page [2] of cheap labor

5/31/2009 2:47:32 PM

Quote :

"you do realize that this is the one of the arguments to which the 'democrats of power'"

Immaterial. Improper use of a good argument does not devalue the argument. Sooner or later, it won't just be aliens that are exploited; increasingly, it will be people with criminal records who have served their time and paid their debts. It will grow to encompass pretty much anybody who doesn't have enough money to resist the employers' efforts.

I have really enjoyed seeing the contradictory arguments of the anti-immigrant camp in this thread:

We must obey the law!/I don't care if the law is broken.
We must punish the employers who hire illegals!/Let the employers who hire illegals punish them!

The lack of consistency in some of the nobler-seeming arguments increasingly seems to indicate that the overriding elements of their true beliefs are classism and racism. It's a bit hard to tell apart at the moment since this phase of American integration involves people who are not only poor (as they have pretty much always been), but who also are brown. I'll give most of you the benefit of the doubt and say you're just disgusting by poor people, not by nonwhites.

5/31/2009 7:53:53 PM

Quote :

"Sooner or later, it won't just be aliens that are exploited; increasingly, it will be people with criminal records who have served their time and paid their debts. It will grow to encompass pretty much anybody who doesn't have enough money to resist the employers' efforts. "

ummmm......

ok.....

maybe u did not pay attention in history class enough....

sounds about like what has been going on since the dawn of time; which really got rampant during the industrial revolution.

5/31/2009 8:21:36 PM

Quote :

"maybe u did not pay attention in history class enough...."

I have always been an avid history student. Yes, it has always been going on, but the western world has put some restraints on how badly employers can screw over employees. Obviously enough, though, it's not like employers have all become more generous as a result. When they get the opportunity, many still exploit the hell out of people.

As the anti-immigrant lot is so fond of pointing out, letting people get away with crimes has the potential to make them more likely to keep doing so, and to expand their criminal efforts. I don't agree with all the applications of this logic, but it seems like you (and others) have been awfully quick to throw it out the window after touting it so proudly for so long.

Far beyond all the specifics, of course, is the more generally ludicrous nature of your statement. A lot of very undesirable, terrible things have gone on "since the dawn of time." Murder, rape, slavery, child abuse, and -- of course -- illegal immigration have all gone on since the dawn of time. The Jews all moved rather illegally into Canaan, as I recall. Not that it worked out terribly well historically, but you get the idea. Virtually all crimes have gone on since the dawn of time, or at least since the dawn of the technology that made them possible. I suppose it was hard to do a hit-and-run before the invention of the wheel.

5/31/2009 8:38:18 PM

Quote :

"We must obey the law!/I don't care if the law is broken. We must punish the employers who hire illegals!/Let the employers who hire illegals punish them!"

Nice pair of scarecrows you got there... planning on starting a family?

Quote :

"The lack of consistency in some of the nobler-seeming arguments increasingly seems to indicate that the overriding elements of their true beliefs are classism and racism."

Hooraaaaaaaaaay race card!

6/1/2009 11:26:02 PM

Quote :

"Nice pair of scarecrows you got there"

Uh-huh.

How many times have I seen the anti-immigrant camp say, "We have to enforce immigration law because we are a nation of laws! We can't just let people break the law!" Until we get to this thread. When immigrants suffer illegal discrimination at the hands of corrupt and criminal employers, it's, "Well screw 'em, they broke the law, let other people break the law all over them."

And God knows how much ranting there's been about the need to crack down on those who employ illegal aliens. Again, until this thread. I don't know that I've seen one person say anything about cracking down on employers here. Instead, even though we have those employers committing even more criminal acts, the anti-immigrant camp suddenly falls mute.

Quote :

" Hooraaaaaaaaaay race card!"

Your own words about the issue:

Quote :

"It absolutely is entangled with race."

Although you never clarified. In fact, you never answered a lot of the things I asked you. You just seemed to disappear after I called you out for trying to change the subject, perhaps in hope that in a few days I would have forgotten that I still have several important questions for you. I think it's much more likely, though, that you prefer banal comments like the one in your last post to anything actually resembling discussion.

