Boone is the only person in this thread who seems to have any common sense so far.

10/27/2008 11:21:52 PM

^sarcasm?

10/27/2008 11:23:23 PM

No.

More like a bunch of 20 somethings fresh out of college with professional degrees in highly technical fields who have salaries that are disproportionately high compared to the overwhelming majority of Americans make incredibly poor judges of what constitutes middle class.

I was (and am) being 100 percent sincere.

10/27/2008 11:41:17 PM

Quote :

"do people view the ranges differently if it's 2 married with no kids or people with multiple kids does the # of people living off the income change the range?"

It would have to. Combined 100k income with two mouths to feed is a lot different than if those two mouths plus 3 kids.

10/28/2008 12:12:50 AM

Quote :

"Single person making 75,000 year, pays 24509 dollars in income tax"

God that is fucking disgusting. At what point does it become slavery? When the gov't takes 90 percent of it? 80 percent? 30 percent?

10/28/2008 12:16:17 AM

Quote :

"This whole notion that $250k is middle class is beyond ridiculous."

QFT. I question whether I can call my family middle class because my dad was making six figures at one point.

(I feel as poor as dirt after reading this thread.)

10/28/2008 1:10:42 AM

Oh you silly southerners.

Ask a family in NYC making 250 K whether they are rich or middle class.

It varies with the geography.

10/28/2008 1:12:58 AM

So use purchasing power parity, then.

10/28/2008 1:17:26 AM

Quote :

"class because my dad was making six figures at one point. "

Income in the 6 figures is not "rich"

10/28/2008 7:25:28 AM

people confuse upper middle class with wealthy.

Being wealthy is more than money.

10/28/2008 7:50:45 AM

Median household income in the US is $50,233.00.

So ya'll are saying that as single 20-something's making >$75k, you're middle class?

And that households making 4 times the median income is still middle class?

Quote :

"More like a bunch of 20 somethings fresh out of college with professional degrees in highly technical fields who have salaries that are disproportionately high compared to the overwhelming majority of Americans make incredibly poor judges of what constitutes middle class."

10/28/2008 8:03:40 AM

Quote :

"So ya'll are saying that as single 20-something's making >$75k, you're middle class?"

If we are talking about in the Carolinas then yes. I dont make too far below there, will be there in like 2 years I am hoping (I am 23 at the moment) and I do not know how I could not consider myself middle class. I am living in an apt that is certainly less than a mortgage would be for a house I would get, I have my car paid off so I dont even have car payments and I still dont have much spending money outside of the 450 a month I am putting aside for a house down payment. I also still have $25,000 in loans that will take me awhile to pay off. Sure I could back out of the 20% going into my 401k if I had to, and Im sure thats what youll argue but I just do not feel like I am not middle class - and this is coming from someone who's parents both make less than I do so its not like im coming from some 250k income family where my perspective is skewed.

Im not sure what kind of luxurious life you think I am living. Sure I am VERY grateful to be where I am and realize I am very far from anything I would consider poverty. But I am also far from any point where I would not consider myself middle class, especially considering that I am doing this job so that my future wife will be able to focus on kids (thus if you are assuming we are going to have close to 2x my income that is def way off).

It is important to note that I am not complaining at all. I am very happy with where I am but simply responding to this thread.

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 8:28 AM. Reason : ]

10/28/2008 8:12:16 AM

Quote :

"God that is fucking disgusting. At what point does it become slavery? When the gov't takes 90 percent of it? 80 percent? 30 percent?"

what

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 8:41 AM. Reason : .]

10/28/2008 8:41:17 AM

Quote :

"Sure I could back out of the 20% going into my 401k if I had to"

I mean, come on... What percentage of America is sending 20% to their 401k at age 23?


My wife and I make a little over $75k combined at 26 years old, and we're living extremely well. All the kids in this thread QQ'ing over living the single life and making >$75k are hilarious.

You all, at 20-something, are living off of significantly more than most American families of four live off of.

10/28/2008 8:43:44 AM

Quote :

"40K is poor in NY, San Fran or southern California, no matter how you slice it."

No its not. you bring home 3k per month lets say 36k and you pay 1k per month for a decent studio in Manhattan. Now you have 2k left but you don't have to pay for a car, car insurance or gas. 100 for a metro card. 400 utilities and 500 for food but you still have 1000 to save per month.

10/28/2008 8:44:31 AM

^^ I am not QQing over it and I tried to make that clear more than once. But just because I am living comfortably, I still do not think that 75k is out of my description of middle class. Of course I am not making 75k yet either but I dont see the extra money between what I make now and what I will make when I do make 75k being life changing.

