karma has a funny way of biting people in the ass

11/16/2009 3:53:18 AM

lol. It's funny how people's hatred of Belicheck makes them want to call out any risk he takes.

Let's just take a look here.

There's just over 2 minutes let in the game, you're up by 6. One other other side of the field Payton f'ing Manning is sitting there, just waiting for you. He's already gotten them 4 touchdowns in the game and two minutes is more than enough time to get another. At best you'll get him the ball around the 30 yard line and while 70 yards in 2 minutes ain't easy, it sure ain't hard for Manning when he wants it.

On your side of the field, you've got Brady, Welker, and Moss.

Maybe you should give Manning those 2 minutes and 70 yards. Maybe the risk is too much. But to say it's a 100% bad call is to completely ignore the situation that Belicheck was in at that point.

11/16/2009 7:02:11 AM

i will preface this by saying:
1. i was asleep by the point of the call in question
2. i hate belicheck and the patriots and am thrilled they lost...but i'm not sure the call is as dumb as everyone is making it out to be.

you figure the patriots have a 75% chance of making it on 4th and 1.5. if they make it, the game is over. if they don't make it, the colts have what, a 80% chance of scoring a TD from the pats 30 and winning the game? so effectively, an 80% chance of winning including if they go for it.

if they kick it and give the ball to the colts with 2 minutes to go and ~70 yards to go...what are the chances the pats stop them? 40%? this is peyton manning and the colts at home we're talking about.

so if they go for it, ~80% chance of winning...if they don't go for it, ~40% chance of winning.

granted, by going for it and coming up short, belicheck looks like a complete idiot and may have ruined the pats season (though i doubt it - they have a bunch of mentally tough veterans who should be able to recover from a heartbreaking loss like this). but percentage wise, i don't think he made the wrong call.

11/16/2009 7:05:17 AM

Indeed.

Beyond that, I don't think a dumb call is what everyone here thinks it is. If you look at the play and say "well, there's no way that would have worked" then that was a dumb call. A dumb call is being on 3rd and 10 and throwing a 4 yard slant route. Or not calling timeout when you're in scoring range with 15 seconds to go before halftime and the clock is ticking.

Those are dumb calls, there's no excuse for them. This was a risky call, if it works out it pays off big time and Bellicheck is heralded again as a genius (like that 2 point safety a few years back). It didn't pay off and bit him in the ass, but that's the risk he took.

Risky calls are not the same thing as dumb calls.

11/16/2009 7:25:31 AM

No you don't understand. The Wolf Web and their hatred of the Patriots and their coach obviously knows more than a guy who has won 3 Superbowls and is arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time.

11/16/2009 7:26:15 AM

^ exactly, I mean, unless I am wrong no one on TWW has played in the NFL so I dont even know why we have any NFL based threads because we can say a single word about anything that we havent done ourselves.

11/16/2009 7:54:20 AM

Who said that? Did he said that? Did anyone actually say that in the thread?

11/16/2009 7:56:16 AM

he had to call that play... because it was the only play in modern foozball left to call, he was hampered by fate (And idiocism).

right under the heading: "Dumbest Call in the History of Sport: _________" It was blank

11/16/2009 7:57:46 AM

So you would argue that, as nature abhors a vacuum, Belichick was forced to call that play as an expression of the will of the universe?

Interesting.

11/16/2009 8:00:59 AM

Quote :

"The Wolf Web and their hatred of the Patriots and their coach obviously knows more than a guy who has won 3 Superbowls and is arguably one of the greatest coaches of all time"

which means you cant criticize anyone who has done something you havent yourself



good write up:

Quote :

"1. Bill Belichick has lost his mojo — to Peyton Manning(notes). Belichick’s controversial decision to go for it on fourth-and-2 from New England’s 28, which facilitated the completion of the Colts’ comeback, shouldn’t be surprising considering how the rivalry has gone of late. Early in the decade, Belichick was cited as a defensive mastermind for coming up with pressure schemes that consistently frustrated Manning. From the 2001 season through the 2004 AFC playoffs, New England won six straight over Indianapolis. But then the power shifted, and Indianapolis has now won five of six since November 2005. No longer is Manning fazed by Belichick, and the previously fearless coach now shows great respect for Manning, especially since the Colts’ Super Bowl breakthrough. In the past, Belichick would have had an arrogant confidence that Manning wouldn’t march the field against his defense in the final minutes. What Belichick did Sunday showed little faith in defenders who had played well for most of the game, and who disappointed Tom Brady(notes) and the offensive stars who worked hard to build a lead that deserved better protection. 2. The Colts’ young receivers benefit from Manning’s trust. Manning was frustrated Sunday night because of some misconnections with his two inexperienced targets, Austin Collie(notes) and Pierre Garcon(notes). The Patriots worked to take away go-to tight end Dallas Clark(notes) first and wideout Reggie Wayne(notes) second. Collie and Garcon struggled with consistent physical coverage at times, but they rewarded Manning’s faith with key plays when the Colts outscored New England 21-10 in the fourth quarter. 3. Randy Moss(notes) still can dominate games. Remember when the Jets’ Darrelle Revis(notes) shut down Moss in Week 2? That seems like a distant memory a week before the rematch with New York. Following up the difference-making 71-yard TD he had against Miami last week, Moss, as expected, overwhelmed Indianapolis’ injury-depleted secondary with nine catches for 179 yards and two touchdowns. For New England to approach the offensive juggernaut status it enjoyed in 2007, Moss must keep playing at his highest level."

