$2T


It'd be nice if Ted Kennedy had died when Ted Kennedy had died. If he cared that much about others he would have donated more than 1% of his income (at least when he ran for president in 1980) to them.


You're not noble for taking money out of my pocket to assuage your guilt.

9/9/2009 8:57:24 PM

I especially liked Joe's attempt to wipe away a tear from his non-existent/botox fucked tear ducts

9/9/2009 8:58:16 PM

Quote :

"And not even one speech without mentioning how much the last administration spent . . . despite the fact that his budget has dwarfed the last."

shall we put labels next to the breakdown of the 2009 budget for which parts came under which president?


or how much of the deficit has come from the plummeting tax receipts from this recession?

9/9/2009 8:58:39 PM

Here's my problem with what he said earlier. He compared health insurance to car insurance. That people should be required to have health insurance for the same reason that people are required to have car insurance.

People are NOT required to have car insurance. Drivers are required to have car insurance, and driving is a privilege, not a right. People can choose to drive, and thus they choose to have car insurance.

9/9/2009 8:59:01 PM

I still wanna know about that 5% number......anyone?

9/9/2009 9:00:14 PM

Quote :

"People are NOT required to have car insurance. Drivers are required to have car insurance, and driving is a privilege, not a right. People can choose to drive, and thus they choose to have car insurance."

good point. Kind of like how we can choose to live and not get sick, right?

9/9/2009 9:01:01 PM

hey everybody, i'm gonna be on the news!

9/9/2009 9:01:43 PM

Quote :

"So here's my question, assuming that 15% is the current number of uninsured people, then is he saying that we're going through this because 1/3 of the uninsured people in this country actually WANT to be insured? ..... I still wanna know about that 5% number......anyone?"

no - first, he made it a point that "this whole thing" isn't about getting a public option. That is only one part of a much larger picture.
Second, the other reforms in the plan would expand coverage through the "other 10%" (15-5) through private means

9/9/2009 9:02:52 PM

Not having health insurance is a risk yes, but it should not be against the law.

9/9/2009 9:03:21 PM

Quote :

"Not having health insurance is a risk yes, but it should not be against the law."

yeah, and that's the point - if someone takes the risk and doesn't take/have insurance, should they literally be allowed to die with no help if they get cancer or get hit by a bus?

9/9/2009 9:04:34 PM

It's nice to see Obama get back into this mode.

9/9/2009 9:04:50 PM

The car insurance comparison is logically flawed on a deeper level.


When the state compels you to purchase car insurance, it isn't on yourself or your car, it is against anyone you might hit or injure. For the privilege of using state run roadways, you must be willing to cover the potential cost of your negligence.

Health care is inherently personal. Your death might impact your family but it does not, quite frankly, impact me. Your death will not deprive me of my life or property. Your negligence on the highway might.

Quote :

" if someone takes the risk and doesn't take/have insurance, should they literally be allowed to die with no help if they get cancer or get hit by a bus?"

In a word. Yes. If you feel strongly enough that this should not happen, then you need to donate to an organization which provides free health care to those in need.

Now this assumes the cancer and the bus were not a result of other's negligence.<]

9/9/2009 9:05:21 PM

yes

9/9/2009 9:05:31 PM

We did not come here to fear the future. We came here to shape it.

A strong finisher.

He invited discussion of ideas from both sides, and reminded the left that the public option, while he believes it is a good idea, is a means to the end of making health insurance affordable from everyone, and that the left should be open to other ideas & other means to that end even if they come from the right.

9/9/2009 9:06:26 PM

^^^, ^^ ok, thanks for your honesty. That's basically the crux of the issue.

And for your honesty, I'll repeat what I said on the last page:

Quote :

"you guys are heartless SOBs."

[Edited on September 9, 2009 at 9:09 PM. Reason : ,]

9/9/2009 9:07:26 PM

Thank you for clearing this up. I'm sick and tired of hearing this dumb car insurance analogy.

9/9/2009 9:07:26 PM

I did not expect this "Republican Response"

9/9/2009 9:08:31 PM

good to see that the republican counterpoint ignored what Obama just said and attacks the same falsehoods that have been going around for months

9/9/2009 9:08:48 PM

Quote :

"you guys are heartless SOBs."

Unless you're contributing to the organizations I mentioned above, you're an equally heartless but also hypocritical SOB.


At least the Republican response was better than the last time a guy from Louisiana got up to speak nationally.

9/9/2009 9:10:29 PM

So his idea is that there would be JUST private insurance like there is now, but that those that can't afford it will get tax credits for it? So there's no actual public option or co-op....just a food stamp equivalent of health insurance ?

9/9/2009 9:12:30 PM

I'm not heartless - if you choose to not have healthcare, then you should know the consequences - right now there are none, other than you ruining your credit by not paying your medical bills.

