3/5/2009 12:35:53 PM

^^can you find it on youtube? I dont want to waste my time with any academic venue

3/5/2009 12:39:26 PM

Quote :

"Hey, how about you pay attention the UN. They're having a "racism" conference coming up soon, which has just become an Anti-Semitic Jew bashing forum! You need to fucking wake up before its in your own back yard you fucking idiot."

Hey? Guess what? It won't mean shit because nobody enforces anything that ever happens at UN conferences because nobody is legally obligated to (thank god).

But if this tickles your gizzard, go ahead, get mad. Did you know they already had similar courts like these "Sharia" courts in Britain for Jews?

Did you know that the numbers of Muslims, and especially the numbers of "radicals" in Europe have been drastically inflated by people like Mark Steyn, who isn't an expert but rather a failed British humorist who came to Canada hoping to break in and eventually got picked up by the right in America?

3/5/2009 7:07:27 PM

^apparently there are enough radicals to strike fear in the hearts of governments from the UK to France to Denmark. Sounds like too many radicals to me.

3/5/2009 7:37:54 PM

Was going to post an article from The Economist but it's subscription only so here's something else:

Quote :

" Why "Eurabia" Is Like "Jew York City": An Examination of Terminologies I really don't like it when sloppy and inaccurate terms--worse, terms which illegitimately polarize legitimate forms of debate and create new and dangerous possibilities--enter into the popular discourse. And yet, doing Google searches I find that "Eurabia" has taken a new prominent role. Created by Bat Ye'or, "Eurabia" has come into a new vogue among conservatives (particularly Anglophone ones) who blame European reluctance to support United States foreign-policy initiatives (like, say, Iraq) on large and growing Muslim populations which will, in the end, destroy Western (read Judeo-Christian) civilization on the far shores of the Atlantic. There are four reasons why this concept is fundamentally ill-founded. My first--and this point deals strictly with the mechanics of the argument--is that just as there is no way for the Jewish population of New York to form a predominant portion of that metropolis' population, given what we know about the demographic dynamics of the Jewish and general populations, so is there no way for the Muslim population of Europe to form a predomimant portion of that continent's population. There are--what?--480 million citizens of the European Union, and there are 15 million Muslims. I have no idea what Bernard Lewis was on when he suggested that Europe would become an extension of the Maghreb, but it must have been strong enough to make him completely overlook current trends (diminishing rates of immigration, rapidly falling fertility rates among Muslims) which point to the contrary trend. If it isn't going to happen in France, with the absolutely and relatively largest Muslim population in Europe, it's not going to happen in Europe as a whole."

The rest is here: http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003463.html

If authorities are reacting to a threat, it's largely one that just doesn't have the numbers to be considered any more of a demographic force than Jews in America (doesn't even come close to the Hispanic influence here).

[Edited on March 5, 2009 at 7:53 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2009 7:52:26 PM

Quote :

"I just somehow think that any religion that believes the murder of human lives, or even your own lives for the sake of God is false."

I guess that makes Christianity a false religion too Someone should take REL340 as their next elective.

3/5/2009 8:13:53 PM

Quote :

"I guess that makes Christianity a false religion too Someone should take REL340 as their next elective."

Not really. Point to me anywhere in the New Testament where it says to kill unbelievers. The Qur'an on the other hand, and especially the Suras, are filled with incitement to violence against those who don't believe.

I'm an atheist, but I can clearly see that Christianity, at it's very core, is much less violent than Islam. I mean shit, look at the figures that both are founded on. Jesus, the self-sacrificing carpenter, or Mohamed, the trader turned warlord.

3/5/2009 8:35:53 PM

Hasn't stopped either side from contradicting those facts (the Crusades on one hand, Sufis on the other)

3/5/2009 8:42:32 PM

I'm not aware of any Jewish populations in America rioting over cartoons, or declaring death threats against individuals that disagree with their ideals. I'm not aware of any Jewish populations in the US having enough sway to scare the federal government to change their policy (against free speech). I'm not aware of any Jewish populations pushing state governments to adopt their most strict holy laws.

