2

10/22/2008 11:54:29 AM

^gg

10/22/2008 11:54:41 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wts-dntnyh4

10/22/2008 1:39:56 PM

just cause you are a lesbo etc

10/22/2008 1:40:32 PM

ha thanks

10/22/2008 1:45:05 PM

Quote :

" That makes no sense. So, without saying the "I don't know therefore I can't assume" bullshit. Tell me, where do you think we came from and where do you think we go after we die? Heaven is real, hell is real, and every corner of the world believes in eternity. The Bible describes hell as a place humans don't even have the brain power to comprehend how horrible it is. Read: 23 minutes in hell. Is that even something you'd want to chance?"

So the cornerstone of your faith is Pascal's Wager?

Do you even understand how fucking flawed that mentality is?

10/22/2008 1:49:47 PM

I agree with you ^, but in some situations, though, Pascal's Wager works.

That's why you have car insurance.

10/22/2008 2:16:32 PM

Quote :

"Read: 23 minutes in hell. Is that even something you'd want to chance?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager#Anti-Pascal_wager

Quote :

"Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy."

Not to mention that you ask "do you want to take a chance" as if people make a choice about what they believe. If they do, does that mean that you're believing in god "on purpose," as it were? That you're making yourself believe because you're afraid of hell? That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? If god is omnipotent, he certainly would see through that ruse.

10/22/2008 2:50:58 PM

10/22/2008 3:05:47 PM

wow

I actually enjoyed reading SOBTurbo's posts in this thread

there really IS no God

10/22/2008 3:07:21 PM

THIS THREAD HAS GONE WELL SONS.

10/22/2008 3:33:40 PM

Theres nothing wrong with being both an agnostic and spiritual deist at the same time. The former you understand you dont know shit. The later you get to explain existence under the condition of the former. In as far as no one knows anything about god, will never know anything about god, but you still can hold onto the 'idea' of god. A lot of america's founding fathers were deist. So how's about everyone wiki it and quit the bellyaching.

10/22/2008 3:48:03 PM

Quote :

"A lot of america's founding fathers were deist. So how's about everyone wiki it and quit the bellyaching."

I'M GOING TO GO AHEAD AND GUESS THAT EVERYONE IN HERE ALREADY KNEW THAT AND IF THEY DIDN'T THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN POSTING IN THIS THREAD SON.

10/22/2008 4:34:46 PM

Quote :

"So, without saying the "I don't know therefore I can't assume" bullshit. Tell me, where do you think we came from and where do you think we go after we die?"

10/22/2008 6:01:03 PM

^ it's not bullshit and its certainly not a cop out. Its called being real.
Who cares what anyone thinks the answer to those question are, they're not provable and never will be. Its called personal spirituality son, keep that shit to yourself.

10/22/2008 6:32:15 PM

But to move the conversation along who would like to wager that most self-admitted athiest actually do believe in god?

Of course, as the agnostic i'm obligated to be the know-it-all who chants that theist and atheist are both idiots one in the same (which they are) with profuse smugness, but I find it interesting that most atheist reuse the whole [if god exist then he must be an arrogant s.o.b, so thats why I'm an athiest] chant. Seriously, think real hard about divine intervention and see if thats something you really want. Superman's real cool till he battles godzilla on your front lawn, so be greatful you live in a world of free will. Sit comfortable that the world is as simple as it is and take ability to think for yourself as a gift from god, whatever it might be.

Speaking as a person, if I were god, I sure as hell wouldn't want to deal with all the people in this world. Knowing me I'd probably blow this shit up frieza style and move on.
(dbz fans would know what i'm talking about)

10/22/2008 7:25:42 PM

that's kind of like saying a church with a lightning rod on the steeple shows a lack of faith in god by the builders and inhabitants of the church.

[Edited on October 22, 2008 at 7:43 PM. Reason : but I'm sure you'll find some way to prove how it doesn't work both ways.]

10/22/2008 7:42:08 PM

The way I would approach that argument is that god doesn't have to be involved at all. A lightning bolt hitting a church steeple on earth is the same as a lightning bolt hitting a rock ridge on venus. They're both random natural events based on weather patterns.

10/22/2008 7:57:44 PM

pfft, everyone knows lightening rods don't work

10/22/2008 8:00:59 PM

christians have unquestionable faith in lightning rods.

