christians

likely to support torture?

is the question

it's important if you identify your faith if you want to stress a belief

for example i am pagan

i'm with theduke on this... i support what i think america stands for... that is, we're better than the "bad guys"

if the bad guys get us down to one dude and a water board

then i guess we fucked up before that

what is it we WANT to be?

if it takes waterboarding a guy or gal to save the country

then we've already lost the country

but if you're Christian

was there ever any country except the Kingdom of God to begin with?

would a torture have saved this country from 9/11?

maybe

would a torture saved this country from pearl harbor?

would a torture saved this country from ft sumter?

would a torture saved this "country" from firing shots at concord?

and then again i guess you have to think about what history is


a lot of good from this country came from non-war-related history


sometimes positive, christian things:

mlk comes to mind

can you guys name positive christian movements that resulted in positive change?

4/30/2009 10:49:29 PM

im trying to find that news article where any atheists from america went on missions to iraq, where is it?

4/30/2009 10:50:07 PM

Quote :

"Unless i'm mistaken, Christians by and large don't care too much about the hundred thousand or so innocent muslim deaths in Iraq. That is support."

You can't honestly claim that supporting a cause that results in deaths is in the same ballpark as someone who individually physically carries out those attacks in the form of suicide bombings

4/30/2009 10:50:39 PM

Quote :

"Agent, still didnt answer my question. "

what, the prochoice question?
Yes - i am. I don't think it's a rationalization to claim that groups of cells with no brain, heart or nervous system are not life, and therefore should not be allowed to be destroyed at the will of the carrier woman. Should there be limits? yes, of course. Is the current 3 month limit good? I suppose. Is it somewhat arbitrary? yes, probably, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Is an early-term abortion any worse than IVF clinics throwing away embryos by the thousand every week (or, horror of horrors, donating them for stem-cell research!)? nope. Are the potential mothers, potential children, and society as a whole better off without millions of unwanted offspring who can't properly be taken care of by their parents? I'm inclined to think so. (that answer is as close to a real rationalization on the topic, but it is only one argument of many for the pro-choice side).

I will willingly submit, though, that I find the legal grounds for Roe v. Wade (right to privacy) to be shaky, at best, and of course entirely hypocritical, because the same argument could easily be used for drug use and other so-called privacy issues. Given that, though, I'm still glad it is the law.


---


back to torture....
If waterboarding isn't torture, do you think it should be allowed on Americans, in domestic interrogations? Or would that violate a citizen's Fifth Amendment rights?
Since torture proponents are so quick to bring out the ticking time-bomb scenario, what about something closer to home - what the the police capture a known rapist and murderer who has a young, woman hostage hidden in an unknown location? Can the police or FBI waterboard him (it's only mildly uncomfortable, after all) to try to get an answer? Can they slap him? Hit him in the head? Threaten his life? Strip him naked? Sick dogs on him? "Jab him in the chest with a finger"? Electrocute him mildly? Harshly?
Which ones of those goes to far? Which ones are OK? Are any or all of those actions in an attempt to induce self-incrimination?

4/30/2009 10:51:41 PM

^^ i never said that... you asked about support, i answered support. I didn't realize you were confused as to what the word "support" means, i apologize.

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 10:52 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2009 10:51:50 PM

this thread is NOT about torture

it's about Christians and their relativity to torture

4/30/2009 10:52:57 PM

Quote :

"So you admit that torture is just like slicing up an infant, but you still support torture? sick "

Not at all. I wonder how many of you can be against the act of pouring water on someone, while supporting cutting up an unborn infant. (i know you wont answer it, im just asking you to think about it)

Quote :

"positive christian movements that resulted in positive change"

Mission trips, rebuilding New Orleans, civil society, just to name a few.

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 10:55 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2009 10:52:58 PM

lol infant

i support cutting up a new born baby

AFTER it comes out the womb

4/30/2009 10:54:29 PM

^^ how can you support torture, but claim to be better than your enemies?

Do you understand what the word torture means?

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 10:54 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2009 10:54:35 PM

look

we're all gonna down the crazy slide

some of us are just better judging who gets pinatas than the rest

4/30/2009 10:55:39 PM

I'd rather defeat my enemies than claim to be better than them

seems like a natural survival instinct

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 10:57 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2009 10:56:54 PM

^ if you're not better than them, you've already lost.

