^^ Subtle racism generally causes more anxiety than overt racism. http://www.psychologicalscience.org/onlyhuman/2007/09/racisms-cognitive-toll.cfm

Quote :

" white volunteers were more impaired by overt racism than by the more ambiguous discrimination. Salvatore and Shelton figure this is because whites rarely experience any racism; they don’t even notice the subtle forms of racism, and are thrown off balance when they are hit over the head by overt acts. Many blacks, by contrast, have developed coping strategies for the most hateful kinds of racism; it’s the constant, vague, just-below-the-surface acts of racism that impair performance, day in and day out."

Which makes sense... if a guy is running around calling people niggers, youre going to think he's just an idiot. But if someone is being subtly racist, you're more concerned with if he thinks YOU'RE an idiot, and what will his reactions be?

[Edited on July 28, 2009 at 11:27 PM. Reason : ]

7/28/2009 11:24:04 PM

I was in San Juan and abunch of kids called me a Gringo.

I thought they were going to stab me.

7/28/2009 11:29:11 PM

Quote :

"are you really that fucking ignorant?"

Joe douchebag, I just want an answer. Instead of you and whoever insulting me why don't you clarify why "colored" is a racially charged word. And then explain to me why the NAACP still calls themselves that.

Sorry I grew up in NJ where I didn't deal with much racism shit.

7/28/2009 11:56:55 PM

uuuuuuuuuuuuh

PEOPLE FROM JERSEY IS FUCKING RACIST AS SHIT.

every ethnic group hates every other ethnic group. Its a shit fest.

im not saying you're wrong about the colored thing but seriously lets not lie about Jersey here.

7/28/2009 11:59:49 PM

n-double-a-c-p just has a certain ring to it.

7/29/2009 12:00:12 AM

7/29/2009 12:03:48 AM

Quote :

"Subtle racism generally causes more anxiety than overt racism"

This may be true, but I would expect him to give an example of an actual, discrete crime committed against him. What he gave was an ambiguous response from an aiport clerk in a decade that was just beginning to see black people rise to top level positions in the President's staff. Racial profiling is wrong, not to be expected, though unfortunate.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 9:01 AM. Reason : .]

7/29/2009 8:54:16 AM

Question on the examples of subtle racism posted in this thread...

Quote :

"During the renovation workers would often take Gates for a servant and ask to be pointed to the house’s owner. The drivers of delivery trucks made the same mistake. The message was unmistakable: What was a black man doing living in a place like this?"

Quote :

"Nobody thought I could possibly be the national security adviser to the president... It was inconceivable to him that a black guy could be the national security adviser."

How did Gates and Powell know the people in their stroies were actually being racist? Do the people in question just shout out something like "damn, I never could have imagined a black man could own a big house"?

Just wondering.

7/29/2009 9:53:28 AM

^^^I get it, but i'm sure they were called black back then too. So...? Just wondering.

Quote :

"PEOPLE FROM JERSEY IS FUCKING RACIST AS SHIT. every ethnic group hates every other ethnic group. Its a shit fest. im not saying you're wrong about the colored thing but seriously lets not lie about Jersey here."

I'm not talking about "just outside of NYC" Jersey. Not to sound like a total prick, but there were very few black people in the 3 towns in NJ that I grew up in (HS had like 13 black kids). Public school too. Racism seemed much more prevelant (or maybe just talked/joked about) when I moved to NC.

Now when I lived in NYC people call each other every ethnic slur you can think of, but nobody cares (and we're mainly talking european only)

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 10:14 AM. Reason : k]

7/29/2009 10:14:08 AM

TKE-Teg speaks truth. My gf grew up in East Hampton NY where there were maybe a handful of black people at her high school. For the most part they were fully integrated with teh rest of the social population of whites.

Coming to college here in UNCW she was just in shock at the amount of racist comments by many people and the social divide/tension between the underpriviledged black population and the rest of society.

7/29/2009 10:35:25 AM

I went to high school right outside of Fairfield County in CT and there were 3 non-whites (2 black guys and a dominican girl) in my graduating class of 400 people.

I was less than 45 miles outside of New York City.

^ LOL, East Hampton is like three hours outside of NYC and is a world unto itself... Growing up in any NYC suburb in NJ or CT is about a 180 from growing up in the Hamptons...

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason : and has Glenn Beck seen this thread yet?]

