i have been using banfield at pet smart and have really liked it so far

1/10/2009 2:29:00 PM

Quote :

"Yes, high quality foods will make dogs get fat. You would be surprised at how many owners keep feeding the same amount upon switching to a 'premium' food."

That's a stupid owner problem, and NOT a problem with better food!

Do you also suggest that all people eat shitty frozen dinners their whole life, because eating too much real food might make them fat? The lack of logic is amazing.

1/10/2009 2:32:27 PM

Obviously, as with people, if you feed them too much they will get fat. Eat too much beef, you and your dog will get fat. Duh.

1/10/2009 2:34:50 PM

Yes, but you can feed the right amount of nutrition WITHOUT the use of shitty fillers. Dagreenone can not comprehend this.

1/10/2009 2:36:19 PM

^^
Simple concept.

Lewoods doesn't comprehend that dogs do not need to be on high fat and high protein diets.


[Edited on January 10, 2009 at 2:44 PM. Reason : calorie intake is key.]

1/10/2009 2:36:33 PM

Dogs do not need carbs! They can live their whole life without them, and are better for it. They are carnivores. They are not made to eat grass and grains. If you don't believe me, just open a dog's mouth and tell me if those teeth are made for meat or grazing.

Commercial kibble has only been popular for maybe 50 years. That is not enough time for a dog to evolve to thrive on our waste products (and that's all most kibbles are, they sucker you into paying for crap they'd have to otherwise throw away because it's unfit for human consumption).

You are really fucking stupid if you think that dogs should be on a high carb diet. Their whole body is not designed for it. But if you work for a vet you will push nasty shit like science diet on people, because it will make their animals sick so more money for you.

1/10/2009 5:29:19 PM

^I mostly agree, but even carnivores require some roughage, usually they get it from eating their prey's stomach contents though.

1/10/2009 6:59:55 PM

Yup, and the stomach contents are partially digested. That way the dog has some hope of getting some nutrition out of it, but it's nothing compared to the huge amount of carbs in kibble.

I know a couple people that feed raw and don't add veggies, the dogs do just fine. High quality roughage (blender full of veggies) isn't anything like what's in kibble either.

1/10/2009 7:48:59 PM

^I feed Dakota raw and she is absolutely thriving. No veggies, no supplements (aside from fish oil). Just meat, organs, and bone.

1/10/2009 8:21:51 PM

every now and then i throw some romaine hearts, tomato or banana in my dogs bowl. nothing wrong with that right?

1/10/2009 9:25:34 PM

^^^We can argue back and forth all day long on nutrition. If you believe that dogs are better off without any carbs what so ever, that's fine. Dr. Atkins said the same thing, look how that is working out. However, as long as your dog is healthy and happy that is what matters. As passionate as you make your case, it sounds that way.

^^ I love your photography

^ I've given my dog a piece of banana on occasion. No harm done.

1/10/2009 9:32:23 PM

thank you!

1/10/2009 9:39:57 PM

Vets in the area that I like:

Oberlin - Dr. Wages. Where I take my three dogs. No complaints. I find them reasonably priced. Not the cheapest but not the most expensive. I know many technicians there and trust them with my animals.

Crossroads- where my fosters went. No complaints. Reasonably priced.

North Wake - cheaper. Set up as a clinic. No need to make appointments (except surgeries). Mixed reviews from other people... I've taken rescues there and they were very reasonably priced and took good care of the puppies.

There are ways to save money such as going to Rabies clinics, microchip clinics, spay/neuter vouchers, etc...

I compare prices online for preventative meds such as frontline/heartguard. Much cheaper than buying at your vet!!!
My animals have been on heartguard (I actually prefer interceptor) since they were pups so I only have the heartworm test done every 3 three years.

1/11/2009 11:13:57 AM

Dogs are omnivores... obviously they lean more towards meats than we do, but they do need some carbohydrates and roughage.

http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf

1/11/2009 11:40:04 AM

I buy ivomec (0.2% swine solution, way easier to measure out a dose than the 1% for cattle) instead of heartgard. As a bonus it's great for treating ear mites too. I started when the parents' cat refused to eat the heartgard, squirting liquid in his mouth was easier than giving him a pill and I'd just let it soak into some bread and the dog downed it fine. Need to get some from my parents for Monster, esp. since I plan on leash training her.

1/11/2009 1:30:25 PM

Smath, you reference a guide for pet owners?

Adding some sweet and white taters or rice can be good for a dog with a super sensitive stomach, but most can survive fine without them. The low carb diet is even more important for cats, they are obligate carnivores where as dogs are just carnivores (they are designed to eat meat, but can survive off other stuff if they have to). Saying a dog is an omnivore is just silly if you look at the differences between their digestive system and ours.

