The slapfight is getting hung up on whether atheists

a) believe in the most probable explanation for things
or
b) whether atheists say without qualification that there cannot be a god

I don't know any atheist of type b, and I suspect it is a strawman. Every atheist I know is of type a, where they don't believe in a god because there simply is no good reason to do so.

Now, you can get into ancillary arguments arguments about stuff like "if there were evidence of the supernatural, wouldn't that phenomenon then become natural rather than supernatural?", where the conclusion is that a and b become equivalent. However, the bottom line still comes down to taking the most likely belief in something given all the available evidence.

Needless to say, there is a huge difference in the amount of faith required to take the most probable explanation rather than supernatural explanations.


If you cant even agree on what atheist means, you might as well stop trying to argue.

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 10:35 PM. Reason : .]

12/22/2008 10:34:30 PM

ok let me put it another way,

if the universe was never created and has always just 'been' then wouldn't that eventually equate to "nothing created the universe"

12/22/2008 10:35:47 PM

^^Right.

I've never heard an Atheist, when approached about why they don't believe in God, say, "Well... I... I don't have a reason. I just don't!"

Quote :

"ok let me put it another way, if the universe was never created and has always just 'been' then wouldn't that eventually equate to "nothing created the universe""

I'm going to say something. And this, after I say it, does in no way allow for the existence of a god:

We don't know the answer yet.

Despite what you may think, there are many things that we just don't know yet. This is what makes the natural world so damn interesting. This, despite what your preacher would tell you, does not mean that when you don't know the "Why" it's acceptable to say that "God did it."

400 years ago, we didn't know what lightning was. That doesn't mean that God did it.

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 10:38 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2008 10:36:28 PM

^^ that, essentially, I think, is why agnosticism > atheism

atheists kind of back themselves in to a corner against the type of argument.

12/22/2008 10:38:31 PM

I don't believe an atheist exists under moron's definition then. anyway back on topic?

12/22/2008 10:39:31 PM

^ huh? what definition?

I was saying that just because someone calls themselves an atheist, doesn't mean they are one. Just like someone can think they're a republican, but once you evaluate their beliefs, they could be something else.

12/22/2008 10:41:25 PM

I don't think you understand what I'm saying, moron.

If you asked me this question:

"Do you believe God exists?"

A. Yes
B. No
C. I don't know

I would answer B. I believe the answer is No.

Try answering these questions:

"Do you believe aliens have landed on earth?"

A. Yes
B. No
C. I don't know

"Do you believe ghosts exist?"

A. Yes
B. No
C. I don't know

"Do you believe in telekenesis?"

A. Yes
B. No
C. I don't know

Did you answer "No" for any of those? Because I can guarantee that you can't be 100% sure of the answer to any of them. Does that mean that your answer of "No" is misguided? Does that mean someone is actually "agnostic" about the existence of ghosts?

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 10:47 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2008 10:46:42 PM

^^Your definition of an atheist is one that would deny the existence of a god even if logic and reason were to strongly suggest that there was a god. Such an atheist most is a figment of inflamed religious minds who think that people who don't believe in a god are just as willing to ignore reason as they are.

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 10:50 PM. Reason : ^^]

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 10:50 PM. Reason : I screwed that up.]

12/22/2008 10:49:20 PM

^

Yes, because once they say "SEE?! YOU'RE JUST AS CRAZY AS WE ARE!" they can then attempt to dismiss the rest of their argument.

"Sheesh, he's so close-minded he won't even accept the idea of Jesus... "

12/22/2008 10:50:55 PM

I see this being tied up by another page of semantic BS. If moron cannot agree with your definitions of atheist and agnostic, leave him out.

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 10:54 PM. Reason : .]

12/22/2008 10:51:14 PM

Quote :

"If you asked me this question: "Do you believe God exists?" A. Yes B. No C. I don't know I would answer B. I believe the answer is No. "

That doesn't really mean you're an atheist, particularly because you used big-"G" God there, which implies one particular god of some particular faith.