7/29/2009 11:50:27 AM

TKE-Teg & HUR, So I guess racism is not a problem in areas with relatively homogeneous populations. Boy that's a shock.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 12:00 PM. Reason : ``]

7/29/2009 11:58:09 AM

I disagree with most that was just said. People who have direct contact with other ethnic groups on a daily basis seem to be less racist.

examples...

My extended family lives in Elk River, MN which is some smallish town outside of the Twin Cities and they are extremely racist. They hate all the Somalians and spew racial slurs quite often. There are no black people anywhere near them unless they go to outside of elk river.

Also people in Chicago call black people "Mondays". Because everyone hates mondays.

it makes sense because Chicago is one of the most segregated cities Ive ever been to. They dont interact with each other.

7/29/2009 12:08:44 PM

I've lived in NC, alabama, and maine. In alabama you had the traditional deep south racism brought on by ignorance and stupidity. In maine you have institutionalized pity based racism (A black person! oh isn't that cute! surely they must need special help). In high school in NC it was like 40% white 25% black 25% hispanic 10% misc and no one really cared about race (as far as i could tell).

In all cases there was plenty of non-institutional racism. Its just always funny to hear people in maine talk up diversity when its probably the least diverse place in the nation.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason : a]

7/29/2009 12:36:11 PM

Quote :

"So I guess racism is not a problem in areas with relatively homogeneous populations. Boy that's a shock."

To be a largely homogeneous population I have heard allusions that Japanese people are some of the most racist of any race.

7/29/2009 12:41:21 PM

I would contribute that to the fact that they think they're the greatest people on earth. Its a very similar situation as the whites in Europe. They held power for so long that they think they are in fact the most Superior of races on the planet.

and constant warfare with the Chinese and Koreans which in tern makes them hate each other.

7/29/2009 12:44:03 PM

Quote :

"^^ Subtle racism generally causes more anxiety than overt racism."

Honestly, who gives a shit about causing anxiety in others? Unless someone is offensive or deliberately harmful then it's just bullshit.

Quote :

"But if someone is being subtly racist, you're more concerned with if he thinks YOU'RE an idiot, and what will his reactions be?"

If his reactions are breaking laws, then fine. Otherwise, quit giving a fuck what other people think about you.

I'm not sold on Colin Powell or Gates being discriminated against because someone didn't immediately recognize them as important people.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 1:58 PM. Reason : .]

7/29/2009 1:57:01 PM

^ you're right, humans would be better off without emotions. Why did god curse us so?

7/29/2009 1:58:45 PM

No, humans would be better off if they stopped caring what other people thought of them. What other people DO to them is what's important.

7/29/2009 1:59:50 PM

^ you're an idiot.

It is inherent in our nature to care what other people think about you, and on top of that, what other people think about you has a direct effect on what they would do to you.

7/29/2009 2:00:32 PM

If they went around asking all the white people if they were the owner of the big house/gen powell and ignored the black people that would be racism.

In gates case, if hes in the middle of a bunch of people moving stuff it makes perfect sense to ask if he knows who the owner is. In Powells case, unless hes sitting there in his general uniform how are they going to know its him?

7/29/2009 2:06:31 PM

So would you prefer to outlaw racist thoughts? Is it not your unalienable right to hate people based on whatever the hell you choose?

Unless Colin Powell or Gates are psychic, they have no idea that the "treatment" they received as a direct result of the racist thoughts of the people they were interacting with.

Without resorting to name-calling, I'll disagree that is in our nature to care what other people think about you. If it really is physically in our nature, I'd suggest that it's something we can do without.

7/29/2009 2:10:37 PM

^ Outlaw racists thoughts? Where did you get that from? How would you even do that? And I don't think you are understanding the concept of "hate" properly, because the statement you made makes no sense.

And you don't have to be psychic to pick up on peoples' prejudices. People communicate in various ways that go beyond the literal syntax of their spoken words... but of course you know this. For example, why guys/girls flirt with each other, there is a lot more going on that what they are just saying to each other.

With everyone you talk to, you have various different cues along the same lines, that convey different subtleties that relate to the context of what you're trying to say. It's another reason why it's so easy to miscommunicate information via email or the itnernet.

And you may disagree that humans are naturally emotional, but you'd be wrong. Just look around you and you will see why. The entirety of the reason the world is the way it is is because we can't get away from our emotions.

7/29/2009 2:19:02 PM

My distinction is racist thoughts vs. racist action. I submit that it's AOK to have racist thoughts as long as you don't commit any racist action.