4/30/2009 10:57:21 PM

Quote :

"I wonder how many of you can be against the act of pouring water on someone, while supporting cutting up an unborn infant. (i know you wont answer it, im just asking you to think about it)"

i am anti-torture
i am anti-abortion
i am pro-democracy
i am pro-freedom

but then again, having grown up outside the US i don't fit neatly into the 2 political groups. i take the best of each



[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 10:58 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2009 10:57:40 PM

^^what if you're deader than them

to me, that seems like a lot bigger loss than being perceived as being better than them

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 10:58 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2009 10:57:52 PM

What principles are worth dying for?

For what will you sacrifice your morals and principles?

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 11:00 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2009 10:58:57 PM

I know some tangible things worth dying for, like friends and family, but not as many principles, especially if its a religious philosophy

^seems like too broad of a question to honestly answer somewhat concisely

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 11:01 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2009 10:59:58 PM

Heard of partial birth abortions marko?

Agent, thanks for your honest response. I feel the same towards abortion. This one line you said make me think.

Quote :

"society as a whole better off without millions of unwanted offspring who can't properly be taken care of by their parents? I'm inclined to think so. "

Would you support mandatory birth control for all on welfare? I do, but I imagine you would object.

I only brought up the abortion angle to compare it to your rationalizing immoral and unethical actions. As many would consider abortion to be just that.

I too am prochoice, but I am 100% against any late term abortion. Its all about drawing the lines as you say. I agree. However, my line is different than yours on what I consider to be torture. That is all im trying to say.

4/30/2009 11:02:10 PM

Quote :

"what if you're deader than them to me, that seems like a lot bigger loss than being perceived as being better than them "

what century are you living in?

We're not fighting in the middle east because we're afraid they're going to kill us. This is not a battle of survival.

We're fighting to thwart extremist from taking hold. When we take steps towards extremism, such as openly justifying and validating torture, then we have no reason to win. We might as well lose, because there is no net gain to our winning.

And something else i wonder... if you're saying that it's okay for the gov. to torture in extreme situations, where is the line drawn? Is it now okay for local police forces to use torture too? It sets a terrible precedent to allow something that is explicitly defined as being morally repugnant.

^ what would you consider to be torture then?

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 11:06 PM. Reason : ]

4/30/2009 11:04:42 PM

it doesn't matter if its a battle of survival, if its a just battle, winning the battle is more important than outside perception of it

Quote :

"what century are you living in?"

just because your train of thought is in the 21st century doesn't mean that the terrorists are

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 11:07 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2009 11:06:28 PM

^ no it does matter.

If it's a battle of ideology, and our ideology is not superior, then we can't win.

4/30/2009 11:07:01 PM

ideology is great, but i'd rather win by killing the enemies or getting them to surrender and stop fighting, as a result of fucking up all their forces, than get some moral victory of being a better person, and have them blow up my city

4/30/2009 11:09:51 PM

Quote :

"Heard of partial birth abortions marko? Agent, thanks for your honest response. I feel the same towards abortion. This one line you said make me think. "

no problemo, butterworth

thinking is cool, and i'd be hatebest to say i hadn't moved my notions once in a while on here

this thread is highly suspect, however

as very few have declared their religious affiliation when responding

instead, it's turned into the same old same old

and that is boooooooooring

4/30/2009 11:14:21 PM

I'm agnostic...I just think worldwide, I'm more likely to be blown up by a Muslim radical than a Christian radical

4/30/2009 11:15:30 PM

thanks for your contribution

it's been applied the "poll"

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 11:19 PM. Reason : but i appreciate it, mr sidbury]

4/30/2009 11:17:17 PM

Quote :

"instead, it's turned into the same old same old and that is boooooooooring"

4/30/2009 11:18:02 PM

4/30/2009 11:23:02 PM

Quote :

"Explain to me, libertarian, why the government should be able to torture somebody? "

There is disagreement over this even among libertarians.

Look, war is an ugly nasty business. The Good Guys and the Bad Guys end up using the same methods...for differing purposes.

The islamo-fanatics take people and saw off their heads, in their goal to take over the world and make it muslim...all in the name of their God and religion.

We are water-boarding guys just so we can enjoy our lunch-hour without a jumbo jet smashing into our cubicle.