6/2/2009 10:29:25 AM

Quote :

"When immigrants suffer illegal discrimination at the hands of corrupt and criminal employers, it's, "Well screw 'em, they broke the law, let other people break the law all over them.""

That's not what I said. that's why it's a strawman. Good work!

Quote :

"Your own words about the issue:"

There is a difference between "it's entangled with race" and "you're just a dirty racist."

By all means, ask your questions, though. Most of them seem to border on "why shouldn't we uphold the law when illegals are harmed," which, as I've already mentioned, is a strawman. Ask away. I "disappeared" because I had to go to work. I know, call me crazy, but I do prefer to head to work some times...

6/2/2009 7:31:42 PM

Quote :

"There is a difference between "it's entangled with race" and "you're just a dirty racist.""

Explain the difference. If people are taking race into account on this issue, it's racism. Explain to me how I'm wrong -- like I asked you to do days ago.

Quote :

"That's not what I said."

I don't recall saying that you, specifically, said anything.

6/3/2009 7:21:34 PM

well, then why make the comment towards me? Who are you complaining about? It certainly aint me... *cough*backtracking*cough*

as for the difference, it should be pretty obvious. In one instance, there is the assertion that the issue is only about race. In the other, race is but one aspect, and probably not even all that much. Surely you are smart enough to see that.

6/4/2009 10:11:06 PM

Quote :

"well, then why make the comment towards me? Who are you complaining about? It certainly aint me..."

If you'll look, you'll see that this whole line of conversation started with you commenting on something very general that wasn't pointedly directed at any one poster.

Me: Man, some of you guys are being hypocritical.
You: Nice pair of scarecrows.
Me: What do you mean, scarecrows? The anti-immigrant camp has a double-standard when it comes to enforcing the law.
You: Nuh-uhn I didn't say that!
Me: Uh...I didn't say that you did...
You: Lol you're backtracking!

Quote :

"In one instance, there is the assertion that the issue is only about race. In the other, race is but one aspect, and probably not even all that much. Surely you are smart enough to see that."

I know you're not this fucking dense.

For one thing, in the quote that you refer to as "playing the race card," I saw that the underlying root of many anti-immigrant positions seems to be racism and classism, and then go on to say, "I'll give most of you the benefit of the doubt and say you're just disgusted by poor people, not by nonwhites."

At no point did I say the issue was only about race. I at least said there was a class issue at play, and then I didn't even say that the issue was only about those two things. But far be it from me to tell you to read shit before you respond to it.

More importantly, if race enters into policy discussions at all, it's racism. So even if it is just "not even all that much" of someone's reason for being anti-immigrant, then they're a fucking racist.

And lastly I'll close by repeating my rationale for the race comment that started you down this line of argument. When a person abandons immigration for a number of stated reasons, then does an about face on those reasons whenever it's convenient to oppress or discourage immigrants, it means those stated reasons aren't really that important to them. The only thing there's any consistency on is keeping Mexicans out.

6/5/2009 2:22:40 AM

surely you understand that even the purest of souls makes decisions that partly involve race, whether he intends to or not. Yet we would rarely call this person a racist...

6/5/2009 12:42:10 PM

I fucking hate that cop-out. "Everyone's a little racist...it's OK"

No, they aren't, and no, it isn't.

But I love how you keep shrinking the race factor as time goes on. For a while, the issue was "entangled with race," but now the race question is limited to the recesses of the minds of "even the purest souls."

6/5/2009 12:50:51 PM

so, you deny that people naturally have prejudices?

6/5/2009 4:11:36 PM

No. I deny that "naturally" is an excuse.

6/6/2009 2:31:06 AM

hello media

LATINOS

I"M NOT EVEN WORRIED ABOUT LEGAL STATUS

ALL PEOPLE OF HISPANIC NATURE AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED

THAT'S COOL

MEXICO = GUATEMALA


EUROPEANS

ALL PEOPLE OF EUROPEAN NATURE AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED

I"M NOT EVEN WORRIED ABOUT LEGAL STATUS

THAT'S COOL

IRISH = GERMAN


ASIANS

ALL PEOPLE OF ASIAN NATURE AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED

I"M NOT EVEN WORRIED ABOUT LEGAL STATUS

THAT'S COOL

CHINESE = JAPANESE

6/6/2009 2:42:47 AM