Interestingly enough, I AM aware of that happening in Europe.

3/6/2009 12:57:07 AM

^exactly.

This is a disturbing trend that is happening in Europe. Thank God we are surrounded by water Mexico and Canada. I'll take a 10 Mexicans any day over 1 Radical Muslim.

3/6/2009 1:13:14 AM

This is an adaptation from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Quote :

"When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well. Here's how it works. As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in: United States -- Muslim 0.6% Australia -- Muslim 1.5% Canada -- Muslim 1.9% China -- Muslim 1.8% Italy -- Muslim 1.5% Norway -- Muslim 1.8%* At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in: Denmark -- Muslim 2% Germany -- Muslim 3.7% United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7% Spain -- Muslim 4% Thailand -- Muslim 4.6% From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in: France -- Muslim 8% Philippines -- Muslim 5% Sweden -- Muslim 5% Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3% The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5% Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8% At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world. When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris,we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in: Guyana -- Muslim 10% India -- Muslim 13.4% Israel -- Muslim 16% Kenya -- Muslim 10% Russia -- Muslim 15% After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in: Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8% At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in: Bosnia -- Muslim 40% Chad -- Muslim 53.1% Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7% From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in: Albania -- Muslim 70% Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4% Qatar -- Muslim 77.5% Sudan -- Muslim 70% After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in: Bangladesh -- Muslim 83% Egypt -- Muslim 90% Gaza -- Muslim 98.7% Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1% Iran -- Muslim 98% Iraq -- Muslim 97% Jordan -- Muslim 92% Morocco -- Muslim 98.7% Pakistan -- Muslim 97% Palestine -- Muslim 99% Syria -- Muslim 90% Tajikistan -- Muslim 90% Turkey -- Muslim 99.8% United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96% 100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in: Afghanistan -- Muslim 100% Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100% Somalia -- Muslim 100% Yemen -- Muslim 100% Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons. 'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj' It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts nor schools nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate. "

http://iluvsa.blogspot.com/2009/01/slavery-terrorism-islam.html

3/8/2009 6:44:45 PM

Ok, let's take this thread to the endgame here: what do you suggest we or any other country does in order to end these problems?

3/9/2009 12:06:41 AM

oh i've got a solution

you could call it a "final solution"

3/9/2009 1:02:46 AM

^^ stand up to muslims and fight them, don't cower down. In essence, don't puss out like the UK has.

3/9/2009 1:38:07 AM

As soon as oil is phased out, then Islam will diminish as a problem. I don't feel like looking myself, but if you look at the estimated figures of the money spent by Saudi Arabia alone on missionary work and spreading Islam... it's staggering. Cut off the massive flow of wealth into these states, and things will change. Right now, these countries are maintained by oil money, that ends and you are going to get some pretty massive social change, though it might be ugly for awhile.

Another problem is immigration. Some European countries have such big problems, because so many non-educated workers came in. In contrast with the US, where, for the most part, the requirements for entry from predominantly Muslim countries were much higher. Basically, Europe important foreign, uneducated labor, and it facing the consequences. Similar to us and Mexicans I guess, except Mexican culture isn't nearly as different and they can assimilate much easier. Legal immigration has become much harder in most European countries, though illegal immigration has become much more of a problem, but hopefully they turn off the faucet from Muslim countries, let the immigrants already there secularize and the problem will ease.

You can say Islam isn't a threat, but that is sticking your head in the sand. Islam was the West's biggest threat since it's inception until a few hundred years ago. Now, due to socio-cultural and economic reasons, there are those in the Muslim world who are striving to increase Islams influence and strength, and tear down the secular West. While, they are a minority, they do wield significant power in the Muslim world, and are scarily popular on the street. Even if Muslims wouldn't openly admit support for so called fundamentalists, there is at least tacit support in a large portion of the population.