I do not think that age has much to do with it. I look at pure numbers. So the fact that I am 23 (turning 24 next week) doesn't affect whether I am middle class at the moment or not.

So, while you may think that 75k is middle class I strongly disagree. And no offense since I never have problems with you but, you need to stop assuming that simply because someone says they are not middle class that they are whining. We are simply arguing a point here. I never once whined or cried. In fact I pointed out 2x in my post that was extremely happy where I was and realized I was in a good position so that you wouldn't give that canned response and you still assumed I was whining...

I am not asking for special privileges by trying to think I am still middle class or something. Frankly I just think that considering $75k of income to not be middle class just because you make less and get by is ludicrous.

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 9:09 AM. Reason : ]

10/28/2008 8:48:18 AM

Quote :

"people confuse upper middle class with wealthy"

absolutely.

"middle class" covers a very wide range. "lower middle class"/"working class" types don't have a lot of money, but they do ok. the upper end of upper middle class is pretty well off, but they're still not upper class or "rich".

a million (or even a couple million) dollars, these days at least, does not make you rich. neither does a quarter million dollar salary.

At the other end of the spectrum, making $35k/year is still quite comfortable. I made $37k my first year out of school...I drove a bad ass sports car (spent $20k on it), maxed my Roth IRA, dined out regularly, and still had hundreds of dollars (even having close to $1000 was not unusual) leftover every month.

Now I make maybe $75k. I haven't added it all up exactly, and I don't mind divulging it, because it's public record anyway. I assure you that it is not outside the realm of middle class. It's not even upper middle class.

In addition, I feel somewhat qualified to make judgements on this...growing up, my dad cut hair and my mom didn't work. Neither went to college, and they had me when they were 23 and 22. They moved out of their singlewide trailer right before I was born, into a ranch house on family land. I remember eating a lot of mac & cheese and hamburger helper, riding around in kind of crappy cars, and being told "no, we don't have the money for that" when I'd ask for something. We were by no means poor, but definitely lower middle class. My the time I was in highschool, my dad was selling insurance and mom had gone back to work. By the time I was in college, my dad managed an insurance agency (with mom still working). They drove a Lexus LS400 and an Infinity Q45 (the top of the line cars from those companies at the time, thought each were bought used, a couple of years old), dad bought a motorcycle, bought a 1/4 share of an oceanfront beach condo, and lived in probably a ~350k house. Still not rich by any means, but well into the upper middle class.

Some of you seem to have some crazy ideas about what constututes a large or a small amount of income and wealth.

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 9:27 AM. Reason : people living way beyond their means also skews some of your perceptions]

10/28/2008 9:26:12 AM

Quote :

"people living way beyond their means also skews some of your perceptions"

yea i almost said that as well. and I agree with most of your post.

10/28/2008 9:28:34 AM

According to census data:


Household income distribution

Bottom 10% $0 to $10,500
Bottom 20% $0 to $18,500
Bottom 25% $0 to $22,500
Middle 33% $30,000 to $62,500
Middle 20% $35,000 to $55,000
Top 25% $77,500 and up
Top 20% $92,000 and up
Top 5% $167,000 and up
Top 1.5% $250,000 and up
Top 1% $350,000 and up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

How exactly is a single 20-something who's just a tick below the top 25% middle class?

And how are families in the top 1.5% middle class?

10/28/2008 9:37:48 AM

I am not defining classes by some cute little bracket and the amount of money that can be taken home rather by the average/normal lifestyle lived by people with certain income. I mean, I would guess besides my friends from my company (some of which do make 75k), the majority of my friends make 35,000 a year or less. And despite putting more into my 401k we live pretty much the same lives, in fact some of them have newer, nicer cars than I do. And the friends of mine who make 75k dont live better lives than I do.

We all hang out on a regular basis, go on trips together, eat out together, etc. The quality of life and things we are doing are not that different. So I dont see how someone can say that any of us are that far apart in lifestyles. I dont even make 75 as I've stated before, but I just dont see a big difference in any of our lifestyles yet you are saying some of us are middle class and some arent apparently.

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 10:03 AM. Reason : ]

10/28/2008 10:02:46 AM

The problem with just looking at current lifestyles--particularly among singles/couples just starting their lives and careers--is not taking into account the future.

Let's say guy A makes 75K and guy B makes 35K. They both drive the same types of cars, live in the same houses, go to the same restaurants, etc. In 10 years, guy A probably has considerable savings/investments to his name whereas guy B probably has very little assuming all the other stuff is equal. The difference between the two salaries is much more pronounced over a long time frame.