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 8:18 AM. Reason : d]

11/16/2009 8:12:32 AM

can't believe I feel asleep watching this

fuck you treetwista

11/16/2009 9:05:54 AM

I'm just glad that Belichek finally got his cockiness shuved up his butthole.

11/16/2009 9:28:04 AM

^^ did he wear you out fucking your stink basket or something?

11/16/2009 9:52:21 AM

I mean, we took turns, but thats the gist of of it

11/16/2009 9:53:48 AM

i wouldn't make that call on madden

11/16/2009 10:39:01 AM

NFL groupthink at its worst.

It's funny that none of the many coaching critics raised their voices earlier in the day, when Cincinnati Bengals coach Marvin Lewis took the ball out of Carson Palmer's hands on 3rd and 3 near the Pittsburgh Steeler 25 in the final minutes of that NFL game, with the Bengals leading by only a field goal near the two-minute mark of regulation. In the No Fun League, coaching conservatism is dutifully supported and approved of in most quarters.

11/16/2009 10:40:29 AM

the Wayne TD gave me a 7 pt lead in one fantasy league, but i dont like my chances unless ray rice is injured early

FUCK i just checked the score and apparently they took 2 points away overnight...i hate my espn team

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 10:44 AM. Reason : ]

11/16/2009 10:43:23 AM

How about an onside kick for opening kick off

11/16/2009 10:44:21 AM

The "dumbest call in the history of sport"?

No. It can be argued that it was the right call to make. He took a minimal risk to win the game and it didn't work, and you are just exaggerating it because it was on a large stage with it being Sunday Night football between the Pats and Colts.

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM. Reason : []

11/16/2009 10:54:24 AM

and on your end of the field with 2 minutes left against the best QB in the league at the 2 minute drill

11/16/2009 10:57:51 AM

are you saying it's "Dumbest Call in the History of Sport?"

That's what I was addressing. It's a debatable call, so clearly it isn't the dumbest.

11/16/2009 10:59:28 AM

Quote :

"He took a minimal risk to win the game and it didn't work"

You are a fucking idiot.

Minimal risk = going for it on 4th down at the opponents 35-yard line. You miss, they still have a long way to drive for a score. You go for a long 52-yard field goal, same consequence if you miss, but also only get three points if you make it instead of the possibility of 7 and burning out more clock. If you punt, then there's a good possibility it goes into the endzone anyways, and you get only get a net gain of 15 yards in the field position battle. That is a minimal risk.

What Belichick did was the exact opposite of minimal risk. Just like you are the exact opposite of an intelligent person.

Quote :

"It's a debatable call, so clearly it isn't the dumbest."

It might not be the actual "Dumbest Call in the History of Sport"...but its definitely up there. And it most certainly isn't debatable...unless you're Bill Belichick. I think you would have a hard time finding ANYONE in organized football that would have made that call. And the only reason you might even think it's "debatable" is just because people are talking about it right now and every now and then someone just tries to explain why the call was made...not trying to argue for the call...but just trying to come up for a reason why it was made.

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 11:14 AM. Reason : .]

11/16/2009 11:12:19 AM

Because if you can get a yard you win the game and don't give Manning the 2 minute drill??? It is most certainly debatable.

11/16/2009 11:32:06 AM

They needed two yards. They had just failed to get two yards on the previous play and had almost gotten picked off.

Manning with 70-80 yards, two minutes, one timeout, and he hadn't been having the best game of the season...his young receivers were dropping balls, Dallas Clark was getting shut down, he had already thrown 2 Ints, and had only scored twice in the past 6 drives.

versus:

Manning with 29 yards to go, more than two minutes (extra play because of the 2 minutes warning), and one timeout. Patriots deflated because of the last call, Indy with the excitement of knowing they only have 30yards to go with one of the best QBs ever.