The best way to fight it in the US? Have kids and raise them to uphold secular values. Don't go down the European route of not having kids and wake up one day and realize you are being... overrun, for lack of a polite way to say it.

3/9/2009 1:52:48 AM

^interesting, our love of oil is destroying our culture, our wealth, and our freedoms

3/9/2009 3:33:13 AM

Quote :

"Islam was the West's biggest threat since it's inception until a few hundred years ago"

[citation needed]

hell i'd settle for a further explanation using your own ideas

3/9/2009 4:38:34 AM

Well... Islam conquered all of Northern Africa, Spain, the Levant, Anatolia, Southern Italy, in a few hundred years from the Roman Empire, all of which were considered part of "the West". It's armies marched into southern France and were extremely close to conquering all of Europe. Remember, the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim conquests of Christian land, not Christian aggression towards Muslims. After the initial conquests, Europeans slowly push back Islam, until the arrival of the Ottoman Turks, who of course came to the very steps of Vienna.

So from Islams inception, it has been at war with the West until, say, the 18th century, when you see the West becoming overwhelming powerful, and the Ottomans go into a stabilization/retraction. It was Islam who conquered Christian lands, and converted Christians, not the other way around. It wasn't until the Enlightenment, when religion in the West changed, that there was peace between the two. Europeans become infinitely more powerful than Muslims, but didn't have the religious zeal that had fueled the millennium of war between the two.

Quote :

"our love of oil is destroying our culture, our wealth, and our freedoms"

haha, that is an extreme over-exaggeration, and not what I said at all, but I would say that because oil money goes into the hands of those that may not share our values, that it doesn't help.

3/9/2009 1:58:52 PM

Quote :

"Ok, let's take this thread to the endgame here: what do you suggest we or any other country does in order to end these problems?"

Well, if you're asking what governments can do to end these problems...probably not much. It's really more of a cultural thing that will have to work itself out. Anything that degrades, questions, or otherwise criticizes religion is positive. People don't seem to understand that you can't just get rid of radical Islam. It will go away when all religion goes away. Radical Islam is no more or no less reasonable than any other religious belief.

Countries that are having these problems should not be backing down from Islam. Moderate muslims will support separation of church and state, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion. If they don't, then they're not really a moderate.

3/9/2009 3:09:16 PM

Islam is the Light. Praise be to Allah and the Koran.

3/9/2009 6:09:37 PM

jignc1684
aha, thanks for the laugh. holy shit, I got to 10% and it talked about unrest. Then it mentioned India. That was fucking hilarious. Then it mentioned Israel

3/9/2009 8:51:47 PM

^ I lolled as well

3/9/2009 11:16:37 PM

that long quotation made perfect sense to me.

3/15/2009 11:42:10 PM

Quote :

"As soon as oil is phased out, then Islam will diminish as a problem. "

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding dingding ding ding ding

3/17/2009 4:17:35 PM

because then europe can round them up in camps, right

right?

3/18/2009 2:45:31 AM

probably would be easier if they just made their wear a badge, no?

3/19/2009 7:55:57 PM

Quote :

" Islam was the West's biggest threat since it's inception until a few hundred years ago. "

That is batshit insane.

Islam itself is not a problem, it's just a religion like any other religion. 99.99% of the Muslims in the US are in no way a threat to the US. They don't represent the problems you seem to be desperately trying to attribute to islam.

The problem is not islam itself, it's resources. It's strange you can point out the correlation with oil, but then insist on tying the religion in to things. Very strange...

3/19/2009 10:25:06 PM

dude the freaking book calls Jews pigs and monkeys. And then it goes on to say that it's followers are to spread their ideology by whatever means necessary. It says that the entire world should be following Islam. Which is why we see and hear about all these rioting's in Europe and other parts of the world. However it is nice enough to say that if you are a Jew or a Christian you can live under total Islamic law as a second class citizen by paying a tax. I see no other religion on Earth like that.