Just because I don't believe Zeus actually existed, for example, doesn't make me an atheist.

Even if you said you don't believe ANY "God" of any faith/belief, you STILL wouldn't be an atheist. You have to believe the idea of a "god", in any incarnation, doesn't exist to be an atheist.

^ i've only read the past few posts of this page, where did we define atheist?

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 10:57 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2008 10:55:11 PM

We have gone completely off topic. If it makes it any easier insert agnostic or atheist in the original post according to your pleasure.

12/22/2008 10:57:47 PM

Then what exactly does "believe" mean then, guys.

How are we suppose to know that when you believe there is no god that you really mean you think there is no god but are not 100% assured.

I get the "think" part but the "not 100% assured" part is making you look like an agnostic. I'm not trying to 'turn' anybody here, i'm just trying to understand the logic.

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 11:01 PM. Reason : .]

12/22/2008 10:58:40 PM

^you should just read the wikipedia on the issue if you really care. They address all of the things people are getting hung up on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Quote :

" Atheism is most contrasted with agnosticism when the definition of atheism used is the assertion that deities do not exist. However, the two positions are compatible for those atheists who do not assert any knowledge of the non-existence of deities, and some nontheists self-identify as agnostic atheists[citation needed]. The allocation of agnosticism to atheism is disputed; it can also be regarded as an independent philosophical view.[citation needed] Others in turn advocate that it lies within the realm of atheism.[30]"

So, it's not universal what people mean when they say "atheist" or "agnostic," but it is clear what adder and god mean when they use those terms. You should just use what they say they mean.

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 11:02 PM. Reason : .]

12/22/2008 11:00:55 PM

Quote :

"How are we suppose to know that when you believe there is no god that you really mean you think there is no god but are not 100% assured. I get the "think" part but the "not 100% assured" part is making you look like an agnostic. I'm trying to 'turn' anybody here, i'm just trying to understand the logic. "

That is what this threads are for

For you to determine whether you're thinking correctly or not...

12/22/2008 11:02:02 PM

[Edited on December 22, 2008 at 11:11 PM. Reason : ]

12/22/2008 11:10:59 PM

I get that this thread has basically degenerated into yet another argument as to the definition of atheism, but let me just reiterate:

1) The concept that atheists are the most discriminated against minority, or are even among the top bracket of discriminated against minorities, is absolutely ludicrous. Any time someone has rounded up and killed atheists for their atheism, they've rounded up and killed religious people for their religions. Come to think of it, I seem to recall a couple of really well-thought out states that embraced atheism and went to great lengths to suppress non-atheism. You're no worse off than the rest of us.

As for this country? Boo-hoo, you have to say "under God" in elementary school. Except, last I checked, you don't have to say that anymore. "Oh but mommy the other kids will make fun of me if I don't say it!" Give me a fucking break. The other kids are going to make fun of you for something, no matter what religion you are.

2) Willy Nilly, in yet another display of brilliance, has demonstrated his belief that apparently we're going to, at the very least, alternate minority/disadvantaged class Presidents for the next few decades. He also thinks that atheists rank below child molesters in terms of American opinion, which is why atheists go to prison and get killed because the other inmates think their crimes are so heinous.

12/23/2008 12:53:08 AM

Quote :

"The concept that atheists are the most discriminated against minority, or are even among the top bracket of discriminated against minorities, is absolutely ludicrous"

12/23/2008 1:08:40 AM

I grew up in a very religious home. I considered myself a Christian. I really tried to believe in God. I really did. I did everything in my power to convince myself that the Christian God was the real God, and that what the bible said was true. So, if I'm judged by God when I die, I'll just be honest. "You gave me superior reasoning skills, but you didn't provide enough evidence to prove, or even hint at your existence. You, in all of your genius, gave man a brain that was capable of figuring out a ridiculous amount through logic and experience alone. You designed a world where our ability to use logic would be necessary for our survival. And yet, for the only thing that really ended up mattering in that life - being a Christian - you left it up to faith. The closest thing to proof that you gave us was the bible - a book of questionable authenticity. And, despite my best efforts, my brain would not allow me to believe that Christianity - or any other religion - was any more likely to be true than a religion I could make up on my own."