10/28/2008 10:10:24 AM

I cant believe no one commented on the Caddyshack II reference.

10/28/2008 10:12:11 AM

middle class doesn't mean middle of America, it describes a freaking life style. Of course the median is low, 20% of the households in this country make < 20k a year. (for reference, working 40/week for 50 weeks at 10/hour is 20k/year)

Omar, that was based on definitions as defined by academic break downs of American society. It's break down is based on job responsibilities and roles and the incomes associated with those jobs. As opposed to dividing everyone up based on income first and then seeing what jobs fall under those. Now if you are both making 100k+ each then you are upper(market depending, i am referring to the triangle area), but if your combined is in the 100-150k range that's more middle-middle class to me, but that's not one of their defined tiers.

40k a year is not 3k a month take home, learn to taxes. city + state + fed + ss + medicare would be about 30% of that income after standard deductions. So probably around 10k in taxes on that one.

since 75k is boone's magic number, lets break it down, 75k single salary in the triangle

7500 to 401k
2000 to a Roth
22000 to taxes
7200 rent (600/month living in a nice work convenient place)
1800 gas (150/month)
1560 cable/internet (130/month digital w/showtime, dexter + weeds)
1200 power/water (100/month)
150 renters ins
4200 car payment (350/month 20k auto loan, 5 year, decent rate)
400 hair care (mens, you normally have to look the part for jobs like this, it means regular grooming)
500 car ins (new car)
8000 food/dining out/dating (you stop going dutch, you take a woman out, that's gonna cost you 70-100 bucks these days for dinner and a movie, dinner and a club/drinks even more. 2 dates a month will run you 2000-2500 + your regular food, out with the guys, maybe a nice celebratory Friday dinner at work after pulling a big account or something)
120 oil changes
2000 gifts for others (birthdays, anniversaries, wedding, baby gifts, Christmas. People i know need to stop getting married)
1800 clothing (150/month again, looking professional cost, you cant wear shirts with mustard stains)
2400 incidentals (dvds, cds, video games, tp, toothpaste etc)
2000 (vacation/visit friends/family)
480 health ins (40/month)
3000 student loans (education isn't cheap)
200 gym fees/equipment


after this, you have about 8500 left. You can
A) blow it like a jack ass, and then yes, you can get your bmw. (which would add another 4200 or so to your payments per year for the 330i)
B) Stick it into investments
C) Save it towards a house down payment, wedding, get nice furnishings for your dwelling
D) have some cash to actually put towards a hobby.

you are not rich/rolling in it. You are living a nice, comfortable life style and you are part of the middle class.

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 10:35 AM. Reason : a]

10/28/2008 10:32:34 AM

^ you as well as others keep mentioning household - i guess in my head i think of a household to consist of some sort of family typically and not a single person who potentially even has a roommate but most of your examples seem to only mention a single person

10/28/2008 10:37:40 AM

that particular post was for boone's single guys making 75k a year are rolling in fat stacks theory.

In general 'class' is defined on a per household basis. 2-4 single guys sharing a house creates an interesting issue for this since that's technically 4 tax filing households with no dependents in 1 physical house. Let's defined household as a tax paying entity. Personally I am 1 half of a dink household, i would consider us a middle-middle class triangle household. If i live where my parents lived with this kind of income, I'd be house on a golf course kinda house hold. So regional changes make a lot of difference.

10/28/2008 10:49:45 AM

Also, Middle class != Middle Income

10/28/2008 10:52:12 AM

and since we are using the local area for a reference for many of use, the median income in cary nc is 75k, family is 89k. 61% of the people age 25 and up in cary also hold at least a Baccalaureate degree

10/28/2008 11:16:40 AM

Quote :

"Let's say guy A makes 75K and guy B makes 35K. They both drive the same types of cars, live in the same houses, go to the same restaurants, etc. In 10 years, guy A probably has considerable savings/investments to his name whereas guy B probably has very little assuming all the other stuff is equal. The difference between the two salaries is much more pronounced over a long time frame."

I definitely understand that and agree, but still consider them both middle class. If you want to break them down even further like other people have with lower and upper middle class thats fine. But saying someone is "rich" or "wealthy" because they are making 75k in their 20s is a little silly.

10/28/2008 11:58:09 AM

Boone like many "working class" americans have a flawed view of socio-economic class based purely on income and not having a full realization on wealth.