1/11/2009 1:34:21 PM

i linked to the first thing google came up with. do some research yourself. everything i have read has mentioned that dogs are omnivores. (obviously leaning more towards meat than us, but omnivores none the less.)

1/11/2009 2:56:20 PM

That's the thing, I HAVE done the research and dogs are carnivores. Vet continuing ed seminars, books, etc. I'm not just pulling some shit out my ass (or in your case google).

Omnivores just do not have the same teeth that dogs do. Hell, the teeth made for tearing flesh are called canines!

1/11/2009 5:34:22 PM

The hell are you talking about this time? You are the only person on the planet who will say dogs are carnivores. Open up any textbook you want and that is what they will be listed under. Omnivore.

Want to play the teeth game?

1/11/2009 5:45:07 PM

Dogs are omnivores and cats are considered carnivores...just had nutrition last spring in vet. school. But dogs do need both protein and carbs in diet just in different amounts and I don't really feel like going into all of that right now and how to calc. out diets for dogs.

[Edited on January 11, 2009 at 6:04 PM. Reason : can't spell tonight]

1/11/2009 6:01:47 PM

Thank you Stephanie

1/11/2009 6:44:09 PM

Fine, listen to the pet food companies peddling their waste products. Ignore the generations of much healthier raw fed dogs.

1/11/2009 6:45:55 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

Quote :

"Diet Nutrition Despite descending from wolves, the domestic dog is classified as an omnivore[9]. The classification in the Order Carnivora does not necessarily mean that a dog's diet must be restricted to meat; unlike an obligate carnivore, such as the cat family with its shorter small intestine, a dog is neither dependent on meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill its basic dietary requirements. Dogs are able to healthily digest a variety of foods including vegetables and grains, and in fact dogs can consume a large proportion of these in their diet. In the wild, canines often eat available plants and fruits[9]."

As we all know, however, Wikipedia has long been in the back pockets of Big Pet Food...

1/11/2009 7:01:17 PM

Ginny Brown @ Dixie Trail Animal Clinic. No nonsense and no stupid markups.

1/11/2009 7:09:28 PM

I'm a fan of Dr. Ansede at Ansede Animal Hospital in Garner (off of Tryon and Wilmington). I started going there because my old roommate works for them - but they have been fantastic. Reasonable prices, talk things over with you, and really take care of your pets. I had to board my dog for a week, and was concerned with leaving him for that long. But - when I went to pick him up, everyone talked about how great he was and he how much they loved him/enjoyed playing with him etc.

1/11/2009 9:04:25 PM

Quote :

"If you think corn is bad then no wonder you are having trouble finding "quality" food."

Last I checked, cats aren't in the habit of eating corn in the wild

1/11/2009 10:51:00 PM

Quote :

"Fine, listen to the pet food companies peddling their waste products. Ignore the generations of much healthier raw fed dogs."

yes, the pet food companies are in the pockets of every peer reviewed journal article on the topic.
jesus you are a loon.

1/11/2009 10:51:06 PM

^^ lol. Your post never mentioned a cat. I never knew PurinaONE also had a cat food, so I just naturally assumed dog food. But now I know.

My B.

1/11/2009 10:57:07 PM

lol, yeah I realized I never mentioned species in my post.



No veggies for me kthx

1/11/2009 11:00:29 PM

Quote :

"yes, the pet food companies are in the pockets of every peer reviewed journal article on the topic. jesus you are a loon."

Yes, just go to any vet school and you will see the pet food companies handing out free shit, it's as bad as drug companies.

Making the leap from a dog maybe eating stomach contents and fruit in the wild to highly processed modern grains in kibble being good for them makes YOU the loon.

Here's the deal. We are made to handle a lot more vegetation than dogs. YOU try going on a grain free or low grain diet and I guarantee you that you will feel a whole lot better. Now for a species that is made to handle low/no carbs (cat or dog) the change will be even more dramatic. Honestly, unless you have personally tried a grain free diet you should not knock it. I'd be happy if most people realized this and started to feed grain free kibble, I'm not even expecting people to give a shit enough to feed raw, the healthiest way for a dog.

When you see "corn" on dog food labels you think about the stuff you eat. That is not what goes into pet food. They get the stuff that gets moldy before it can be turned into human food, the cobs, and the leftovers.

1/11/2009 11:33:28 PM

Yeah the animal byproduct is the same way. I used to work for a lab where the animals we euthanized after experimentation were sold to a pet food company. Nothing wrong with the meat per se but they basically ground up everything into a meal which I'm sure wasn't high quality

1/11/2009 11:56:44 PM

^^ So basically, they get the stuff that they eat anyway.

1/12/2009 8:24:35 AM

North Wake Animal Hospital -- Dr. Darch
north raleigh/wake forest

1/12/2009 10:53:31 AM

Quote :

"^^ So basically, they get the stuff that they eat anyway."