I said choice - for those that do not have a choice, that dont have the money, then it should be different. The way Obama phrased it earlier though, he made it sound like there are many young adults out there trouncing around buying junk rather than looking out for themselves. If that is actually the case, then yes, they should be denied care.

9/9/2009 9:12:41 PM

Quote :

"I did not expect this "Republican Response""

Well State of the Unions are about the only time these large speeches to joint sessions happen, and with those there is usually a response from the other side. I think that is just the nature of this large of a speech.

MSNBC just said that the guy who gave the republican response, who said he hopes President Obama was serious when he talked about malpractice reform said this: "He has been sued for malpractice 3 times, he is a birtherer, and he was involved in a scandal where he tried to buy the term english term Lord" (probably didn't get the quote right word for word)

9/9/2009 9:13:08 PM

^^^ No, there will be a non-profit branch of the government acting as a health care provider.


Overall, it was a typical Obama (hell political) speech; long on rousing rhetoric, short on hard numbers, and without the policy chops to back it up.

We'll see if it makes a difference, I don't think it will make much of one.

9/9/2009 9:13:44 PM

Quote :

"if you choose to not have healthcare"

for my own inquisitive means... have you had to buy your own insurance before?

9/9/2009 9:15:50 PM

Overall President Obama did a lot of things to get the republicans to stand & clap, even got a thumbs up from Senator McCain, it was a very civil event. I still can't believe that Republican Congressman Wilson from South Carolina shouted that Obama was a lair during this otherwise very civil speech treating this like it was a crazy town hall.

9/9/2009 9:17:02 PM

Quote :

"Unless you're contributing to the organizations I mentioned above, you're an equally heartless but also hypocritical SOB."

I pay taxes that go towards Medicare and Medicaid, and I would be happy to pay more if it means that nobody else ever has to go bankrupt or die unnecessarily because of medical costs.

Quote :

"if you choose to not have healthcare, then you should know the consequences - right now there are none, other than you ruining your credit by not paying your medical bills."

are you serious......?
really? you think "ruining your credit" is the "only consequence" of not having healthcare?

come on, you're trolling

9/9/2009 9:18:12 PM

someone yelled out 'LIAR'? I missed that damn it

9/9/2009 9:19:01 PM

Quote :

"Health care is inherently personal. Your death might impact your family but it does not, quite frankly, impact me. Your death will not deprive me of my life or property. Your negligence on the highway might."

I have X contagious disease. I don't have health insurance and therefore can't afford to go to a doctor. Rather than get it treated, I continue going to work where I get you, my co-worker, sick.

I don't know, man. Sounds like that would impact you.

9/9/2009 9:21:16 PM

Quote :

". I still can't believe that Republican Congressman Wilson from South Carolina shouted that Obama was a lair during this otherwise very civil speech treating this like it was a crazy town hall. "

Of course they did, these are republicans we're talking about. Not even the factual liar Bush got that sort of disrespect during his state of the union address.

9/9/2009 9:21:25 PM

is there a new bill with no public option? what obama tlaked about tonight was completely different than the bill. was he lying or is there a new bill?

9/9/2009 9:22:15 PM

^ there is no "the bill" despite the fact the right refers to things in "the bill" all the time so that they can also call it socialism & "obamacare", there are many bills & ideas out there.

9/9/2009 9:26:50 PM

Quote :

"what obama tlaked about tonight was completely different than the bill."

and you know this because you read "the bill", right?

oh, wait.... no?
It's because what Obama said doesn't match up with what Fox News, and the rest of the media for that matter, has been telling you?

9/9/2009 9:28:34 PM

Quote :

"Health care is inherently personal. Your death might impact your family but it does not, quite frankly, impact me. Your death will not deprive me of my life or property. Your negligence on the highway might. "

^x5

Even beyond that. It's NOT inherently personal when everyone else is paying for it.

9/9/2009 9:32:56 PM

Quote :

"yeah, and that's the point - if someone takes the risk and doesn't take/have insurance, should they literally be allowed to die with no help if they get cancer or get hit by a bus?"

Yes. that's why it's called a "risk." Durrr. Otherwise you have, well, Fannie and Freddie.

Quote :

"He invited discussion of ideas from both sides"

Really? That's bullshit. He doesn't want discussion. He wants the repubs to roll over and suck his dick. If he wanted discussion, then he wouldn't have tried to ram it down our throats before August. If he wanted discussion, then he would ACTUALLY LISTEN to people. No, he just wants this thing passed now so he can have the government take more control of shit that it has no Constitutional basis to do so

Quote :

"you guys are heartless SOBs."

What have you done recently with YOUR money to help people who don't have health insurance?