Living paycheck to paycheck a large percentage of americans just do not understand why some people are rich. They only know you show up to work and make money. Thus someone who is "upper" class must be rich simply because they get a really Fat paycheck every Friday.

I think one of the qualifiers to categorize someone as rich though would be an income in the top 5%.

10/28/2008 12:28:01 PM

To play to Boone's example. For a married couple with a 50k income this year versus a single guy with a 75k income I did a little math:

If they both contributed 20% to a 401k and after that take into account federal tax, the married couple takes home $36k and the single guy takes home $52k. Since Boone seems to think that only the guy with 75k would contribute 20% to his 401k lets assume the married couple contributes 10%. In this case the couple making $50k bring home $40k while the single guy takes home $52k. If they choose to not contribute to a 401k and the single guy still contributes, they bring home about $45 vs his $52.

Now lets take this out 10 years. Assume the same tax %s as 2008, and the only way to make it fair is to use the same % raise over the course of 10 years at say 5% per year and run the same calculations. Now, the income for the couple is $77000 while the single guy is $116,000.

Single guy brings home: $73000
couple brings home: $54000

and just for fun
couple with 10% 401k: $60,000
couple with 0% 401k: %66,000

I am just not seeing big enough gaps to justify Boone saying a couple making $50000 definitely IS middle class while a single guy making $75000 in the same year is definitely NOT middle class and is apparently in a whole different league of wealth as the couple.

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 12:35 PM. Reason : ]

10/28/2008 12:32:20 PM

Quote :

"Boone like many "working class" americans have a flawed view of socio-economic class based purely on income and not having a full realization on wealth. Living paycheck to paycheck a large percentage of americans just do not understand why some people are rich. They only know you show up to work and make money. Thus someone who is "upper" class must be rich simply because they get a really Fat paycheck every Friday."

Clearly investments play a large role in the standard of living. But where exactly does one get enough capital to accumulate a large amount of wealth without a fat paycheck or trust fund?


And what's this "working class [...] living paycheck to paycheck" stuff? I'm a teacher and my wife is an engineer. We invest over half of my paycheck each month. For someone who's so adamant about being a member of the middle class, you sure are uppity.

10/28/2008 12:41:05 PM

All y'all are rich to me. It don't pay to be a good-for-nothing anarchist. (And that's exactly how it should be.)

On the other hand, I don't think I live any worse now than when my dad was making crazy money. Quality of life doesn't necessarily correlate with spending.

10/28/2008 12:49:11 PM

now you are just talking semantics.

the difference, as noted above is about having money and having wealth.

10/28/2008 12:52:56 PM

Quote :

"But where exactly does one get enough capital to accumulate a large amount of wealth without a fat paycheck or trust fund?"

Time, hard work, upward mobility. 75k for a singles not a fat pay check. Its a nice pay check. Its a not worrying to much about increased milk prices but not flashy pay check, its middle class.

10/28/2008 1:12:44 PM

Quote :

"Time, hard work, upward mobility"

...will get you into the upper class. What are you trying to argue, though?

HUR's arguing that you can have the prerequisite capital and still be a member of the middle class

[Edited on October 28, 2008 at 1:35 PM. Reason : ]

10/28/2008 1:35:05 PM

Quote :

""But where exactly does one get enough capital to accumulate a large amount of wealth without a fat paycheck or trust fund?""

1. getting married in your mid twenties and staying married (no divorce)
2. not having kids for several years - 5+
3. living off of one paycheck and saving the bulk of the other for that time.

10/28/2008 1:38:18 PM

Which is why number in household and age should be a factor, as I stated on page one.

10/28/2008 1:40:36 PM

^^^

You need to keep your terminology straight.

are you talking about INCOME or CAPITAL?

You can be middle class, and have a low, middle, or high income
you can be upper class, and have a low, middle, or high income

10/28/2008 1:43:34 PM

That's where we disagree, I think. It's purely income in relation to household size, age, and geography.

If you're making making $300,000 but gambling it all away, you're still upper class. You're just dumb.

The inverse is true in regards to a lower class person who maximizes their income.

10/28/2008 1:47:04 PM

Quote :

"1. getting married in your mid twenties and staying married (no divorce) 2. not having kids for several years - 5+"

sucks how accumulating wealth conflicts with natural selection.

10/28/2008 1:50:31 PM

I'm so glad I don't want kids. As long as I only have to support myself, I should be able to get by. Children cost mad cash.

10/28/2008 2:13:07 PM

^^^

Ok, let's look at the example of Andrew Lahde. He made multiple millions in hedge funds, and recently cashed out, and is not going to be earning any more money. In 2009 until he either dies or runs out of money, his income will be zero.