The fact is, you could replace the names and places of any religion, and teach it to an isolated group of people for their entire lives. They'd believe it just the same as if it was a real religion. There's no proof. There's no "relationship with God." There's only willful delusion. I've realized that, for that reason, there's no arguing with religious types. There's no point - which is why I have remained a closet atheist in most parts of my life, and will probably stay that way. I'll play along with the rituals, because I know how important it is to people. Sometimes, it's just not worth being "the atheist."

12/23/2008 5:31:37 AM

tww is not a blog

12/23/2008 5:42:40 AM

Quote :

"Any time someone has rounded up and killed atheists for their atheism, they've rounded up and killed religious people for their religions. Come to think of it, I seem to recall a couple of really well-thought out states that embraced atheism and went to great lengths to suppress non-atheism. You're no worse off than the rest of us. "

This is true. However whenever there is an atheist protest of an established christian people dismiss it. "silly atheists why don't they leave us alone" but if the same critique came from a religious denomination they wouldn't be so dismissive. "Well I guess they have a right to their beliefs too and in a public place there needs to be fair representation". Just because I don't believe in a god doesn't mean I think I should sit down and shut up when I see people being willfully ignorant. What brought this all to light was protests by atheists of nativity scenes in public places. They are laughed at for protesting these things while if a protest comes from another religions viewpoint it is acknowledged.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 8:18 AM. Reason : however]

12/23/2008 8:12:57 AM

Quote :

"As for this country? Boo-hoo, you have to say "under God" in elementary school. Except, last I checked, you don't have to say that anymore. "Oh but mommy the other kids will make fun of me if I don't say it!" Give me a fucking break. The other kids are going to make fun of you for something, no matter what religion you are."

And what a great thing to have in a (supposed) secular nation, right?

12/23/2008 8:33:20 AM

and even in his post there is derision for the crazy atheist/agnostics wanting to get rid of them. GOP just proved my point further.

12/23/2008 8:45:26 AM

I guess my problem with atheists is I don't get why they even care about nativity scenes in public places. I mean, I understand why they care but what's the point of protesting it? You can't have everything in the world the way you want it to be so you're just going to have to deal with some things.

Believe or don't believe whatever you want, I just don't get why you have to protest and ruin something else that has nothing to do with you, and something so small. I mean, a nativity scene in public? Does it really bother you that much?


And for the record, I think Christian groups that protest at certain movies or places are just as stupid. If you don't like a movie, don't go see it. If you don't like a nativity scene in public, ignore it.

12/23/2008 8:54:32 AM

Quote :

"They are laughed at for protesting these things while if a protest comes from another religions viewpoint it is acknowledged. "

I don't know, I seem to recall most of the country laughing at the christians flipping a shit over "passion of the christ" (for that matter, same with the jews who flipped a shit).

Recently there was the jewish mom who fought the wake county school over "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer", I'm fairly certain that (aside from the school board) her concerns were dismissed and ridiculed by the people at large.

I don't think it that atheists are picked on more so than other crazy religious people, it's that atheists seem to pick things specifically designed to piss people off and get national attention.

12/23/2008 9:04:24 AM

Quote :

"So, it's not universal what people mean when they say "atheist" or "agnostic," but it is clear what adder and god mean when they use those terms. You should just use what they say they mean."