But I guess this guy falls under your .01% of the Muslims in the US:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/02/17/2009-02-17_muslim_tv_mogul_muzzammil_hassans_allege.html

In this story, you find out that the man and woman actually worked for a a satellite- distributed news and opinion channel that was making an effort to counter images of Muslim violence and extremism. Then after she files for divorce he chops her head off. Violence is not explicitly condoned by other religions like in Islam. I don't understand why they get the privileges to commit such atrocities and then have that backing of the people around them to support it. And then you say it is not Islam itself, where in pure Islamic cultures honor killings like this are common place.

When was the last time you heard of a Christian or Jew murdering his wife as an honor killing, just because she violated their honor? So no, Islam it is not another religion.

[Edited on March 19, 2009 at 11:26 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on March 19, 2009 at 11:26 PM. Reason : .]

3/19/2009 11:25:47 PM

^ you do realize in general crime rates are lower in the middle east than their peer countries?

This is not an issue of religion vs religion. It's extremist vs everyone else. The majority of muslims don't believe in indiscriminate killing of non-believers like you seem to believe. You don't really have to look any farther than the NCSU campus to see this, but there are muslims everywhere that live very peacefully and congenially with their neighbors. Muslims aren't violent bloodthirsty animals, any more than Americans or Jews are, or even the typical WWII era German.

3/19/2009 11:49:09 PM

I know that I don't have a problem with moderate Muslims. It's the people like the one in that link, that chop off their wife's head because she doesn't listen to him. Also by your definition of crime rate does that mean it is okay to beat and/or kill your wife if she dishonors him. Of course when you eliminate such things as honor killings and suicide bombings from your equation of crime rate it's not gonna effect it. And of course I think less people are going to try to commit crimes when you have the fear of getting your hands amputated for such crimes as theft. I bet a lot less people on here would think twice about stealing.

I could argue however that moderate Muslims are not taking every word in the Quran as serious as the extremists do. But I am glad for that.

3/20/2009 12:39:43 AM

i distrust christianity because of all the meth dealers in the bible belt

do you even read what you post?
you're letting one incident color your entire perception

or do you have a backlog of "moderate muslims in america who chop off their wives' heads"

cause if you do

awesome

3/20/2009 12:45:44 AM

Does the bible say anything about dealing meth? My point is this. The extremists are deriving their violent actions by words of the Quran. I haven't read the entire bible, but I don't think it says anywhere to beat your wife if she doesn't listen to you. And once again I did not say that the majority of the moderate Muslims in America or around the world for that matter do such things. That's crazy, but like someone said most Muslims are not terrorists...but most terrorists around the world are Muslims.

3/20/2009 1:05:03 AM

Quote :

"but I don't think it says anywhere to beat your wife if she doesn't listen to you. "

the fuck it doesn't

3/20/2009 1:06:41 AM

Quote :

"That's crazy, but like someone said most Muslims are not terrorists...but most terrorists around the world are Muslims."

Most people aren't left handed, but most of those who are left handed are people

3/20/2009 1:17:24 AM

^^where?

maybe it does. I don't know I don't think I've gotten to that part.

[Edited on March 20, 2009 at 1:21 AM. Reason : ^]

3/20/2009 1:20:39 AM

^^That raises an important (trivial) question:

Can animals be left-handed? Or, at least, can they favor a typically-less-used hand/paw/foot compared to the majority of their species?

[Edited on March 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM. Reason : .]

3/20/2009 1:20:48 AM

i seen a monkey jack himself off with his foot

thats gotta count for something

3/20/2009 1:44:52 AM

^^^To correct myself..no it doesn't. I'm sorry, it says some strange stuff when you put into the context of modern times. But it doesn't say it's okay to beat your wife, if she doesn't obey you.

3/20/2009 6:32:03 PM

Quote :

"Does the bible say anything about dealing meth?"