10/22/2008 8:06:31 PM

Quote :

"But to move the conversation along who would like to wager that most self-admitted athiest actually do believe in god? Of course, as the agnostic i'm obligated to be the know-it-all who chants that theist and atheist are both idiots one in the same (which they are) with profuse smugness, but I find it interesting that most atheist reuse the whole [if god exist then he must be an arrogant s.o.b, so thats why I'm an athiest] chant. Seriously, think real hard about divine intervention and see if thats something you really want. Superman's real cool till he battles godzilla on your front lawn, so be greatful you live in a world of free will. Sit comfortable that the world is as simple as it is and take ability to think for yourself as a gift from god, whatever it might be. Speaking as a person, if I were god, I sure as hell wouldn't want to deal with all the people in this world. Knowing me I'd probably blow this shit up frieza style and move on. (dbz fans would know what i'm talking about)"

What the fuck is this post? And for your information, I'm a self-admitted Atheist. Why am I an idiot, again?

10/22/2008 9:23:00 PM

Idiot may be a little strong so i'll use irrelevant instead. You support a position that asserts that the existance of god is falsifiable, as in the teapot obiting the sun analogy. You have no knowledge to attain such an outcome so therefore you're just beating a bush. The atheist delusion is perpendicular to the theist delusion in that the notion of god is not definable, nor falsafiable. Anything else is beyond a humans mental capacity. Thats why I said before agnosticism is not a cop out in any way, its an assertion.

I suppose an agnostic atheist is just a logical as me being an agnostic deist though. Both say the same thing with different viewpoints in that you can still 'think' a god does or does not exist but as long as you admit that you do not 'know.'

[Edited on October 22, 2008 at 10:18 PM. Reason : /]

10/22/2008 10:09:04 PM

I think most atheists are really agnostic to various degrees. As Dawkin's and many others have put it (For me at least), I am as agnostic about god as I am about the tooth fairy, which makes me infinitesimally close to a full blown "atheist."

I doubt many atheists would disagree with holding this or a very similar position. I can't disprove the existence of god, but until evidence is provided that supports the existence of one, I don't have to.

[Edited on October 22, 2008 at 10:17 PM. Reason : ]

10/22/2008 10:15:29 PM

^^ That's not true.

^What he said. (Wow, did I just agree with Sobturbo?)

10/22/2008 10:37:07 PM

OMG He does exist!!!

10/22/2008 10:37:36 PM

I'm 27 years old. I grew up in a Christian (Greek Orthodox) household with parents who believed but weren't nearly as into it as others. I asked the typical questions (why do bad things happen to good people, blah blah), and even remained faithful after my 13 year old cousin was killed by a drunk driver. It wasn't until several years later, while in college, after trying my best to defend my ever-weakening faith, that I had the brainstorm. Nobody convinced me - in fact, all of the arguments I'd heard against faith seemed silly to me. No, what convinced me was my own research into the workings of the universe and the history of god. In fact, the first book that really convinced me to stop believing wasn't even meant to do that.

It was The History Of God, by Karen Armstrong. She just plainly lays out the facts about where the story of the Judeo-Christian god came from, and it's very very very painfully clear when you see those facts that the god that modern Jews and Christians know and love is a conglomeration of pagan and pre-judaic gods sort of jumbled together. Not only that, but he's not even built very well. The holes and contradictions in the bible that people always notice but ignore actually exist because of how hastily this god was created. It's so blatantly obvious when you read the history that it's completely unbelievable that anyone would still believe he exists.

Now, we can contrast that with the idea of *a god* or *a supreme being*, which are kind of unnecessary to my worldview but are, as some have pointed out, completely unfalsifiable and therefore impossible to plainly say don't exist. I don't think they do; I don't see any reason to think they do. Most of the mysteries we attributed to miracles and gods, we can now explain. It's only a matter of time until that is the case for everything.

Some would say that takes the excitement out of existence, or that there's no point if we don't have a purpose, but to me, it's quite the opposite. If there's no supreme being, no rules that define conduct, no moral codes and ethics defined by some supernatural entity, then that means we've done this all on our own. The world isn't perfect, of course, but that's sort of the point, right? We have built our world, and we've made mistakes, and we've had triumphs and tribulations, but in the end, we're here. We are, in a sense, the universe becoming conscious. With a god causing all of that to happen, we wouldn't be able to attribute any of that to our ancestors working so hard and living through ice ages, predators, and who knows what else.

