[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 1:43 PM. Reason : BOOGIE BOOGIE]

11/10/2009 12:27:41 PM

Quote :

"ever, my IQ is higher than yours....I graduated with 2 engineering degrees and currently working on my masters. I'm a Sr. Chemical Engineer in one of the most competitive companies in the country to work for......"

I desperately wish I could detect sarcasm or an attempt at humor in this.

bigun, are you noen's little brother?

11/10/2009 12:28:21 PM

don't worry, bigun20 is one of the dumbest people to ever post in the soap box

11/10/2009 12:49:20 PM

rabble rabble rabble

my ideologies are flawless and better than yours

rabble rabble rabble



youre stupid because you dont agree with me


rabble rabble rabble

[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 12:53 PM. Reason : / end thread. that's as far as you will all get.]

11/10/2009 12:52:37 PM

I see your point, but quite often the truth doesn't lie "somewhere in the middle."

11/10/2009 12:53:46 PM

Quote :

"if anything, socialism ENCOURAGES a mainstream. "

JEEN JEKKIT SPEND JEKKIT RATION ON MY JEEN JEKKIT

11/10/2009 1:28:35 PM

Quote :

"I see your point, but quite often the truth doesn't lie "somewhere in the middle.""

That's true. What I haven't managed to understand is how people (like you) have been convinced that the best government policies involve stripping down individual rights and confiscating people's earnings to pay for unconstitutional programs. I'm sure you claim that you support individual rights, but you're willing to completely disregard a person's right to keep their earnings (except for a small percentage, which allows the government to perform duties required by the constitution). To me, economic freedom is just as important as any other kind of freedom. I view it as another civil liberty that is taken away by politicians for the purpose of buying votes.

11/10/2009 1:51:10 PM

I don't know how you expect the government to pay for anything without taxes.

11/10/2009 1:53:33 PM

Quote :

"except for a small percentage, which allows the government to perform duties required by the constitution"

11/10/2009 1:54:24 PM

That's what's happening now.

11/10/2009 1:54:45 PM

No, it's not. A large percentage is taken out of most people's earnings. Programs like Social Security and Medicare are not constitutional. Aggressive wars that aren't actually declared aren't constitutional. Sure, you can look at the general welfare clause and use that as justification to enact any entitlement program. The founders clearly stated, in many places, that "general welfare" shouldn't be interpreted that way.

11/10/2009 1:58:36 PM

Let's literally follow the constitution.

*counts black people as 3/5ths a person*

11/10/2009 2:00:36 PM

The three fifths clause is not considered a valid part of the constitution, due to the 13th and 14th amendments.

11/10/2009 2:05:18 PM

Neither is your mom.

11/10/2009 2:06:18 PM

Lets use "the defense of the constitution" for one argument and then in the next breath, void it entirely

11/10/2009 2:11:09 PM

SOUTH PARK DID IT!

11/10/2009 2:14:03 PM

^^You realize that there's a defined process in the constitution for making amendments, right? It's a lot harder to pass an amendment than a normal law. Just because the constitution has changed over the years doesn't mean that everything in it can be ignored. You ignore the parts that have been thrown out because of amendments.

11/10/2009 2:18:12 PM

For that matter why do we have the FDA because IT'S NOT IN THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION

11/10/2009 2:19:52 PM

i think you "missed"

i was trolling that other guy

[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 2:21 PM. Reason : ^that "guy"]

11/10/2009 2:20:34 PM

I believe we should all go back to the times of the industrial revolution when people accidentally fell in meat hoppers and became sausage. Let freedom ring.

11/10/2009 2:22:06 PM

11/10/2009 2:22:29 PM

Quote :

"For that matter why do we have the FDA because IT'S NOT IN THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION"

You could easily make the argument that the general welfare clause allows for things like the FDA. The FDA isn't a spending program; the purpose is to protect people from other individuals/groups of individuals that may attempt to give them drugs that have harmful effects. I don't see a problem with that.

With universal healthcare or something like that, you aren't protecting anyone from anyone else. You're just giving people a service paid for by the rest of the population.

Quote :

"i was trolling that other guy"

Yeah, I wasn't sure.

