2

1/28/2009 6:04:01 PM

^^except the US apparently

1/28/2009 7:23:06 PM

is this still going on?

Audi, hands down. It is a professional's car.

1/28/2009 11:00:34 PM

If strictly between those two:
A4 (+ chip after warranty).

New cars are for suckers.
Depreciation is almost Always the safer bet/ way to save money on vehicle ownership than a warranty, ESP for subies and audis, cars with a significant 'evolutionary' relationship to models of several years before, and whose drivetrains are already proven through multiples without TOO much adventurousness in mid-cycle re-engineering.

Having said that, I can't help but give my $.02:
-If you need 4 seats more than you need four doors or a three-box shape to accomodate loads requiring fold-down rear seats (and you're among those who aren't put off by its styling)...go test drive an rx-8... It's the most sprightly car with real seats for four adults. The audi with a chip or the wrx are certainly quicker in standing-start accel, but really not in terms of 'over-the-road' / 'real-world' speed,' which are the typical arguments for subies/ audis over other performance cars. Plus, there's tons of them available for far less than what you'd spend on either of these. Reliability and oil thirst have been issues, but would you rather pay for your transportation in Msrp and post-purchase depreciation or would you rather spend the same or less in the initial cost difference in maintenance costs?

Other intriguing alternatives in light of your selections...
-e39 m5
-a4 AVANT 2.0t
-mini clubman... The longer wheelbase makes for accomodation about equal with an rx8, but with small-wagon load capacity.
-540i
-a3 3.2 v6 (haldex awd audis feel 'friskier' than torsen-audis... I wouldn't have thought so until I drove one... Unfortunately, the 2.0t golfs/jettas/a3s/tts haven't be avail with awd until this year( and even then, I think it might still only be the tt.)
-r32:..
-Gto
-legacy 2.5gt or prev-yen Sti limited...
-s4
-cts-v
-e46 m3
-g8

1/29/2009 9:17:49 AM

Oh, and s60r/v70r as well as all the fwd vws.

[Edited on January 29, 2009 at 9:27 AM. Reason : Changed my mind. ]

1/29/2009 9:22:08 AM

^^reliability is one of his top three requirements and you have an e39 m5 as the first car on your list?

really?

1/29/2009 9:39:42 AM

^touche. scratch the m5. ...
...but just to be anal:

Quote :

" reliable 2 entries found. 1. 1reliable (adjective) 2. 2reliable (noun) Main Entry: 1re·li·able Listen to the pronunciation of 1reliable Pronunciation: \ri-'li-?-b?l\ Function: adjective Date: 1569 1 : suitable or fit to be relied on : dependable 2 : giving the same result on successive trials http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reliable "

...so... you could reliably know that it's going to cost you....

1/29/2009 10:14:09 AM

I really think its worth giving the Mazdaspeed 3 a look, i know mazda isnt the best badge in the world, but its actually a relaly fun car.

1/29/2009 2:28:17 PM

Quote :

"^^reliability is one of his top three requirements and you have an e39 m5 as the first car on your list? really?"

they are not reliable?

1/29/2009 2:36:44 PM

pretty sure most of the people here were talking about

1 : suitable or fit to be relied on : dependable


[Edited on January 29, 2009 at 3:35 PM. Reason : ..]

1/29/2009 3:35:05 PM

Quote :

" they are not reliable?"

well if you got deep enough pockets

but he is asking about a 2007 and a 2009, and is already concerned about the reliability of the audi. do you really think he would want an e39 m5?

1/29/2009 7:03:25 PM

BMW 3 series.

Why does it have to be AWD again?

1/29/2009 7:09:52 PM

because some people drive in inclement weather. And like it or not, RWD is dangerous as shit on snow/ice. Since Mike (Prospero) lives in Denver, CO and I imagine he goes skiing and hiking a good bit, an AWD vehicle is pretty much necessary.