We've prevailed, and in my way of seeing things, we've done it on our own. I still, somehow, believe that we might even make it to some exciting future in which we don't even have to destroy the world to live on it, and we might even carry that ability to other worlds.

Basically, what I'm saying is, don't dare to presume to know what it's like to feel the thrill of knowing your existence was a matter of happenstance, and that against all odds, your species made it to consciousness and love and science and philosophy without anyone's help. You couldn't possibly know what that's like, and I hope one day more people do. You're quite welcome to your faith, but leave me out of it, please.

As for the Dawkins scale, I think it's pretty handy, and I'm a 6.


http://christophersisk.com/dawkins-belief-scale-images/

[Edited on October 22, 2008 at 11:29 PM. Reason : edited for niceness]

10/22/2008 11:03:12 PM

^^^
Very true. Similar to how a deist doesn't have to validate their god's existance either as its already done for them in the abstract. Absence of nothing equals something (I guess you could say the universe speaks for that).

I think Einstein said it best along the lines of:
If god is infinite than all things finite (stars, moons, plants, matter) are therefore a part of god.
I thought that was kinda nifty.

Anyway, to each his own.

^

Woah I never said I thought our existance is all happenstance and trust me, I know a good bit of the realities of the beginnings of the Judeo religion. You should read Ishmeal. It'll put that sucker into perspective fast. Especially about the genesis story, garden of eden. ALL metaphors of a species-centric being - us.

and btw dude the whole point of me being a agnostic deist is to give that purpose to existance in my own way. Your assuming a lot when infact your talking to a guy with almost the same exact ideas.

And when it comes to the purpose of not only our lifes but the rest of life on the planet its all relative. I'll even be so bold to word it. Its to become more intelligent. Think about it, what is evolution? What are all species constantly doing? There becoming more organized in thought process and better adapting to their habitat. So in essence to become more intelligent IS the purpose of life. (i'll probably get flamed for this :p) God is intrinsic in my ideas in that God is the foundation, the phsical laws that make all this happen, the beginning and the end, the finger that nocked over the first domino. So you see, while I admit I dont know everything I do not pressume that the reason we're all here is not for nothing.

And also according to what that dawkin scale said, it admits to agnostism outright in that it used the terminology "assume," which indicates "without knowledge." Exactly what agnostism refers to in latin.

[Edited on October 22, 2008 at 11:30 PM. Reason : in response to the greek]

10/22/2008 11:05:19 PM

If you had the same beliefs as me, you definitely wouldn't have made the assumption that most atheists believe in god. Or maybe you meant something else, I dunno. However, glad to know you're thinking critically - previous message edited to reflect that.

And yes, Ishmael changed my life. Story of B, however, gives religion the TKO shot and relates it to our dangerous culture and the ways we've fucked up.

[Edited on October 22, 2008 at 11:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/22/2008 11:29:32 PM

As it did me. I definetly will start B as soon as i'm done with this stephen king i'm reading right now. But mainly what I was trying to bring out or incite with that comment was the contradiction in atheist veiws. I just feel like a lot of them are pissed off that if god doesn't have some real impact in their personal affairs god therefore must be automatically some sort of arrogant bystander and all. [I think you would agree as an ishmeal reader this is similar to judeo religion in that man is supposed to be cast in god's image and that the earth belongs to us and such] And that just doesn't really hit me right, thats why I made the comment about 'divine intervention.' Also they go around pretending to be atheist just because it makes them feel smarter than others, when infact it really doesn't...not logically.

So maybe its not most self-admitted atheists but to me it makes up a lot of them.

[Edited on October 22, 2008 at 11:51 PM. Reason : dam that was some ugly editing, done]

10/22/2008 11:40:26 PM

I was going to post smthg like this in the Cary car accident by church state.

10/23/2008 12:00:42 AM

Also I just want to say I personally dont care if someone chooses to be an atheist. As long as they use words like "assume" and they know what morals are its no sweat off my back. And I wouldn't really want to try converting one to my views as its all strictly personal preference to me. Plus they tend to depress me.