Your response to this was

Quote :

"And you don't have to be psychic to pick up on peoples' prejudices. People communicate in various ways that go beyond the literal syntax of their spoken words... but of course you know this. For example, why guys/girls flirt with each other, there is a lot more going on that what they are just saying to each other."

So are you saying that the guy had racist body language and towards Colin Powell and inferred racism though his context? shudder

When I say that you should stop giving a shit what other people think about you, of course I mean that you shouldn't care if other people think negatively about you.

7/29/2009 2:24:11 PM

^ Racist thoughts (or any negative thought) is inevitably going to translate to racist actions. Thoughts, not unlike emotions, are very closely related to what we humans do, you know.

And the guy had more than racist body language towards Powell, he had racist actions (or inaction, from Powell's description). Powell knew relatively quickly because of his behavior that he explicitly couldn't trust him, which is going to make him uneasy. Knowing that you can't trust someone is distinct form not knowing if you can trust someone.

7/29/2009 2:32:04 PM

Quote :

" Racist thoughts (or any negative thought) is inevitably going to translate to racist actions"

I disagree. You can hate someone without doing anything to them. You can lust after someone without raping them or even looking at them inappropriately. I can imagine the fiery deaths of the people that tailgate me without actually causing them to crash. It's called self-control, and although it may not be in our animal nature, luckily human beings have evolved quite a bit. It's also not in our nature to wear clothing.

Shit, I can be an asshole to you for no reason other than I'm having a shitty day. If you have a different skin color than me, would you automatically assume it was due to racism?

7/29/2009 2:43:10 PM

^ i'm not saying you are going to punch or kill a black person if you hate blacks, but you are going to look at the differently, or take a particular tone of voice. Most people would, anyway.

If you hate blacks, but you do everything you can to hide it, then you have other issues to deal with (i can't imagine being racist, but being ashamed of it is healthy for your mind).

Quote :

"Shit, I can be an asshole to you for no reason other than I'm having a shitty day. If you have a different skin color than me, would you automatically assume it was due to racism?"

If you weren't being racist, then probably not. The coloreds have shitty days too, you know.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 2:45 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2009 2:44:53 PM

Quote :

"Racist thoughts (or any negative thought) is inevitably going to translate to racist actions."

Just like kids playing violent video games inevitably translate into violent actions

Just like having a hardon for the hottest chick in the office inevitably translates into innapropriate office behavior

7/29/2009 3:29:32 PM

^ i'd say i was surprised that you gathered that from what I said, but you have a history of being an idiot.

7/29/2009 3:37:59 PM

moron, that's the sentiment that I'm getting from you too.

I posited that thoughts don't matter, actions do. You responded that thoughts lead to actions. Does this only apply to racist thoughts?

7/29/2009 3:40:45 PM

^^

then you're a pretty dense little turd arent you?

Its pretty conclusive that playing violent video games shows aggression in the brain during that time. Your line of thinking indicates that aggression will then inevitably lead to the kid acting on that aggression.

Just like a guy having thoughts of hitting on the hot secretary. I mean he is thinking it, obviously theres NO other outcome than for him to eventually hit on said secretary.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 3:54 PM. Reason : cant get my ' right]

7/29/2009 3:54:30 PM

If you have prejudices, its going to affect your behavior whether you want it to or not, in ways you're not even aware of. That's just human nature. You either have prejudices or you don't.

That said, I don't think one can extrapolate anything from Powell's example. There are no details. We can only assume some racist comments were made during the incident to make Powell believe the people he was dealing with were prejudiced against him.

7/29/2009 3:59:36 PM

or we can maybe assume that white people arent the only ones that have prejudiced thoughts/feelings and maybe mr powell was a victim of those thoughts/feelings and we are seeing the effects in his behavior.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:02 PM. Reason : g'dit]

7/29/2009 4:01:58 PM

Why not give him the benefit of the doubt? Why assume he has those feelings? If you read the article, he present's a very even-handed opinion regarding the whole Gates issue.

Maybe you're...prejudiced!

7/29/2009 4:06:19 PM

Well its my opinion that everyone is prejudiced to an extent. There is nowhere on earth that you can be raised and live without having life experiences that affect how you view the world and people around you.

The key is knowing that prejudice when it surfaces and recognizing when it is irrational.

But, I guess if we're doomed to act on these thoughts anyways theres no point in trying!