[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 2:36 PM. Reason : ]

11/10/2009 2:31:33 PM

tbqh, you can derive constitutionality out of just about anything the gov't does using either the general welfare clause, the commerce clause, and the notion of substantive due process derived from the 14th amendment.



[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 2:43 PM. Reason : penumbras!]

11/10/2009 2:42:48 PM

Quote :

"Never, my IQ is higher than yours....I graduated with 2 engineering degrees and currently working on my masters. I'm a Sr. Chemical Engineer in one of the most competitive companies in the country to work for......"

Oh boy do you want a gold star?

11/10/2009 3:33:07 PM

damn

beergolf disappeared from this thread in a hurry

11/10/2009 3:46:52 PM

Quote :

"With universal healthcare or something like that, you aren't protecting anyone from anyone else. You're just giving people a service paid for by the rest of the population."

Which, ironically, is exactly how health insurance works.

Or did you actually think your premiums added up to completely pay for that 30,000$ toe cast.

11/10/2009 4:37:18 PM

^2 Probably because it's a waste of time

Joie said it best

11/10/2009 4:38:08 PM

No, she didn't.

11/10/2009 4:39:59 PM

Quote :

"Which, ironically, is exactly how health insurance works."

Insurance, when administered by a private entity, isn't paid for by the rest of the population. It's paid for by the other people that choose to participate in the plan. I'm not sure why it's ironic that it works that way. I know how insurance companies function, I just don't want the government to be functioning in the same capacity.

11/10/2009 4:42:46 PM

yeah except you're also paying profit to a company

11/10/2009 4:43:53 PM

A smaller pool of money with a profit motive verse a vastly larger pool of money without a profit motive.

If you had an iota of a clue of how insurance works, the answer as to which of those is superior is more obvious then the God damn sun.

11/10/2009 4:45:53 PM

^^Uhh, yeah. Are they supposed to provide the service for free? When you pay for anything, you accept that a percentage of that payment is going to be profit for the seller.

Quote :

"A smaller pool of money with a profit motive verse a vastly larger pool of money without a profit motive."

The first option is better than the second. Without profit motive, there's no incentive to be efficient. There's no incentive to control costs. There isn't even an incentive to provide decent service, because you're just taking money from a bottomless pit of government money.

Quote :

"If you had an iota of a clue of how insurance works, the answer as to which of those is superior is more obvious then the God damn sun."

I think I know a lot more about how insurance works than you do.

Quote :

"Paying for profit benefits you how?"

It allows the seller to continue providing the service. People don't just do things for free. There has to be some reason to innovate or provide a quality service. I'm sure you're familiar with capitalism, even if you hate it.


[Edited on November 10, 2009 at 4:51 PM. Reason : ]

11/10/2009 4:47:06 PM

I'll try and break this down in simple internet style:

They both cost money.

One involves profit.

Paying for profit benefits you how?

11/10/2009 4:49:38 PM

^^

11/10/2009 4:53:09 PM

Do we even live on the same planet Fox news?

Are those Dirty Europeans buckling under the weight of their health care systems?

Or is the United States' healthcare (private) system the most expensive in the world by an order of magnitude but ranked in quality below the economic powerhouse known as Morocco.

11/10/2009 4:55:06 PM

Quote :

"Are those Dirty Europeans buckling under the weight of their health care systems?"

They have higher taxes to pay for those systems. We don't even bother, we just create money. But, even if we had the money, I would prefer lower taxes and more money in my pocket than having government provide a service that I don't think it should provide.

Quote :

"Or is the United States' healthcare (private) system the most expensive in the world by an order of magnitude but ranked in quality below the economic powerhouse known as Morocco."

It's expensive because of government involvement. The price of being trained in the medical profession is incredibly high, and tax subsidies on healthcare result in increased costs for the provider, which turns into higher prices for consumers.

11/10/2009 4:59:47 PM

Which circles back to my original point. You don't have the slightest idea how health care works.

These points will blow over your confused little head, but I'll leave them in exiting the threada anyway.

-Insurance companies, or 'providers' don't 'provide' health care. Medical professionals provide healthcare. Insurance companies are only the intermediaries between you and your doctor. The middle man. You know who else is a middle man in the same exact manner? A car dealership.