No. Leftovers from your meal are still fresh, nutritious, and do not contain toxic chemicals. anything that is not dangerous WILL be used to make human food, that's how companies make profits. All the dangerous stuff that they'd otherwise have to pay a landfill to take, they make into pet food. Don't think for a minute dog food has fresh chicken breasts that are pictured on the package. They get the chickens that die from infections or cancer, the parts humans won't eat (intestines, etc.), and the stuff that was in the freezer when it quit working and everything went bad.

Then there's the meat by-products that includes lab animals, dead horses (lots of euthanasia solution), downer cows, etc. If you take a really good look into what goes into pet food, you will end up feeding something with human grade ingredients, and probably grain free.

1/12/2009 11:24:26 AM

so my point that dogs are omnivores and not strict carnivores goes unchallenged. I win.

1/12/2009 11:31:10 AM

Fine, you can call them purple spotted dragons for all I care if you agree they are not made to eat grains, and are better off without them. And I bet you have NO experience with a grain free diet, so you can not claim dogs needs grain.

I win.

1/12/2009 11:54:41 AM

Quote :

"No. Leftovers from your meal are still fresh, nutritious, and do not contain toxic chemicals. anything that is not dangerous WILL be used to make human food, that's how companies make profits. All the dangerous stuff that they'd otherwise have to pay a landfill to take, they make into pet food. Don't think for a minute dog food has fresh chicken breasts that are pictured on the package. They get the chickens that die from infections or cancer, the parts humans won't eat (intestines, etc.), and the stuff that was in the freezer when it quit working and everything went bad. Then there's the meat by-products that includes lab animals, dead horses (lots of euthanasia solution), downer cows, etc. If you take a really good look into what goes into pet food, you will end up feeding something with human grade ingredients, and probably grain free. "

It's people. Soylent Green is made out of people. !!1!11


^^ She can't admit that, because it will unravel her whole conspiracy. Once she admits they are omnivores, it will invalidate her entire strict meat only diet.

1/12/2009 2:42:11 PM

^^^^ So again, the stuff they eat anyway. I mean, I don't know about you, but I haven't known a dog who hasn't either eaten something out of the trash, or part of a live animal (squirrel, possum etc) or their own (or someone else's) crap. So intestines that humans won't eat (BTW, have you ever had a hot dog?), livers kidneys, bones, dead horses (as opposed to dead chickens?) don't phase me or my dog (ok, they phase her in the allergy sense, but that's besides the point).

1/12/2009 8:14:40 PM

I don't think she's trying to argue that dog's should be on a strict PROTEIN diet. But rather that a dog should not be on a high GRAIN diet, nor should it's primary protein source come from a plant (i.e. Soybean). The point isn't whether dogs are omnivores or true carnivores (which lewoods hasn't stated they are true carnivores. No one can really argue that if given the choice between a nice juicy steak and a carrot your dog would choose the carrot...) The point is that the traditional dog food diets that are manufactured by mainstream companies (Iams, Purina, Science Diet etc) do not provide high quality nutrition to your pets. There are companies out there that have found a way to do it better at a reasonable price (check out natura). Companies that are not willing to put the health of your cat or dog at risk for the sake of saving a buck on far less than stellar ingredients. Why would you dispute that this is where we should be investing our money when it comes to keeping our pets healthy? Pet food is something our dogs will be consuming multiple times a day, every day for the rest of their lives...it should be biologically appropriate!

1/13/2009 1:44:39 PM

Thank you, at least someone gets it!

My dog would only eat carrots by accident, if we hid them in gravy.

1/13/2009 3:01:24 PM

Quote :

"dead horses (lots of euthanasia solution)"

Not to jump off topic, but uh, I'd say not really with the euthanasia comment. If horses are brought to slaughter, they aren't using euthanasia. About the only horses that get put down with that are laying in the ground or are incinerated. Too costly for the slaughterhouses.

Back on topic. Glad my cat doesn't have all these allergies some people's pets do. Whew!

1/13/2009 3:39:59 PM

I'm going to restate my point here that even true carnivores, like cats, need some roughage in their diet. They usually get this from eating the stomach and entrails of their herbivore prey. Dogs ARE considered omnivores (at least by the NC Vet School), they have evolved to be omnivores just as they have evolved to herd sheep instead of kill them. You CANNOT have a healthy dog or cat if you feed exclusively meat or exclusively veggies (like some whackos).

These facts aside, you do not want to feed your pet a food made from dubious meat sources and mostly carbs and gluten, which is what the aforementioned foods are.

Now, I'm wondering how this thread took this nutrition turn. But, you can connect the two themes because if you feed a high quality diet your vet bills will be lower.