And lo he said unto them, "Hey Hey Hey, smoke weed everyday"

-Matthew 4:20

Quote :

"This is an adaptation from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism & Islam: Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:"

Hmmmm, yes, I'm sure he's a scholar of the Islamic world and...

Quote :

"For over 26 years, Dr. Peter Hammond has pioneered missionary outreaches, including into the war zones of Mozambique, Angola and Sudan. Often travelling by off road motorbike, Peter has travelled hundreds of thousands of kilometres to deliver Bibles to persecuted Christians in Africa and Eastern Europe. In the course of his missionary activities, Peter has been ambushed, come under aerial and artillery bombardments, been stabbed, shot at, beaten by mobs, arrested and imprisoned. In some mission trips he has flown far behind enemy lines to the Nuba Mountains in central Sudan with tons of Bibles, books and relief aid. He has walked throughout the war devastated Nuba Mountains showing the Jesus film in Arabic, proclaiming the Gospel, training pastors and evading enemy patrols. Rev. Peter Hammond is the Founder and Director of Frontline Fellowship, the Founder and Chairman of Africa Christian Action, the Director of the Christian Action Network and Chairman of The Reformation Society. He is the author of Faith Under Fire In Sudan, Holocaust In Rwanda, In the Killing Fields of Mozambique, The Great Commission Manual, The Biblical Worldview Manual, Putting Feet To Your Faith, The Greatest Century of Missions, Biblical Principles For Africa, the Discipleship Handbook, Slavery, Terrorism and Islam - The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat, The Greatest Century of Reformation and the Power of Prayer Handbook. He is the Editor of both Frontline Fellowship News and the Christian Action magazine. He is also a Contributing-Editor of JOY Magazine. Peter has developed the Biblical Worldview Seminar and Great Commission Course to mobilise churches to comprehensively apply the Lordship of Christ to all areas of life."

http://www.frontline.org.za/about%20us/intro_peterh.htm

Still wondering why Muslims aren't deserving of the same priveledges as other faiths as long as they don't break the existing law (which those courts don't, if you actually read up on the actual functions of them and not some anti-Muslim screed)...aside from the fact that they are apparently a monolithic body of ravenous beasts according to some of you.

[Edited on March 23, 2009 at 6:52 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2009 6:51:05 PM

Quote :

"^ you do realize in general crime rates are lower in the middle east than their peer countries?"

This would have anything to do with the fact that punishment for breaking the law is in some cases public executions, cutting off body parts, and breaking bones? (NOTE: FAR WORSE THAN ANY OF OUR MILITARY INTERROGATIONS, FOR YOU LIBERALS OUT THERE)

Maybe the US should institute this doctrine and lower our crime rate!

Quote :

"I guess that makes Christianity a false religion too Someone should take REL340 as their next elective."

Proof wolfpackgrrr (like most liberals) dosent understand Christianity....Let me spell it out for you.....The key to being a Chrisitan is Christ....thats where the name comes from remember? Jesus, please help these people

Quote :

"Most people aren't left handed, but most of those who are left handed are people"

Should say ALL of those who are left handed are people.....not a correct analogy.....

3/23/2009 10:58:10 PM

I could probably put this in a new thread, but I think it is still very relevant to what is happening to Britain. Thank God our government is finally starting to wake up and use their brains. I hope they do it some more.

Quote :