1/29/2009 9:47:19 PM

If you want a BMW get RWD

If you want an Audi get AWD

this is what each of the above manufacturers is best at making. Getting an AWD BMW is like ordering a hamburger from Captain Bob's Seafood Restaurant

1/29/2009 10:48:20 PM

gotta love captian bob's

1/29/2009 10:53:54 PM

I was going to state this as an assertion, but recognizing that maybe I don't know enough about the SPECIFIC audi in question (an '07 a4 2.0T) I'll pose it as a question to prompt others to say whether they have the same impression or not

-pretty much all the longitudinal drivetrain audis and vws that I've driven, pre-s5, have been zero-feedback, understeering pigs when you really push them. Grip is rarely an issue, but early-intervening traction control and stability control, combined with "VE MUST CORRECHT FOR ALL POTENTIAL SLIP ZITUASHUNS IMMEEZIATELY" diffs rendered all of them no fun at all. This is the list of longitudinal audis that I have either driven once or twice or have had semi-regular access to at some point. The S4 was notably better than the larger cars, but driven back-to-back with a friend's e46 m3, it was dismally recalcitrant to change direction and had numb steering. (specific to the s4 anyway, and apart from my query here, I feel I ought to include a concession here that driving the s4 was extremely fun anyway, despite its pale showing next to an m3 and a '99 c5 auto that I drove maybe 2 days earlier, just because of its big-torque v8, pretty good clutch and shifter and miraculous ability to put the power DOWN):
--'01 audi a6 4.2 v8 auto quattro
--'02 audi s4 v8 6m quattro
--'99 audi a8 (swb)
--'01 audi a8L (v8, not w12)
--vw passat tdi
--vw passat 2.8,
--vw passat w8

All of the transverse awd/fwd vw/audis have been pleasant surprises, with fairly good steering and turn-in, and were all just generally happier being slung around. The passat cc, both fwd and awd, with either the 3.2v6 or the 2.0T was easily the most "audi-like" in the sense of the cars listed in the previous paragraph, but now that I think about it... I actually think the cc was about the same or a little more willing to rotate than the v8 s4. (It was about a year ago that I drove the s4, and the passat ccs were only about 3 weeks ago...)
--audi a3 2.0T dsg fwd
--audi a3 3.2v6 dsg awd
--'04 audi tt 3.2v6 awd
--mkv Vw gti 3door dsg fwd
--passat cc 2.0T fwd 6a-tip
--passat cc 3.2v6 awd 6a-tip
--'08 audi tt 2.0T dsg fwd
--mkv vw gti five-door 2.0t 6M

so... finally getting around to the question
Have other people been similarly (surprised by this/experienced this/felt this way) that these lighter fwd/ (part-time-in-event-of-slip)awd models have just felt more responsive and flingable than the always-4wd-and-constantly-shifting-torque systems of the longitudinal cars? Now that I've listed all of these, I can see that there's obviously some weight and wheelbase issues here, but until now, I'd just chalked it up to the difference b/n the haldex and torsen diffs...

I have not driven any a4s (apart from the v8 s4), so I'm curious as to whether my understandings of the longitudinal cars is not applicable to the a4 with the smaller motors, particularly any models that might have skinnier/ higher-profile tires or smaller wheels or softer suspension or fwd or any other particular option that might somehow cause it to behave more like the fwd/awd audis.

you know what, come to think of it, I've driven a few subies, but none of the wrx since the launch of the all-new chassis last year, so I guess I'll have to go drive both of these when I get a chance, regardless of what ppl can offer in opinion of those two cars. But, I definitely want to hear other ppls driving impressions of those cars...

[Edited on January 30, 2009 at 7:05 AM. Reason : typo]

oh.. and post-typo edit: I really don't understand the warm reception to the mazdaspeed 3, at least when compared to its obvious us-market rivals: vw gti, mini cooper, volvo c30 (manual with larger wheel/tire pkg... just drove one this past week... completely different feel from the first drive with an auto from a while ago), a3...

I mean, I'm sorry, but the ms3 really was the least fun of all those cars. I did get to use some WOT on my drive, but to me, the best part about a sharp fwd car is being able to roll-on the power a little earlier exiting a turn since you don't have to wait for the rear wheels to get close to lining up with the fronts... but the ms3's aggressive non-linear throttle tip-in, combined with the amount of torque available just made torque steer a predictable irritance that the other cars just don't suffer from.

[Edited on January 30, 2009 at 7:13 AM. Reason : ...]

1/30/2009 7:00:14 AM

the torsen takes a little while to get used to..

mine understeers some (no traction control). i would like to upgrade the rear sway bar eventually, i think that will help a good bit.

it does feel different than a haldex car, most notably it feels slower (drivetrain loss) and shifts are a little clunky when you're just driving around, but i cant really say which i like *better*, they are just *different*

there are also ways to change the front/rear bias in the center diff, which (i hear) makes it feel a lot different in the corners.