4/30/2009 11:37:40 PM

let's just hope all the hamster cages are well taken care of

wet tail is a bitch

thank the Lord sometimes you're the God of your own Creation

[Edited on April 30, 2009 at 11:48 PM. Reason : i'm sure the birds never smell]

4/30/2009 11:42:26 PM

I tried actually explaining the results of the study in a non-inflammatory matter, but that's much less entertaining than mindless trolling and the same ol' stuff.

THANKS, 24-HOUR NEWS CYCLE, FOR MINIMIZING THE IMPORTANCE OF LOGIC AND REASON

4/30/2009 11:59:03 PM

hell i don't even disagree in the use of water boarding if someone deems it truly necessary due to an imminent threat to American lives. As long though as it is not abused.

I just laugh at pundits who try to argue it is not torture.

5/1/2009 12:02:10 AM

This thread brings up an important question, the question being how you confront a person whose point of view does not, in any way, mesh with reality? My current strategy is to decline to engage them and to weep silently for the fate of humanity.

5/1/2009 12:12:46 AM

seems like if we marginalized religion the world would be such a fucking better place...

5/1/2009 12:25:44 AM

Quote :

"seems like if we marginalized religion the world would be such a fucking better place..."

Nah, we'd just kill each other over whether we're commies or capitalist pigs instead. Or nationality. Or ethnicity. Or sexual orientation. Or philosophy. Or political party. Or just about anything else that can help mankind establish an "Us vs. Them".

5/1/2009 12:47:23 AM

Quote :

"ideology is great, but i'd rather win by killing the enemies or getting them to surrender and stop fighting, as a result of fucking up all their forces, than get some moral victory of being a better person, and have them blow up my city "

all well and good, but has nothing to do with torture. You can have your cake AND eat it too, in this case, if you choose.

5/1/2009 1:33:35 AM

The God of the bible condoned and actually committed acts much worse than torture. Even Jesus said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. Torture isn't really mentioned in the bible, because God would probably rather just kill the person in question, as he usually does. The bible doesn't really suggest that violence is wrong, it just has to be for the right reason.

But hey, it's the infallible, inerrant word of God.

5/1/2009 1:49:40 AM

^ are you kidding?

Although the Bible isn't specially consistent, there is an overarching theme...

GrumpyGOP:
http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=564851#12859227

[Edited on May 1, 2009 at 2:14 AM. Reason : ]

5/1/2009 2:12:12 AM

There really isn't an overarching theme, though. God's characteristics change, apparently, at the whim of whoever was writing or translating the bible. The character of God in the old testament changes drastically over time, and in the new testament.

As far as the Jesus quotes go, a lot of good that does. Chalk it up to yet another bible contradiction or an example of how the bible can't be read literally. Either way, it's bullshit.

5/1/2009 2:26:59 AM

Im just laughing at how much the "good guys" and "bad guys" terminology has been thrown around

5/1/2009 9:10:27 AM

good

5/1/2009 9:22:31 AM

We're so fucked. Just a bunch of insane apes doomed to extinction.

5/1/2009 9:45:49 AM

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/torture/abc-news-whoops-our-story-sanitizing-torture-was-all-wrong/?ref=fp3

Quote :

"ABC News: Whoops, Our Story Sanitizing Torture Was All Wrong ABC News has quietly acknowledged that they screwed up in airing a now-discredited 2007 story reporting that a top terror suspect swiftly broke under minimal waterboarding, a tale that was widely picked up at the time, sanitizing and shaping the subsequent torture debate and boosting the claim that it works."

Quote :

"A former Navy survival instructor subjected to waterboarding as part of his military training told Congress yesterday that the controversial tactic should plainly be considered torture and that such a method was never intended for use by U.S. interrogators because it is a relic of abusive totalitarian governments. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/08/AR2007110802150.html

[Edited on May 1, 2009 at 10:53 AM. Reason : ]

5/1/2009 10:40:09 AM

Atheist btw.

I thought we decided that waterboarding was torture in a different thread. Please keep up people.

I honestly don't give a shit about having a moral high ground. I just think that torturing people is an absolute waste of time. How reliable is the data you get from torture? People have confessed to being wizards, witches, throne-usurpers, the devil, and any number of other things thanks to torture. Read up on POWs forced to denounce their military and their country and what their breaking points were. The tortured will tell you what they think you want to hear.

Finally, "White evangelical Protestants" is a demographic that I wouldn't mind vanishing into the heavens like they think is going to happen. Just a threadjack, I haven't been able to find anything where Jesus denounces suicide. If it would get you to your savior that much more quickly, why aren't Christians offing themselves more often? If you cite the Old Testament, please let me know about that trip you made to Red Lobster. Thanks!