" CAIR’s Well-Deserved Expulsion Terrorism is only one expression of jihad — there are others as dangerous. A week ago, the FBI officially announced that it has cut ties with the Council on American-Islamic Relations. The self-styled civil rights organization is characteristically squawking, but the FBI’s move was patently overdue — so much so that we ought to be asking: Why on earth did the FBI have ties with CAIR in the first place? While we should applaud the government for finally doing the right thing, we also must seize this moment to consider why this action was necessary, and what it says about the threat we are up against. That threat is not, essentially, about terrorism. Given the life-and-death stakes involved, it is understandable that government is preoccupied by terrorism (or what Obama’s homeland security secretary, Janet Napolitano, absurdly calls “man-caused disasters”). But jihadist terror is merely the means to a specific end: the installation of sharia, the Islamic legal code, which Muslim fundamentalists regard as the necessary precondition for the achievement of Islam’s universalist ambitions. Sharia should be of grave concern to us because it is antithetical to the U.S. Constitution and to our way of life. It rejects several core American propositions: that liberty cannot co-exist with an established state religion, that free people have a right to govern themselves irrespective of any religious code’s dictates, that there should be freedom of conscience (sharia holds that apostasy from Islam is not merely a crime but a capital offense), sexual liberty (homosexuality is also a death-penalty offense), and equal protection under the law (sharia privileges Muslims over non-Muslims and men over women). Sharia, furthermore, is the rationale commonly trotted out by militants to justify the use of force (whether we call it “terrorism” or employ such sophistries as “resistance” or “man-caused disasters”) for resolving policy disputes — under the rationale that policies that do not privilege Islam constitute an attack on Islam and therefore justify jihadist violence. Incrementally establishing sharia is the central imperative of CAIR and several other organizations to which our government has recklessly been reaching out for years, since long before the 9/11 attacks. In sum, administrations of both parties, and executive branch agencies including the FBI, have taken the position that government’s only legitimate concern is the comparatively tiny cohort of terrorists who construe Islamic scriptures to command mass-murder attacks. Not only have we averted our eyes from the ideology that motivates jihadism. We have affirmatively anointed as Muslim “moderates” the purveyors of this ideology, who are anything but moderate. Worse, the effect has been to empower anti-American elements at the expense of authentic Muslim moderates and reformers who crave liberty. CAIR is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian organization founded in 1928 that today boasts divisions throughout the world. The Brotherhood has been operating in the United States since the 1960s in a manner fully consistent with its motto: “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Quran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.” Its website makes no bones about the fact that it seeks “the introduction of the Islamic Shariah as the basis for controlling the affairs of state and society.” [/b]Last year, the government won convictions in a terrorism-financing trial that targeted an ostensible Islamic charity, the Holy Land Foundation, along with several of its top operatives.[/b] CAIR has complained long and loud because prosecutors identified it as an unindicted co-conspirator in the case. Its argument that this was a smear is specious. The issue is not whether the government named CAIR on a list disseminated pretrial; what’s germane is the basis for that listing. The government richly supported its assertion with evidence, and no citizen or organization has a right to expunge that which is proved in the public’s courts. [/b]At trial, the jury was treated to a 1991 Brotherhood memorandum that described the organization’s “work in America” as “a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers, so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.” CAIR has been the linchpin of that strategy.[/b] Some history is in order. In 1987, the Brotherhood had established Hamas (or “the Islamic Resistance Movement,” as it describes itself). As its charter professes, Hamas is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterized by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgment, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam. In a memorandum filed in a Texas federal court, prosecutors further elaborated that, through the early 1990s, “the Muslim Brotherhood was controlled by Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood members, and the leader of the U.S.-Muslim Brotherhood was Mousa Abu Marzook, who in 1989 was selected to be the leader of HAMAS, a position that he held while residing in the United States and controlling the U.S.-Muslim Brotherhood.” To support Hamas, the Brotherhood established a “Palestine Committee” in the United States. Marzook (deported in 1995, he is currently wanted on a U.S. terrorism indictment in Chicago) led the Palestine Committee. One of its most important members was Omar Ahmad, who became president of the Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), which Marzook had formed years earlier. In 1993, the Palestine Committee convened a meeting in Philadelphia to plot a strategy for destroying the Oslo Accords’ vision of a two-state solution — Palestine peacefully co-existing with Israel, which Hamas is pledged to destroy.The meeting was secretly surveilled by the FBI, which caught Ahmad conversing with Nihad Awad, the IAP’s public-relations director, about strategies for deceiving Americans about their true intentions. Less than a year later, Ahmad and Awad formed CAIR. The Holy Land Foundation, which was ultimately shuttered by the government and finally convicted for providing millions of dollars to Hamas, contributed part of the seed money. To serve as CAIR’s communications director, Ahmad and Awad tapped Ibrahim Hooper, another IAP veteran who has publicly acknowledged that his purpose is to establish sharia as the law of the United States. Since its founding, several CAIR officials have been convicted or deported for terrorism-related activities and for other criminal offenses. CAIR, meanwhile, has sought to undermine national security — and the FBI specifically — at every turn: frequently mounting public-relations campaigns for indicted terror suspects, vigorously opposing the Patriot Act and the surveillance of suspected al-Qaeda communications, and even distributing a “Muslim community safety kit” that discourages cooperation with the FBI. Despite that sordid record, government officials regarded CAIR as a representative and leader of American Muslims. Our law-enforcement and national-security agencies consulted with it closely and even permitted it to indoctrinate our agents during compulsory “sensitivity training” lectures. Doing so, they raised its profile, facilitated its radical, anti-American agenda, and dispirited our allies in the Muslim community, many of whom are in the United States precisely because they don’t want to live in the totalitarian misery the Muslim Brotherhood and its satellites would impose. The major threat we face today is not what al-Qaeda may do to the grand structures that house our government and our institutions. It is what radical Islam is accomplishing inside those structures. Thankfully, the FBI has shown CAIR the door. But that only begins to address the problem. "

