaign.


In his campaign for president, Obama has railed against people like Rezko.

"If you are ready for change, then we can go ahead and tell the lobbyists and the fat cats that their days are over," he said in a speech last month in Akron, Ohio.

10/9/2008 11:03:54 AM

thats just a couple links of many

10/9/2008 11:08:58 AM

Ok so, first a blog post. We can throw that one out.

And then the second is just a bunch of gross generalizations and hearsay and no fact.

Nice work there. I see that took you at least 45 minutes.

10/9/2008 11:13:23 AM

if you notice, he supplies plentiful valid links that further explain the excerpts he used ... so yea


and gross generalizations with no fact? REZKO IS IN PRISON AND OBAMA GOT CAUGHT WITH THE FRAUDULENT CHECKS... he still tried to deny any relationship with the guy and finally admitted to it when rezko was arrested


are you completely ignorant to the big picture here .. seriously? the evidence out there and is piling up and coming together

his initial supporters and fundraisers are going to prison, obama has been caught in lies and is finally owning up. rezco is in prison for corrupting illinois state contracts to get kickbacks and contributions for people in this political machine, including OBAMA

its not hard to see how deep this goes

10/9/2008 11:43:03 AM

What's the big picture? Honestly, what do you think is going to happen when he gets into office? You're screaming here and furiously typing on your keyboard. What will happen?

10/9/2008 11:49:02 AM

what will happen is we'll have a criminal leading the country.

1+1=2

10/9/2008 11:53:57 AM

Hah, I see.

Let me know what crimes he has committed, and how these will impact the country.

10/9/2008 11:56:15 AM

oh yea, corruption is what we want in a leader


are you that incapable of being the least bit skeptical of this guy

10/9/2008 12:15:09 PM

God, you really are willing to pull the sheets over your head and just pretend like he's some great guy.

I'm still amazed that he has never identified what this big "change" that he's bringing is. He's another crooked politician with a sickening agenda to push. Of course he's anti-gun, he has people whose job is to do nothing but protect him. Just like Rosie.

"Nobody should have guns, but my child will have an armed guard in front of his kindergarten at all times."

What Obama and Rosie mean is that only THEY should be able to have protection and that anyone who can't afford to hire armed guards should be SOL. It's easy to be against guns when you can hire armed guards to protect your family. They don't even have to think about how they would defend themselves. They just know that some dude will push them onto the floor of a bulletproof suburban and whisk them to safety while showering people in a hail of gunfire. Of course, their guards should be able to have guns. But you and I should not. See how that works God?

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM. Reason : ]

10/9/2008 12:17:41 PM

Of course I'm skeptical. I don't like his religious views, and I don't like how he voted for FISA.

I don't believe he will be corrupt in any way, though. If anything, I would believe that McCain is many times more corruptable than Obama.

10/9/2008 12:18:33 PM

the only politics obama knows is a corrupted politics, it got him elected, it got him a 1.3 million dollar mansion, it paid for his campaigns, and god knows what else

10/9/2008 12:27:13 PM

I just don't understand what you think he's going to do when he's president. You're just tossing these vague assumptions like "He'll do SOMETHING! WATCH OUT!"

10/9/2008 12:48:50 PM

He is going to free Mumia

10/9/2008 12:49:43 PM

Quote :

"it paid for his campaigns"

Do you realize that Obama has raised, to date, $420 million? All numbers you've cited so far have been in the thousands. That's not even large enough to be considered a drop in the bucket. Yet, somehow, those minuscule contributions are going to affect his policy making in the White House? You have lost your fucking mind.

[Edited on October 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM. Reason : not even]

10/9/2008 1:04:24 PM