1/30/2009 9:56:34 AM

^^The MazdaSpeed3 is Mazda's rally platform. That should tell you all you need to know about it's capabilities. Much like the Impreza, there is a HUGE different between off-the-lot feel, and a track prepped vehicle. In both cars, spending a few weekends and a couple grand on suspension + tuning turns them into much more respectable vehicles for the track.

Pretty much all of the spec-series models I've ever driven seem to be that way. The worst (best) example I can think of is the Pontiac Solstice. It's absolutely the worst driving experience I've ever had in a 2door sports car. Handling was awful, steering was totally numb, pedal feel was non-existant.

But after watching how dominant they are in SCCA club series, and a couple of other race series where highly tuned GXP cars walk away from everything on the track, I know there's a good car in there somewhere.

1/30/2009 1:50:58 PM

I'm currently considering both cars as my DD replacement. Has anyone heard about the wrx's spun bearing issues with the 09's? It's apparently something Subaru is looking into right now

2/28/2009 11:19:59 AM

Quote :

"because some people drive in inclement weather. And like it or not, RWD is dangerous as shit on snow/ice. Since Mike (Prospero) lives in Denver, CO and I imagine he goes skiing and hiking a good bit, an AWD vehicle is pretty much necessary."

yes, AWD is a must. i have a 2WD w/ snow tires and it does just fine, but if i go new, i'd like to have AWD there just in case. and yes i go to the mountains about 1 out of every 2 weekends

^^watching Rhys Millen drive the Solstice on Pikes Peak IIHC was pretty impressive... still not as fast as the old celica his dad drove, but still.

can't belive this thread is still going.

i haven't decided yet and i think the test drive will be the determining factor. but with the economy as it is and with the industry i work in being on edge, i might buy a used car more reasonable, and upgrade to WRX/A4 next year... besides, the '09 A4 is pretty damn nice, would like to get the '09 1-year old

i like the A3 as well
no to the avant, not a big wagon fan, if i go WRX i'd go sedan
no to bmw, i just don't want one
no to VW, too many people complain about their reliability
and i refuse to buy anything older than 2-years old... i've decided the next car is going to be a car "I" want and want to drive it 10+ years reliably.

[Edited on March 6, 2009 at 1:34 AM. Reason : /]

3/6/2009 1:31:09 AM

Quote :

"no to VW, too many people complain about their reliability"

and you want to get an Audi?

3/6/2009 8:12:42 AM

Acura RL or awd IS250 or G35x then?

3/6/2009 9:24:37 AM

^ just don't get a IS250 with a manual (it's horrible).

i think the awd is auto only anyways? idk since I wasn't interested in the awd.

3/6/2009 12:00:14 PM

Quote :

"and you want to get an Audi?"

yes, i know plenty of people with Audi's and no/few problems, and i know many VW owners with LOTS of problems.

i know they are the same company, doesn't mean all their cars are built the same.

3/7/2009 7:19:02 PM

^ Personal experience with both.

I bought a 2002 Golf GLS in the summer of 2004 with 6,000 miles and have had:
Water pump broke, drivers window has fallen in 5 times/passenger once, sunroof broke, my headlights go out about every year, plus some small stuff....Im currently at 45,000 miles - nothing super major but not very impressive, has picked up quite a few rattles despite being cared for properly

My sister had an A4 ~2000 (around 98-02 model???? no rounded tail lights) and her engine blew up around 90k (bought at ~20k) and had so many problems she basically had to sell for scraps -- obviously a lemon and not typical of Audis, but theyre not so reliable. Parents have an old cabriolet (1998) which has actually been great, mostly because its stored in the winter and driven by old folks. No major problems.