Quote :

"I said choice - for those that do not have a choice, that dont have the money, then it should be different. The way Obama phrased it earlier though, he made it sound like there are many young adults out there trouncing around buying junk rather than looking out for themselves. If that is actually the case, then yes, they should be denied care."

A-fucking-men.

Quote :

"I pay taxes that go towards Medicare and Medicaid, and I would be happy to pay more if it means that nobody else ever has to go bankrupt or die unnecessarily because of medical costs. "

You'd be happy to pay more and FORCE OTHERS TO PAY MORE TOO. Not very fucking charitable of you. WHAT HAVE YOU, YOURSELF, DONE WITH ONLY YOUR MONEY TO HELP OTHERS IN NEED OF HEALTHCARE.

Quote :

"I have X contagious disease. I don't have health insurance and therefore can't afford to go to a doctor. Rather than get it treated, I continue going to work where I get you, my co-worker, sick. "

I have diabetes because I sat on my ass every day of my life and ate nothing but bon-bons and BigMac's. You should have to pay for my diabetes treatments and medications, because I am a lazy slob. I could have afforded insurance, but instead I went out and bought lots of xbox games and nice fancy cars. You shouldn't be able to afford those things, because you are responsible and buy health insurance and don't run up credit cards.



Btw, I still want to know when I can "buy the exact same insurance plan that members of Congress purchase." Wasn't that in his campaign stump? Funny how THAT never materialized

9/9/2009 9:34:38 PM

Quote :

"there is no "the bill" despite the fact the right refers to things in "the bill" all the time so that they can also call it socialism & "obamacare", there are many bills & ideas out there."

Well.... the first page of H.R. 3200 states otherwise. I mean it says in pretty big letters 'A BILL'....jus sayin

9/9/2009 9:36:40 PM

Not that this thread shouldn't have discussion about the health care reform points that were discussed, but I'd also like to hear what impact people think this speech will have on A) the public debate B) moving towards a bill making it to President Obama's desk.

9/9/2009 9:37:32 PM

the senate doesn't have a singular bill and they certainly aren't going to pass 3200. so there really isn't one bill.

9/9/2009 9:37:59 PM

Quote :

"Well.... the first page of H.R. 3200 states otherwise. I mean it says in pretty big letters 'A BILL'....jus sayin"

My use of the definite article & quotes there was to highlight that there isn't just one bill.

9/9/2009 9:39:11 PM

i'm so confused just like the most of america.

both sides saying two completely different things. who to believe? obamas now saying theres not even a public option. nothing free just making people buy insurance and regulating it. fox news is saying socialist government takeover of 1/6th of the economy.

9/9/2009 9:43:06 PM

you don't think the 5 different plans have been floating around for just that reason? To confuse the piss out of people? Come on.

9/9/2009 9:44:00 PM

Republicans = People who are stupid should die.
Democrats = People who are stupid should still probably be treated.

BTW -- I donate to the Red Cross. So fuck off with that rhetoric.

9/9/2009 9:47:32 PM

Quote :

"i'm so confused just like the most of america. both sides saying two completely different things. who to believe? obamas now saying theres not even a public option."

What I got from it was that President Obama was saying the public option is something he thinks is a good idea, but that the left should be open to ideas of other means to the same end of providing affordable health insurance for all, even if those ideas come from the right.

9/9/2009 9:48:01 PM

Quote :

"Democrats = People who are stupid should still probably be treated."

No, Democrats = People who are stupid shouldn't feel the consequences of their stupidity.

9/9/2009 9:53:08 PM

^ If it comes to them dying because of it, then yes you are exactly right.

9/9/2009 9:53:50 PM

I know. How dare someone deal with the consequences of their actions

9/9/2009 9:54:14 PM

How dare you allow people to die, you heartless piece of shit.

9/9/2009 9:55:55 PM

How dare someone HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS

9/9/2009 9:57:31 PM

i'll ask my question again....


for the people who are against this healthcare reform, have any of you tried to buy your own health insurance when your employer doesn't provide it?

9/9/2009 9:59:43 PM

How dare you allow people to die, you heartless piece of shit.

Look, mine's in bold and underlined.

[Edited on September 9, 2009 at 10:01 PM. Reason : whatever]

9/9/2009 10:00:58 PM

why does that matter? this "reform" doesn't fix that. it will actually make it much worse

HOW DARE SOMEONE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS.

Look up the term "moral hazard." You just might learn something.

Maybe, just maybe, if people actually had to face the consequences of their actions, THEY MIGHT CHANGE THEIR ACTIONS!!! What a crazy idea. I mean, we could fix the problem with no gov't intrusion into our lives. How crazy is that?

fuck off, troll

[Edited on September 9, 2009 at 10:03 PM. Reason : ]

9/9/2009 10:01:25 PM