By your definition of class as "purely income" this guy will be lower class starting next year although he has more money in the bank than any of us are likely to see in our lifetimes.

10/28/2008 2:24:00 PM

Boone

you are pwning yourself left and right

just stop

10/28/2008 2:25:51 PM

Well hell, you were able to find an exception. Pwnt.


I'm not the one claiming you have to be in the top 1.5% before you leave the middle class.

10/28/2008 2:38:19 PM

Quote :

"I'm a teacher and my wife is an engineer"

Inverse of you, I am an entry level engineer and my girl is going to be an elementary school teacher. When I am also seeing her income, technically we will be in the top 15% based on the census bureau, but I consider a couple like that to be a professional but middle class family lifestyle based on the avg income of each career type.

Basically my whole point is that there are always more people in the lowest income ranges than the highest income ranges dragging down the median household incomes. To me, middle class lifestyle that most of us are arguing for does NOT directly correlate to the median household income because I believe that there can be significantly more people in one lifestyle bracket than another which totally blows median income out of the water.

The way you are looking at it, you are simply rehashing median income over and over while I am defining Middle Class as a lifestyle which is more of how I feel classes have been defined classically. Classes usually do not have a set amount of income, rather they are judged by their socioeconomic status (more or less).

Even when the term was first used you had peasants, middle class, and noble class. There were multiples more peasants than any of the other classes, fewer middle class, and and even smaller amount in the noble class. They didnt define them but the dollar amount they made rather their social circle, job type, etc. If they used some form of median income, it obviously would have been weighed down by the volume of people in the peasantry class which would have meant that some of those in the "upper middle" class would, by your logic, be viewed in the noble class which they were definitely not.

While the social class lines are much less blurred today and easier to cross, the same logic applies. There are a LOT more people in the lowest brackets than the highest brackets which makes using a median income to describe middle class useless imo.

10/28/2008 3:07:11 PM

Quote :

"HUR's arguing that you can have the prerequisite capital and still be a member of the middle class "

HUH??!?!? what??

Did not I claim the opposite. You were the one that said being rich/wealth/upper class was a function of income.

10/28/2008 5:19:31 PM

Quote :

"Let's say guy A makes 75K and guy B makes 35K. They both drive the same types of cars, live in the same houses, go to the same restaurants, etc. "

Well, there's half the problem right there.

Most people spend first, then save what's left. I treat my savings/investment just like a bill, and I have done so since I first got out of college. Not once have I cheated and put less into savings one month in order to have more money for something I wanted. The guy making 35k/year needs to realize that he can't do all of the same things as the guy making twice as much...something has to give. He can either live a comparable lifestyle, or he can save, invest, and move up the ladder...but you can't do both.

Quote :

"that particular post was for boone's single guys making 75k a year are rolling in fat stacks theory. "

Dude, I assure you, being single and making 75k/year does not have you rolling in stacks of cash. Even making low-mid 60s (with $12k/year in child support), and having 2 roommates, I distinctly remember a night where I didn't join my friends for a movie because I didn't have the $15 to spare without dipping into savings or putting it on credit (in hindsight, I should've just gone, but I didn't).

Now, making $75k/year as a single guy with no dependants, legal expenses, school loans, etc...that is a comfortable lifestyle, but it is not even REMOTELY close to "rich" or "upper class". It's just a little bit nicer "middle America" type lifestyle. A few more/nicer toys, a nicer vacation (if you can get the time to do it), etc. Nothing even approaching a fundamentally different lifestyle.

10/28/2008 5:41:41 PM

theDuke866 what % do you save per month??

I had to buy some things needed after getting my job recently but I plan to stabilize out and automatically save a certain % every month.

10/28/2008 8:56:14 PM

you guys can't just make your own definitions of middle class. middle class incomes don't go above 100k and start around the median income or lower depending on where you live. Its really quite simple.


People making above 100k cannot be considered middle class because money and price does not play a role in their everyday life. Gas prices, food prices heating prices and such could double and they wouldn't even have to worry about how they were going to keep the same wheras the middle class must budget and pay close attention to things like that.


Over 100k aren't necessarily rich but they are well above middle class. I would call them lower rich class up until 250k. It really doesn't matter that much though (separating rich into subdivisions because once you're making 100k you are set. Its not like you are able to get more necessities when you go from 100k to 300k.

10/29/2008 1:41:41 PM

Just had to post this...

10/29/2008 1:58:15 PM