There are agnostic atheist and agnostic theist. "Agnostic" is a stance in the realm of knowledge, it is not a religious viewpoint per se. Furthermore atheist can be further classified into strong (god does not exist) and weak (any other type of nontheism) athiests, just like like there different types of theist (monotheist, polytheist, etc).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 9:30 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2008 9:06:04 AM

Quote :

"I guess my problem with atheists is I don't get why they even care about nativity scenes in public places. I mean, I understand why they care but what's the point of protesting it?"

I bet they'd prefer that the state NOT sponsor any religion. Trying to put religious symbols on public or government property is not innocent; I know that the point of the crosses and nativity scenes and whatnot is to try to push religion onto non-believing heathens. Using my tax dollars to witness, or witnessing on public property is laughable.

That being said, I also think it's silly for an atheist to spend any time trying to convince anyone of anything. The only motivation I think they would have is because they feel threatened because religious ass-hats try to sidle their crap into our schools and our courthouses.

12/23/2008 9:34:37 AM

^

Quote :

"What brought this all to light was protests by atheists of nativity scenes in public places. They are laughed at for protesting these things while if a protest comes from another religions viewpoint it is acknowledged. "

I was responding to this. I guess I should've asked for more details. Where was it? Who put it up? How big was it? How "official" was it?

12/23/2008 9:47:24 AM

Transsexual Nazi Eskimos are obviously the most discriminated minority group.

12/23/2008 9:49:24 AM

Disco stu hit the nail on the head. The nativity scene in question was on public property and an atheist organization put up a plaque expressing their viewpoint on the holiday and how it should be celebrated. The plaque had to be covered in plexiglass because in the past people threw acid on it and destroyed. Imagine the complaints if I went and started throwing acid on all the christian bullshit in public places. I would probably be killed. Just because my viewpoint is that god doesn't exist doesn't make my position any less worthy of protection than the viewpoint that my god is different from your god. From the viewpoint of an atheist/agnostic religion is responsible for huge injustices and holding back human advancement so I do object to the government being steeped in it.

12/23/2008 10:26:56 AM

^^ hell, they'd discriminate against themselves!

Quote :

"And what a great thing to have in a (supposed) secular nation, right? "

I think you missed his point, which was that if things like that are the biggest fish you have to fry, or if they even make a blip on your RADAR, you are not the most discriminated against.



and I'm pretty much with d357r0y3r. I have no quarrel with the idea of God--if you believe in Him, good for you. I don't have any belief against God..I just flat-out don't know. In some ways, I think it's quite plausible, but certainly not to the point of really knowing. Furthermore, even if I became convinved that God exists, how would I know that it's the Christian God, and how would I know that Christianity is the proper set of beliefs (beyond having picked the correct God)? I'm not anti-God--in fact, I'd like to believe--but I don't see enough evidence either way to sway me beyond the level of being indifferent and apathetic.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 10:40 AM. Reason : asdfasd]

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 10:43 AM. Reason : Hell, I even go to church every once in a while...I'm a Christian-friendly agnostic.]

12/23/2008 10:30:58 AM

Every time a political figure mentions god in some stupid speech it is an affront to all atheists in the nation. Political attacks are even based on accusing people of being atheist. The response isn't so what if I am, it is NO WAY i am not an atheist how dare you accuse me of something so heinous.

12/23/2008 10:39:24 AM

Well, it seems like that response is the fault of the atheist politician in question for being a huge pussy and/or a hypocrite.

and i can't think of any political attacks regarding atheism, anyway.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 10:45 AM. Reason : so again, probably not the most discriminated against group.]

12/23/2008 10:45:13 AM

Quote :

"The nativity scene in question was on public property and an atheist organization put up a plaque expressing their viewpoint on the holiday and how it should be celebrated."

Oh okay, that explains it. You're referring to that stupid plaque we already discussed in the Festivus thread...

12/23/2008 10:47:54 AM

lol, joe....
You put forward a defintion. Perhaps not a quote from a dictionary, but still.

Quote :

""theism" literally means "a belief in gods". "a" is the prefix meaning "without"... now let's put the two together: "atheism" = "without a belief in gods"."