3/7/2009 9:06:46 PM

went by the cary subi dealership saturday... all 09 wrx's are sold out everywhere, apparently. only way to get one is to put down a 1000 deposit and wait 10 weeks for it to come in

3/9/2009 3:08:52 AM

drive both, see how you like them, you have all the info. ask the mechanic at a random shop about which he would get perhaps?

remember extra performance might be the difference between hitting/spinning out by missing that wreck that just happened in front of you or avoiding it safely...

again just b/c your friends all have had no problems does not mean you won't (way way too narrow a sample size)

3/9/2009 2:44:12 PM

Quote :

"My sister had an A4 ~2000 (around 98-02 model???? no rounded tail lights) and her engine blew up around 90k (bought at ~20k) and had so many problems she basically had to sell for scraps -- obviously a lemon and not typical of Audis, but theyre not so reliable. "

1.8t?

recommended timing belt interval is 60k. was that the problem? neglecting scheduled maintenance is hardly the manufacturer's fault.

3/11/2009 3:55:39 PM

my new car:

2006 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro (2.0L Turbo)
Miles 65049
Ext Color: Black
Int Color: Black
6-Speed Manual
Power Windows
Power Door Locks
Cruise Control
AM / FM Stereo
Alarm
Single Compact Disc
ABS(4wheel)
Dual Front Airbags
Leather
Premium Package
Sunroof Package
Bluetooth Option
Lighting Package (fog lights)
Xenon Lights
Premium Sound, Bose System
XM Radio

Got it for $2,000-$3,000 less than what I would pay at the dealer, the guy buys them directly from Audi, $14,500

[Edited on March 19, 2009 at 10:14 PM. Reason : ,]

3/19/2009 10:13:41 PM

I don't think audi has a stellar reputation for reliability either when it comes to electrical gremlins.

My neighbor is on his third window regulator for his 06 A4.

3/19/2009 11:50:19 PM

IT'S TOO OLD YOU GOTTA BUY NEW!!!!

Just kidding, congrats. I really wish I was in the market to buy a car right now. The deals have me envious...

3/19/2009 11:54:43 PM

^didn't you just buy a car? I think you have some serious commitment issues, ahmet.

3/19/2009 11:57:02 PM

[n]Prospero[/n]

welcome to the club! Damn 65,000 miles since 06 is a lot lol

3/20/2009 12:01:16 AM

The deals right now are indeed insane.

3/20/2009 12:02:45 AM

^^I've got about 61800 on my 06 evo

[Edited on March 20, 2009 at 12:03 AM. Reason : ^]

3/20/2009 12:03:14 AM

yea, it's a VERY nice ride, and to think it's cheaper than a new Ford Focus

it's a clean carfax, 1-owner and it was a lease, hence the high miles I presume... it's nice knowing if I had to I could sell it on craigslist for $2-3k more than I paid if needed

3/20/2009 1:23:53 AM

YEAH ITS CHEAPER CUS IT DONT HAVE THE SYNC SYSTEM

3/20/2009 8:05:18 AM

I hope you got a certified car warranty.

My cam shaft bearing gave at 35,000. Probably would have been a $2000 job with out the warranty.

3/20/2009 8:21:56 AM

No the car was just recertified by Audi, most of the stuff I feel confident I can change myself, and already have a couple quotes that will do the timing belt for $500

3/20/2009 2:28:57 PM

i couldn't be happier


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[Edited on April 3, 2009 at 1:44 PM. Reason : ,]

4/3/2009 1:43:36 PM

sharp looking car man, enjoy it!

4/3/2009 1:49:17 PM

scooby doo might make it out of the lot before it breaks down

4/3/2009 8:23:03 PM

nice A4!

4/3/2009 10:08:24 PM

I had it checked out and everything looks good, got the oil changed and it's good to go for another 5k.

I've been on the audi forums and they have some sweet mods out there for it.

I'm hoping to jump on the APR sale to get the car chipped in the next month or so.

This is a modified B7 to look like the new B8's

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Same guy made his own LED taillights too:

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4/3/2009 11:17:31 PM

I had it checked out and everything looks good, got the oil changed and it's good to go for another 5k.

I've been on the audi forums and they have some sweet mods out there for it.

I'm hoping to jump on the APR sale to get the car chipped in the next month or so.

This is a modified B7 to look like the new B8's

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Same guy made his own LED taillights too:

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4/3/2009 11:19:22 PM

pics of it making it down the road without breaking down, a rare find

4/4/2009 6:01:23 PM

^ my B5 S4 is approaching 95k

4/4/2009 6:30:29 PM

along with your parts bill?

4/4/2009 7:20:46 PM

har har har har....

4/5/2009 9:04:13 PM

set em up

4/5/2009 9:23:48 PM