1/13/2009 7:23:16 PM

Before this thread continues, there needs to be some facts and definitions cleared up.

1). The definition of a filler is: An ingredient that provides no nutrition and merely fills the space in a food container. This doesn't describe corn because that provides both carbohydrates and proteins (clearly not the best source, but is still about 80% digestible protein.)

2.) The belief that these fillers cause allergies. A simple search will yield that in order of common food allergies starting with the most common are: Beef, dairy products, chicken, wheat, chicken eggs, corn, and soy.

3.) Dogs are omnivorous and a high grain diet is just as bad if not worse that a protein/fat only diet. Nobody in this thread is arguing in favor of HIGH grain amounts.

4.) Pet food companies are massive and crank out loads of dog food. To believe that they just sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for a freezer to go out or a herd of cattle to get infected/cancer so they can have them shipped in from the other side of the country is the complete opposite of cost effective. Is there dead horse and cancerous chicken thrown in? No doubt, but to believe that dog food is nothing but that is ludicrous.

5.) Slaughtered horses and cows are taken out with a big metal rod through the head. To believe they are all pumped with Euthasol solution is just fantasy and plain ignorant.

1/13/2009 9:12:43 PM

Can I bring up an honest question......Is ANYTHING a vet gives a dog really necessary? I mean seriously, rabies?? I live in Cary, is it going to get bit by a bat or infected possum I doubt it....what exactly is a "booster shot" or "annual shot"??

Seems to me the only thing a dog needs is some flea/tick repellant IF it has long hair like a retriever.

People spend hundreds of dollars getting blood tests and poop tests and "doggie physicals" and shots of God knows what....I mean if the poops is hard = good, poop is soft = stop feeding it twinkies.

am I wrong?

1/14/2009 10:09:08 PM

How about you don't get your dog the rabies shot, and then your dog gets in a tussle with another dog at the park, and your dog gets euthanized because it doesn't have its rabies shot.

That's why you should keep your dog up-to-date on rabies

1/14/2009 10:25:20 PM

Rabies vaccine is necessary to protect the dog from animal control chopping off their head.

Otherwise, distemper combo is needed about every 5 to 7 years, every 3 if you dog is exposed to lots of exotic bugs on a frequent basis. Bordatella vaccination is unnecessary for most dogs, it's a bad cough that's easily treated and not likely for your dog to get unless they go to the dog park or other places with lots of dogs on a frequent basis.

Honestly, I'll probably take my cat to the vet and get a rabies vaccine and felv/fiv test (she was living with indoor/outdoor cats before I got here) and that's it. She's not an escape risk, in fact if you open the door she will run up the stairs because she doesn't want to go outside or feel the cold air.

If she didn't get eye infections once in a while and need the test I'd just take her to a rabies vaccine clinic. She had a really bad eye infection as a kitten and somehow it screwed her up and she's gotten them from time to time her whole life, so at some point I'll need to get some antibiotic drops.

1/15/2009 10:34:03 AM

That is what your vet is there for. If you want to know what is necessary, then just ask. You won't believe how many people just sit there and don't say anything. Your vet isn't going to be offended if you want to skip the stool check this year, just speak up and say something. To answer your question most vets will tell you that:

Rabies = necessary
HW prevention = necessary

DHLPP - debatable, wouldn't hurt if it was skipped.

Bordatella - only needed if you board your dog a lot or otherwise have them around packs of dogs for extended periods (grooming, dog parks etc.)
Flea stuff - Fleas don't care about hair length. I only use it when I see fleas. If you read the box of frontline it says the flea part lasts three months, the tick part of the solution is why it needs to be reapplied monthly. Ticks are easy to remove and kind of rare around Raleigh.
Stool checks - Your own discretion, I have it done about every other visit. Firm stool doesn't always equal healthy. My parents dachshunds are very healthy but will occasionally have a round worm or hook worm in the stool check. So its good to check every so often just to be sure.

1/15/2009 12:51:02 PM

^,^^

Thank you. This is the kind of information everyone can benefit from.

If you guys wanna debate canine nutrition, start a tread for it

1/15/2009 2:19:11 PM

I forgot to mention heartworm prevention in my post. It is really important, but I use ivomec so the cost is minimal.

I'm fine with dagreenone agreeing lots of grain = bad. Feed your dog pomegranates, acai berries and whatever other exotic vegetation you want, but they are not designed to deal with grains and they'd be better off getting those calories from fat. Most vet employees and vets are horribly miseducated on the shit they try to pass off as pet food, so sounds like their office might not be quite as bad as most.

1/15/2009 2:30:09 PM

this is the stuff i use (cause my dog does well with it):

http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/PandD.html

got pretty good reviews by that dog food ingredient analysis website

1/15/2009 2:37:30 PM