Then I, trying to point out that words don't always work logically (with prefixes, etc.,) quoted someone else's dictionary quote from an earlier post:

Quote :

"Really? The dictionary says "atheism" = "one who believes that there is no deity". (As if whatever you or the dictionary says matters. Words are imperfect symbols)"

Then you apparently realized that your "strong atheism" is my atheism, and your "weak atheism" is my "agnostic" or "agnostic atheist".

Quote :

"Ok. then we're in agreement, and just arguing semantics."

Then you seemed to forget what just occurred, reintroduced your definition, and insulted me for allegedly having to use
"google dictionary entries for philosophical constructs",....

Quote :

"if you have to google dictionary entries for philosophical constructs, you're not going to do very well."

....when in fact, not only was I not quoting a dictionary, (but rather someone else's dictionary quote,) I was making the point that dictionary definitions aren't good points, when I did it. Did you not see where I said "As if whatever you or the dictionary says matters. Words are imperfect symbols"?
lol.

Quote :

"The slapfight is getting hung up on whether atheists a) believe in the most probable explanation for things or b) whether atheists say without qualification that there cannot be a god I don't know any atheist of type b, and I suspect it is a strawman. Every atheist I know is of type a, where they don't believe in a god because there simply is no good reason to do so."

Type a are agnostic atheists, aka agnostics. Type b are faith-based atheists ("real" atheists). Many people who are one type incorrectly label themselves the other. Also, while type b may be a strawman that monotheists (whom think all atheists are type a) use to attack the type a people, there are actually type b people. They are a minority and are upset over agnostic atheists (a type of non-theist,) claiming the general term "atheist" as their own. They are not real atheists. (like me)

Quote :

"If you asked me this question: "Do you believe God exists?" A. Yes B. No C. I don't know I would answer B. I believe the answer is No. Try answering these questions: "Do you believe aliens have landed on earth?" A. Yes B. No C. I don't know "Do you believe ghosts exist?" A. Yes B. No C. I don't know "Do you believe in telekenesis?" A. Yes B. No C. I don't know Did you answer "No" for any of those? Because I can guarantee that you can't be 100% sure of the answer to any of them. Does that mean that your answer of "No" is misguided? Does that mean someone is actually "agnostic" about the existence of ghosts?"

If you aren't 100% sure, and you still answer 'no', then yes, the answer is misguided. Yes, someone can be actually "agnostic" about the existence of ghosts. Agnostic is in the realm of knowledge, not faith. The term "believe" is misleading, because it is used both in the realm of knowledge ("I believe that this apple will fall when I drop it.") as well as in the realm of faith ("I believe that angels heard my prayer.") I avoid using the word belief.

How about:
"How many gods exists?"
A. 0
B. 1
C. 2 (or more)
D. I don't know
E. I can't know

I would answer A. I believe the answer is 0. How would you answer?

Try answering these questions:
"How many aliens have landed on Earth?"
A. 0
B. 1
C. 2 (or more)
D. I don't know
E. I can't know

"How many ghosts exist?"
A. 0
B. 1
C. 2 (or more)
D. I don't know
E. I can't know

"How many times has telekinesis occurred?"
A. 0
B. 1
C. 2 (or more)
D. I don't know
E. I can't know

Quote :

"I guess my problem with atheists is I don't get why they even care about nativity scenes in public places. I mean, I understand why they care but what's the point of protesting it? You can't have everything in the world the way you want it to be so you're just going to have to deal with some things. Believe or don't believe whatever you want, I just don't get why you have to protest and ruin something else that has nothing to do with you, and something so small. I mean, a nativity scene in public? Does it really bother you that much?"

I agree with:

Quote :

"I bet they'd prefer that the state NOT sponsor any religion. Trying to put religious symbols on public [aka] government property is not innocent; I know that the point of the crosses and nativity scenes and whatnot is to try to push religion onto non-believing heathens. Using my tax dollars to witness, or witnessing on public property is laughable."