-There are many providers. However, they aren't forced to compete with each other. You've clearly never tried to buy stand alone health insurance. Its freakishly expensive, the exclusion lists massive, and deductibles high. On top of that, keeping track of all those providers comes with a nice double digit overhead penalty which isn't going to be absorbed by the medical providers or the insurance companies, but rather, you. Paying extra for nothing is really sweet.

-Insurance provided health care also isn't free. It costs me 120$ a month. If I had a family 150$+ for the cheap stuff, 220+ for the good stuff, depending on how virile I am. Thats of course, ignoring the costs eaten by my company. Did I mention that the recession has caused a lot of American companies to pass these costs on to consumers and scale back on coverage?

-And what happens if you have chronic illness? I know you probably couldn't do the math on multiple 750$ deductible visits associated with a chronic illness in your head without getting an overflow error, but take my word: that sort of thing can really add up.

-Our system isn't expensive because medical school costs money either. Its expensive because you're paying 30% more for share holder profits. Now I'm a capitalist through and through, but even I'm uneasy about relying on a company whose entire business plan is structured around taking my money, and treating me as little as possible when I'm sick. That goes against common sense.

Later gater.

11/10/2009 5:20:48 PM

Quote :

"Insurance companies, or 'providers' don't 'provide' health care. Medical professionals provide healthcare."

I never said the insurance carriers provide health care, they just help pay for it. The health care providers do provide health care, though. A health care provider is anyone that provides health care...doctor, nurse, whatever. How do you not know that?

Quote :

"Insurance companies are only the intermediaries between you and your doctor. The middle man. You know who else is a middle man in the same exact manner? A car dealership."

They have become intermediaries, yes. Insurance used to be for catastrophic events, now it's for preventive and basic care. Having comprehensive coverage can only drive up premiums.

Quote :

"There are many providers. However, they aren't forced to compete with each other. You've clearly never tried to buy stand alone health insurance. Its freakishly expensive, the exclusion lists massive, and deductibles high. On top of that, keeping track of all those providers comes with a nice double digit overhead penalty which isn't going to be absorbed by the medical providers or the insurance companies, but rather, you. Paying extra for nothing is really sweet."

Providers still have to compete with each other. People know that some doctors are better than others. I have bought stand alone health insurance. It's expensive, but worth it, when you think about the alternative. And, you really aren't paying extra for nothing. Even if there were no insurance companies, treatment for cancer would be very expensive. Insurance allows you to pay for something like that without going broke.

Quote :

"Insurance provided health care also isn't free. It costs me 120$ a month. If I had a family 150$+ for the cheap stuff, 220+ for the good stuff, depending on how virile I am. Thats of course, ignoring the costs eaten by my company. Did I mention that the recession has caused a lot of American companies to pass these costs on to consumers and scale back on coverage?"

No one said it was free.

Quote :

"And what happens if you have chronic illness? I know you probably couldn't do the math on multiple 750$ deductible visits associated with a chronic illness in your head without getting an overflow error, but take my word: that sort of thing can really add up."

Most plans have out of pocket maximums. If you know that you have an illness like that, pay a higher premium for better coverage. Or, you could try paying for it with no insurance. Good luck with that.

Quote :

"Our system isn't expensive because medical school costs money either. Its expensive because you're paying 30% more for share holder profits. Now I'm a capitalist through and through, but even I'm uneasy about relying on a company whose entire business plan is structured around taking my money, and treating me as little as possible when I'm sick. That goes against common sense."

You should admit that medical school costs have something to do with the cost of doctors. You're not paying more money for profits, you're paying for a service from the insurance company. Do you think if the insurance companies went away, health care would become cheap?

11/10/2009 8:35:38 PM

god damn this thread is hilarious

11/10/2009 8:52:53 PM

indeed

11/17/2009 12:00:30 AM

Quote :

"good thread"

Quote :

"" ahahahahaha""

Quote :

"Who's gonna put down the kitchen floor in the ivory tower?"

"apparently beergolftile"


lol

11/17/2009 5:15:14 PM