5/1/2009 1:20:54 PM

Quote :

"[quote]While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death." Mr Nance said US troops were trained to withstand waterboarding, watched by a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a backup team. "When performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner – it is torture, without doubt," he added. "Most people cannot stand to watch a high-intensity, kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American.""

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/waterboarding-is-torture--i-did-it-myself-says-us-advisor-398490.html[/quote]

5/1/2009 4:34:02 PM

I'm not really decided on torture.

^^as far as admitting you are a wizard, witch, etc...I think its important to recognize they aren't looking to charge the person with something, they are usually trying to get intelligence. If they can tell us something and it turns out useful, maybe its worth it. Maybe its not, I really haven't decided.

When it comes to the moral high ground, we kill people, the bad guys kill people. We take things from the bad guys, the bad guys take things from us. We spy on the bad guys, the bad guys spy on us. Maybe torture is just a tool, and its morality is determined by how it is used.

[Edited on May 1, 2009 at 4:38 PM. Reason : extra carrot!]

5/1/2009 4:34:18 PM

Torture is not a tool.

Interrogation is a tool.

Torture is torture.

[Edited on May 1, 2009 at 4:42 PM. Reason : ]

5/1/2009 4:42:16 PM

^^ The former Navy survival instructor has no business making claims that this technique was not intended for use by US interrogators. That comment is a flat out lie. We already know that Congress was briefed on the topic before its use, and it was given the OK by many Doctors prior to its use.

Let me tell you how middle America sees this (the "Christians" if you will)...

You have Guy X, who has been captured for plotting terrorists attacks or whatever he was captured for. By interrogating Guy X, you will possibly gain information that will save American lives. By using additional techniques, you raise the possibility of gaining information substantially. Take your life for example, or the life of your child or spouse. If you had a 5% chance (or even a 0.01% chance) of saving that persons live, the American economy, and everything that you and I take for granted as Americans, would you do it?

5/1/2009 4:52:21 PM

Quote :

"The truth is this doesnt affect ANY of us. Except those people in LA that it may have saved... but lets not count them."

tell that to people who are killed by terrorists who are recruited through use of guantanamo bay as an example of how evil america is.

Quote :

"You have Guy X, who has been captured for plotting terrorists attacks or whatever he was captured for. By interrogating Guy X, you will possibly gain information that will save American lives. By using additional techniques, you raise the possibility of gaining information substantially. Take your life for example, or the life of your child or spouse. If you had a 5% chance (or even a 0.01% chance) of saving that persons live, the American economy, and everything that you and I take for granted as Americans, would you do it?"

but this situation doesn't exist in a vacuum. actions have consequences and the consequence of america committing torture, whatever the reason, is losing our moral high-ground when trying to prevent human rights abuses around the world. not to mention, many intelligence officials have said that the info gained through torture isn't nearly as credible as info gained through other techniques.

ALSO, how would you know if a person had information about an impending disaster? would you just assume that they would and torture them until they give you something? not to mention, a large portion of this "harsh interrogation" was used to try to form a link between al-qaeda and saddam's iraq where one didn't really exist.

[Edited on May 1, 2009 at 5:01 PM. Reason : .]

5/1/2009 4:58:39 PM

I really did not expect this topic to reach 3 pages

5/1/2009 5:19:22 PM

^^^ you're describing an outlandish scenario that never existed, from any information that's publicly known.

The information we have so far overwhelmingly supports the idea that we didn't need to torture, we wanted to torture. And that Bush et al even pushed for torture when the CIA had already determined that it wasn't necessary.

I guess you are free to support the idea of torture based on some bizarre scenario, but realize that you are justifying the actions of brutal regimes throughout history too.

5/1/2009 5:29:13 PM

Quote :

"Let me tell you how middle America sees this (the "Christians" if you will)... You have Guy X, who has been captured for plotting terrorists attacks or whatever he was captured for. By interrogating Guy X, you will possibly gain information that will save American lives. By using additional techniques, you raise the possibility of gaining information substantially. Take your life for example, or the life of your child or spouse. If you had a 5% chance (or even a 0.01% chance) of saving that persons live, the American economy, and everything that you and I take for granted as Americans, would you do it?"

Your whole position is based on a false premise.

5/1/2009 10:17:21 PM