Quote :

"...it's that atheists seem to pick things specifically designed to piss people off and get national attention."

Perhaps they are tired of being marginalized. Try being hated and ignored by everyone while resisting the urge to speak out and call attention to the issue, regardless if doing so pisses people off.

Quote :

"There are agnostic atheist and agnostic theist. "Agnostic" is a stance in the realm of knowledge, it is not a religious viewpoint per se. Furthermore atheist can be further classified into strong (god does not exist) and weak (any other type of nontheism) athiests, just like like there different types of theist (monotheist, polytheist, etc"

The non-agnostic atheist (aka "strong atheist",) should be grouped together with non-agnostic monotheists and non-agnostic polytheists. They are all outside of the realm of knowledge -- they are all faith-based. Agnostic atheists, (I simply call them agnostics,) and all other non-theists are inside the realm of knowledge -- they are logic-based.

Quote :

"That being said, I also think it's silly for an atheist to spend any time trying to convince anyone of anything. The only motivation I think they would have is because they feel threatened because religious ass-hats try to sidle their crap into our schools and our courthouses."

...and our money.

Quote :

"you are not the most discriminated against"

OK, fine. So the OP overstated things a bit. Do we now ignore the real plight of atheist and agnostics?

Quote :

"Every time a political figure mentions god in some stupid speech it is an affront to all atheists in the nation."

I agree. When I hear a political figure, or anyone holding public office, say the word "god", (and not in the context of referring to the word, as I just did,) I interpret it as a clear endorsement, by government, of a particular set of religions. The fact that most americans don't reject this unconstitutional bullshit (courtroom ten commandments, swearing on the bible, god on our money, prayer or creationism in the public schools, etc.), is truly sad.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 11:13 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2008 10:52:02 AM

^^^ Elizabeth dole! Duh

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 10:52 AM. Reason : For duke]

12/23/2008 10:52:18 AM

^
Dole's stunt shows that the republican party is aware of and knowingly uses propaganda on a significant portion of their "base" who are bigoted against atheists. (yeah, big surprise: many, if not most republicans are bigots of one type or another.)

It was only after this that much of my family finally accepted the reality of atheist oppression.

12/23/2008 11:05:54 AM

The atheists that get their panties in a wad and actually have a plaque put up make me laugh.
"We don't want your religious display, so instead we'll demand that we put up one of our own!"

Actually, I don't have a problem with nativity scenes or crosses or whatever. I just ignore the shit. Our government is spending a lot more money doing things I have a bigger issue with.

This is seriously not worth worrying over, and atheists are definitely not discriminated against any more than any other minority.

12/23/2008 11:09:25 AM

I might have over stated the plight in the original post but I still think that in this country atheists are the most pc group to belittle. Even in this thread it is going on. It will be interesting to understand from which group different responses are coming from maybe we should include our faith with our responses?

(I am obviously an atheist)

^At least when the radicals were accusing obama of being a muslim there were people who were indignant and said so what if he is? Didn't really happen with the dole attack. In this country people are taught to live in constant fear of belittling another race or religion but they don't worry about that as far as atheists are concerned.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 11:13 AM. Reason : for disco]

12/23/2008 11:10:56 AM

Quote :

"Didn't really happen with the dole attack."

Did you miss the part where she lost the election?

12/23/2008 11:20:49 AM

^
He's saying that people didn't speak up in defense, as occurred with the muslim comments.
Dole lost for other reasons than that.

Quote :

"This is seriously not worth worrying over"

Seriously, you're wrong.

Quote :

"[Atheists] are the last minority that it's still socially acceptable to shit all over without any repercussions"

Quote :

"atheists are the most pc group to belittle"

It's like religions take a break from fighting each other so that they can join together to fight atheists.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 11:33 AM. Reason : ]

12/23/2008 11:24:24 AM

Quote :

"He's saying that people didn't speak up in defense, as occurred with the muslim comments. Dole lost for other reasons than that."