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjEyNTQyMmYzYmM0ZDk4NGYxYTdkMTQxZmZlNDgxY2Q=&w=MQ==

You should read the actual link because it provides a lot more inside the site that link to other relations to this. For instance about Obama’s homeland security secretary, Janet Napolitano, calling terrorism “man-caused disasters”.

So this pretty much sums it up for you. Terrorism is not the problem it is a "means to a specific end: the installation of sharia, the Islamic legal code." That is what Islam wants to do. It is just using terrorism partially as means to do that.

[Edited on March 26, 2009 at 8:52 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on March 26, 2009 at 8:53 PM. Reason : q]

3/26/2009 8:51:13 PM

sorry about the [/b] I hope that doesn't take away from what I was trying to say.

3/27/2009 11:04:20 AM

What does it matter what we call it as long as we defend appropriately against it?

Unless you consider discouraging Muslim immigration and calling Islam itself a threat.

3/27/2009 10:29:27 PM

No I am not discouraging Muslim immigration as long as they have been soundly checked and have a notable reason for wanting to come to our country. But Islam itself is a threat...that is where I will have to disagree with you. You see there is no New Testament to the Koran and I don't think there ever will be. When a book is filled with archaic messages that teach hate against all non-Muslims, that is where I will have to disagree with you.

That book distinctly draws a line between muslims and non-muslims. It's as if Muslims are the only ones that have the right to live according to the book. And under Sharia Law everyone is supposed to be Muslim and practice the same belief. There is no color to life and everything is the same. That sounds a whole lot like an Ideology to me. They think that Muslims are superior, and in accordance everyone else is beneath them. And under Islamic Law non-muslims have to pay extra taxes to the Muslims because they are more superior and better than us.

But if they are so superior why are their countries in such poverty and their people suffering? It could be because of instead of looking for peace and supporting the people of their country. They're throwing all of their money into terrorism and war. If it really were a religion of peace you would probably see beautiful Muslim countries with happy wonderful people teaching their children to love their neighbors, but no you don't see that.

Also I don't know if you noticed or not, but our FBI actually supported this organization for years. Willfully giving aid to Muslims and trying to support American Muslim relations. All the while they were funding terrorism and trying to destroy our country from within. So there you go when you support something that is trying to eat you from within, it's like having cancer. A malignant cancer.

I hate to be so blunt, but it's the truth.

3/28/2009 12:48:41 AM