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:19 PM. Reason : better stated]

7/29/2009 4:17:19 PM

i cant keep up with this thread

7/29/2009 4:19:00 PM

Quote :

"Its pretty conclusive that playing violent video games shows aggression in the brain during that time. Your line of thinking indicates that aggression will then inevitably lead to the kid acting on that aggression. Just like a guy having thoughts of hitting on the hot secretary. I mean he is thinking it, obviously theres NO other outcome than for him to eventually hit on said secretary."

lol, are you kidding? Do you not realize there is a difference between the fleeting sense of excitement from playing a game or seeing an attractive woman, and the more permanent thoughts shaped by your background and upbringing?

And i'm going to post this link again, and I recommend that you read it: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/onlyhuman/2007/09/racisms-cognitive-toll.cfm

Just because you can't perceive something doesn't mean it's not there.

Quote :

"Well its my opinion that everyone is prejudiced to an extent. There is nowhere on earth that you can be raised and live without having life experiences that affect how you view the world and people around you."

Haha, do you really think that this self-evident statement is merely "your opinion?" This statement is so plainly obvious that it has no bearing on this discussion, or any discussion, except maybe when interviewing an 11 year old for their opinion on race relations.

Quote :

"The key is knowing that prejudice when it surfaces and recognizing when it is irrational. But, I guess if we're doomed to act on these thoughts anyways theres no point in trying! "

You're not doomed to act on the thoughts. The whole point of Powell pointing out the incident is so that people can realize when they may be unduly prejudice and, as you say, recognize that it's irrational.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:23 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2009 4:19:48 PM

You're the moron that suggested thoughts = actions, not me bucko.

7/29/2009 4:21:14 PM

Quote :

"NOT ME BUDDY"

7/29/2009 4:22:28 PM

^^ So you're saying that actions aren't based on thoughts? Interesting.

7/29/2009 4:23:51 PM

Nope

I am saying x thoughts dont inevitably result in x actions.

Quote :

"Racist thoughts (or any negative thought) is inevitably going to translate to racist actions."

And just to be clear

I don't disagree with what I think is the idea behind what you're saying. I agree that prejudice (that you're aware of or not) can manifest itself in your behavior.

I don't think its anywhere close to a guarantee though.


[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:29 PM. Reason : V read edit]

7/29/2009 4:25:53 PM

If you're weren't so busy playing your victimized white male game, you'd have realized that my use of the word "thoughts" there clearly refer to the thoughts ingrained in someone's thought patterns, not any fleeting thought they may have on a daily basis.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:29 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2009 4:28:21 PM

Way to even pretend to be aware of what my argument actually is

7/29/2009 4:30:41 PM

I have extended family whom are overtly racist behind closed doors but would not do or say anything harmful to black people to my knowledge.

Is it a problem to you that they are racist at home but are nice to everyone regardless of their ethnicity in public?

As a personal note, I'm not a fan of their language and such at home, but it's their home so they can do whatever the fuck they want IMO.

7/29/2009 4:30:59 PM

^ your assertion that they aren't racist in public is very dubious.

If they are racist at home, then they are despicable human beings, and I have a problem with that. But if you're asking if i'm going to roll in their with a baseball bat, or something, and beat them around, obviously not. There are far too many racist, and frankly bigger issues, for me to pay that much attention to them.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:33 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2009 4:32:00 PM

Go fuck yourself. I love them and I know them. It's unfortunate that they have racist sentiments but I know for a fact that they would never harm a person unless they were protecting their family or their property.

7/29/2009 4:33:54 PM

^^ almost as dubious as the assertion that because someone grew up in a racist/prejudice environment that they will act racist and prejudice

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:35 PM. Reason : *]

7/29/2009 4:35:01 PM

^ i never remotely came close to making that assertion.\

^^ i'm not talking about your despicable family "harming" a person. And you seem to be really emotionally upset about my negative opinion of your hillbilly racist family.

I'm talking about more subtle things like glossing over their resume, or not providing them the same level of service they would to a white person, or various other subtle things people sometimes do without realizing it.

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:37 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2009 4:35:45 PM

Quote :

"Racist thoughts (or any negative thought) is inevitably going to translate to racist actions."

Quote :

"You're not doomed to act on the thoughts."

7/29/2009 4:40:24 PM

^ how does that say someone is doomed to be a product of their environment?

[Edited on July 29, 2009 at 4:43 PM. Reason : ]

7/29/2009 4:42:33 PM