They spoke up with their votes. She ran a really bad campaign other than just that, but that was the key moment where it was over.

If what the OP is saying was actually true, Dole would've won with the strategy of associating Hagan with atheists, if it's really so acceptable to discriminate against them.

12/23/2008 11:36:21 AM

dude, I'm agnostic, myself

and I lean pretty strongly libertarian in my personal politics

and I really can't stand it when the religious right makes rules and laws based on their religion that infringe on other people

and I wouldn't want any additional stuff like this added, but In God We Trust, swearing Presidents in on the Bible, 10 Commandments in courtrooms, etc, really don't bother me at all. In fact, I get more agitated by people who push to get rid of these things than I do by the fact that they're in place. Fucking live and let live.

[Edited on December 23, 2008 at 11:38 AM. Reason : ^ yeah, terrible example. Seems like the side attacking Obama for alleged Muslimity lost, too...]

12/23/2008 11:36:36 AM

I can't get mad at the people trying to correct what the religious screwed up, but I have no hope of it ever being corrected, and I'm not joining their fight because of the chaos fixing those things would create. I can't even begin to imagine the shitstorm that would be created if "God" was taken off money/out of the pledge/etc.

12/23/2008 11:39:03 AM

Quote :

"I'm not even the stereotypical agnostic in the sense I accept my own spiritual inclinations of deism in conjuction with my stance in agnosticism as the only logical position."

This is my stance as well. As I've said before, the only logical position on God is to remain uncertain. Certainty requires faith. Uncertainty is Agnosticism. This should be quite clear.

I agree that Atheists are very discriminated against and will continue to be. They are obviously rejected by religious folk who find them to be attention-seeking naysayers, and they are equally rejected by the intellectual community for their faith-based assertion of God(s) not existing. The only rational approach to God is uncertainty. Anything else is simply crazy.

12/23/2008 12:04:39 PM

Quote :

"I can't even begin to imagine the shitstorm constitutionality that would be created if "God" was taken off money/out of the pledge/etc."

Yeah, bigots usually aren't too happy when you stop them from doing their thing.

12/23/2008 12:05:51 PM

^^^^

will the people in the marines get all evangelical and up in your face about God

I would imagine that the over all temper would be to not be a dick and rock the boat, either way

12/23/2008 12:07:22 PM

I just found something pretty fucking sad. It reeks of parody, but I think it's real.
http://deludedmailbag.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

12/23/2008 12:17:21 PM

Keep seeing the atheist crusaders in this thread referring to "logic and reason." How many of you chucklefucks know what the hell you're talking about? Even a little bit?

Let's break it down.

LOGIC: How many of the people in this thread crowing about LOGIC can do the following:
* Prove soundness and completeness of propositional logic.
* Prove compactness of propositional logic.
* Prove soundness and completeness of predicate logic.
* Prove compactness of predicate logic, and the upward and downward Loewenheim-Skolem theorems.

That's all shit you'd learn in an elementary class on the subject.

REASON: How many of the people in this thread crowing about REASON have done the following:
* Studied Hume in detail.
* Learned some Decision Theory.
* Learned some Game Theory.
* Extensively read philosophy of science and discussion on the problem of induction.
* Know what the fuck a Wald Test is
* Know what the fuck a Chi-Squared Test is
* Knows any statistics whatsoever besides how to calculate a mean

In conclusion, to my atheist friends: shut the fuck up until you've something other than Dawkins.

[/thread]

12/23/2008 12:19:47 PM

I know about the Easter Bunny and why he's a silly proposition.

He didn't bring me those baskets with plastic grass. My parents did, AND LIED TO ME ABOUT IT.

But seriously, you can you know so many impressive words and still be so very stupid?

12/23/2008 12:22:35 PM