[Edited on October 23, 2008 at 12:05 AM. Reason : ]

10/23/2008 12:03:51 AM

Quote :

"Also I just want to say I personally dont care if some chooses to be an atheist. As long as they know what morals are its no sweat off my back. And I wouldn't really want to try converting one to my views as its all strictly personal preference to me. Plus they tend to depress me."

morality is relative and has nothing to do with religion

10/23/2008 12:11:34 AM

Agreed, and to go deeper its has to do with instinct. Social conditioning, you do something bad over and over you get kicked out of the group. Just look at chimpanzees.

10/23/2008 12:15:20 AM

Quote :

"I think Einstein said it best along the lines of: If god is infinite than all things finite (stars, moons, plants, matter) are therefore a part of god. I thought that was kinda nifty."

IT'S WORTH NOTING THAT EINSTEIN WAS A DIE HARD SUPPORTER OF STEADY STATE. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT HE REFUSED TO LET GO OF HIS BELIEF IN STEADY STATE.

POINT BEING:

NOBODY, AND YES THAT INCLUDES EINSTEIN, IS INFALLIBLE. ONE OTHER THING TO CONSIDER IS THAT HIS IDEA OF "GOD" AND YOURS COULD BE VASTLY DIFFERENT. I BELIEVE HE WAS LIKELY REFERRING TO THE UNIVERSE WHEN HE SAID "GOD."

[Edited on October 23, 2008 at 7:46 AM. Reason : ]

10/23/2008 7:44:17 AM

^ THAT'S METRO, SON! GOD IS META, SON! GET WITH IT!

10/23/2008 7:54:05 AM

Even though Einstein would probably be the most reputable figure for this type of thinking he still is certainly fallible. Similar to how his theory of relativity has confliicted with newer quantam mechanics, it just goes to show no one knows everything. I like his comment though because it gravitates toward the whole 'everything is still part of one' idea which is seen a lot in eastern religion/philosophy.

10/23/2008 8:01:30 AM

^^ STEP OUT DA BAR SON.

BYE SON.

10/23/2008 8:26:08 AM

just so you know, don't post shit like this in chitchat...

10/23/2008 9:49:43 AM

Quote :

"Superman's real cool till he battles godzilla on your front lawn"

hahaha

10/23/2008 10:01:14 AM

DON'T LISTEN TO THAT FUCKING JANITOR (Arab13), HE ALWAYS TELLS PEOPLE THAT HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE "HE WORKS AT DUKE."

OF COURSE, HE NEVER FUCKING BOTHERS TO MENTION THAT HE'S A MOTHERFUCKING JANITOR. DUKE'S JANITORS MUST BE "NUCULAR" (NEW-CUE-LUR) ENGINEERS SON. THEY'VE NEVER HEARD OF A NUCLEUS. WELL, I MEAN, THEY HAVE BUT THEY CALL IT THE NUCULUS SON.

ANYWAY, THE POINT IS HE'S A FUCKING JANITOR SO THERE'S NO NEED TO LISTEN TO HIM.

10/23/2008 10:05:53 AM

Find your own happiness guy, just don't force your happiness on me or pity me because I don't share it.

10/23/2008 10:13:34 AM

Quote :

"THOUSANDS OF YEARS, YEP THEY SURE DID THINK ABOUT IT THAT LONG AND YOU KNOW WHAT? THEY DIDN'T KNOW SHIT FOR THOSE THOUSANDS OF YEARS. SO THEY SAT THERE AND MADE SHIT UP IN THEIR MINDS SON. UNTIL SOMEBODY PROVIDES EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE ACCURACY OF A RELIGIOUS TEXT WHEN REFERRING TO ANY SUPERNATURAL EVENTS OR BEINGS, IT WILL BE NOTHING MORE THAN BASELESS SPECULATION. SURE, I CAN'T DISPROVE A SINGLE GOD'S OR MULTIPLE GODS' EXISTENCE, BUT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO THINK THERE IS ONE. NOTHING MENTIONS IT BESIDES ANCIENT TEXTS WRITTEN BY OTHER HUMAN BEINGS IN TIMES WHEN NOTHING ABOUT THIS WORLD WAS WELL UNDERSTOOD (AND CULT LEADERS WHO GET IDEAS FROM TEXTS AND/OR THEIR OWN INSANITY DO ALSO MANUFACTURE THESE CLAIMS). EVEN A FEW HUNDRED YEARS AGO PEOPLE THOUGHT COMPASSES HAD FUCKING MAGICAL POWERS, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE FUCK THE DAMN THINGS WORKED. IT WAS TRADITION SON! DOES THAT MEAN THAT WE STILL NEED TO HOLD ON TO THOSE BELIEFS? FUCK NO SON. SO NO, I CAN'T DISPROVE GOD, JUST LIKE I CAN'T DISPROVE SANTA CLAUS OR THE TOOTH FAIRY. LUCKILY, UNTIL THERE IS SOME MERIT IN THE CLAIM THAT GOD DOES EXIST, I WON'T HAVE TO DISPROVE IT. JUST BECAUSE YOU MAKE A CLAIM DOESN'T MEAN IT HAS MERIT, NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOUR RELIGION PUSHER TELLS YOU IT DOES. YOU CAN'T MAKE CLAIMS WHEN THERE'S NOTHING TO SUPPORT SUCH CLAIMS AND THEN EXPECT INTELLIGENT PEOPLE TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY SON. SOMEHOW PEOPLE MAKE AN EXCEPTION WHEN IT COMES TO RELIGION THOUGH, THEY WILL THROW OUT EVERYTHING THEY KNOW AND FEEL JUST TO MAKE IT WORK. RELIGIOUS SCIENTISTS WILL BEND THE TRUTH OR BEND THEIR RELIGIOUS TEXTS SUCH THAT THEY MESH TOGETHER. PEOPLE, FOR WHATEVER REASON, ARE FRIGHTENED OF LETTING GO OF THEIR RELIGIONS. THEY MAKE UP STUPID SHIT LIKE, "WITHOUT RELIGION WHERE WOULD YOU GET YOUR MORALS FROM?!?!?!" WELL SON, YOU DON'T CURRENTLY GET YOUR MORALS FROM RELIGION AND IF YOU DO, THEN YOU'RE A PSYCHOPATH. IF THE ONLY REASON YOU DON'T RAPE, MURDER, STEAL, CHEAT AND LIE IS BECAUSE YOU'RE AFRAID OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, THEN SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH YOU. "

I enjoyed reading this very much


but you still annoy me

10/23/2008 10:18:58 AM

Quote :

"DON'T LISTEN TO THAT FUCKING JANITOR (Arab13), HE ALWAYS TELLS PEOPLE THAT HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT BECAUSE "HE WORKS AT DUKE." OF COURSE, HE NEVER FUCKING BOTHERS TO MENTION THAT HE'S A MOTHERFUCKING JANITOR. DUKE'S JANITORS MUST BE "NUCULAR" (NEW-CUE-LUR) ENGINEERS SON. THEY'VE NEVER HEARD OF A NUCLEUS. WELL, I MEAN, THEY HAVE BUT THEY CALL IT THE NUCULUS SON. ANYWAY, THE POINT IS HE'S A FUCKING JANITOR SO THERE'S NO NEED TO LISTEN TO HIM."

what the fuck are you talking about boy

10/23/2008 10:21:15 AM

i think it's pretty obvious that Saabturbo has no God in his life other than himself.

10/23/2008 10:21:20 AM

lol yeah pretty much

10/23/2008 10:22:12 AM

^ SUSPEND.

Quote :

"i think it's pretty obvious that Saabturbo has no God in his life other than himself."

YES SON, THERE ARE NO gODS IN MY LIFE THAT I KNOW OF SON. YES, I HAD TO NEGATE YOU CAPITALIZING THAT WORD BY NOT CAPITALIZING IT SON.

AS FAR AS ME BEING MY OWN GOD, THAT DOESN'T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE SON. I GUESS IT MIGHT MAKE SENSE IF YOU TOOK WHAT I DO ON HERE SERIOUSLY THOUGH SON. MY BABY DEEBU SAYS YOU NEED TO GO FUCK YOURSELF IN THE CORNER NOW.

STEP OUT DA BAR SON.

BYE SON.

[Edited on October 23, 2008 at 10:26 AM. Reason : ]

10/23/2008 10:24:21 AM

10/23/2008 10:32:47 AM

don't make me rain down on you, saab.


scorched earth, motherfucker. scorched fucking earth.

10/23/2008 10:38:22 AM

there's nothing to scorch, that's his 'thing'

he has nothing



[Edited on October 23, 2008 at 12:07 PM. Reason : l]

10/23/2008 12:04:43 PM

^ Thats some mighty good looking head attire there.
*stomach growels*

10/23/2008 12:14:00 PM