I'd say the chances of Indy scoring in the former scenario is about 25-30%. The chances of Indy scoring in the latter scenario is about 85-90%.

Not debatable. You take that automatic 25% chance versus the possibility of the 90% chance.

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 11:44 AM. Reason : .]

11/16/2009 11:44:41 AM

not debatable? uh, except that Manning had already taken his team ~80 yards twice for Touchdowns in that same quarter

Quote :

"What had the Patriots particularly spooked were Manning's two touchdown drives in the fourth quarter. He twice drove the Colts 79 yards. The first took five plays and 2:46. The second -- after the Patriots grabbed a seemingly safe 13-point lead with four minutes left -- took six plays and 1:49. "

11/16/2009 11:49:49 AM

Did Faulk really get stopped short? Or did he have possession and did the refs give the Pats a bad spot? You know how you can avoid that conundrum in the first place? Punt the fucking ball.

11/16/2009 11:52:23 AM

^^He also had just thrown an interception and punted twice. You can't just pick out the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff. He was basically batting .333 on the past 6 drives.

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 11:53 AM. Reason : .]

11/16/2009 11:53:06 AM

Lost in the shuffle here were the Pats wasting two timeouts in that last 30 seconds, so they couldn't challenge the spot

11/16/2009 11:53:21 AM

Btw I ended up going to sleep at like 8:30 for a good hour and a half before I got up and started drinking for the Panthers game

ugh

11/16/2009 11:56:15 AM

you can't challenge in the last 2:00 right?

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 11:59 AM. Reason : thought it had to be a booth review]

11/16/2009 11:59:05 AM

the play started outside of 2 minutes, so it wasn't eligible for booth review, or it surely would have been

11/16/2009 12:01:27 PM

Yeah...he kinda fucked up in using the timeouts. The first one was semi-legit because I think they had the wrong personnel or something out there...but I guess that probably falls on the coach to begin with. The 2nd one was bad for 2 reasons...as the coach, knowing that you're calling a pass play on 3rd and 2...if we throw an incomplete pass, I'm either punting or going for it. So there shouldn't have been any confusion and they shouldn't have needed to call a timeout. The 2nd reason is...HE SHOULD HAVE FUCKING PUNTED and shouldn't have had to debate whether or not to go for it.

Belichick took a monstrous dump on the play-calling in that last series. And I love it because he's a pompous asshole. I respect him...but he fucked that shit up royally. I would love to see them lose a road playoff game, because this completely fucked their chances of getting HFA for the 2nd round.

^And I've watched the play probably 50 times by now. And if they reviewed it, he would have been closer to the 1st down marker...but I still don't think he gets it. I believe he would have to have gotten right at, or past the 30 yard line, and they marked it a little short of the 29. The review would have had him inches short of the 30. Actually...I probably would have liked a review even more, because knowing it was just inches short would have made it a little more excruciating for the Pats and their fans.

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 12:09 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2009 12:07:19 PM

No, I doubt they would have been able to give him a first down based on replay, but they still would have looked at it, nonetheless

If he catches the ball cleanly, he's past the sticks...but when he bobbles it, he doesn't attain possession until the defender has already moved him backwards, so forward progress doesn't come into play

11/16/2009 12:13:43 PM

how the hell do you fall asleep during that game

although the only thing that kept me watching was Peyton vs. Buccaneers that monday night a few years ago.

11/16/2009 12:15:45 PM

I skipped going to bed Saturday night

11/16/2009 12:17:37 PM

11/16/2009 12:18:32 PM

I probably would have fallen asleep had I not already taken a nap in the middle of the Eagles/Chargers game. That being said, I still almost fell asleep when the Colts remained down 10-17 points for a good part of the 2nd half.

Good thing I stayed awake. That game was ridiculous. Last minute game-winning drives are exciting and all...but you get a lot of those during the season (Rivers against Giants, Favre against 49ers, Palmer against Steelers, just to name a few), but rarely do you get a monumental coaching fuck-up call leading to a game winning touchdown. That's what made this game so special. Icing on the cake was that it was Indy/NE and Belichick and Brady losing in horrible fashion.

11/16/2009 12:19:45 PM

i'd have thought the 0-2 yd line of scrimmage would start a little higher and decrease than what that graph is showing

11/16/2009 12:20:21 PM

Guess I should add some background, they did some statistical studies that showed more coaches should go for it on 4th down and that is what they came up with(the graph).

It is a very interesting read, although not really practical to apply. I just have this image in my mind of Bill looking down at this graph and telling Tom to get his ass back on the field. Thought it would be fun to throw it up though.

As a fan you have to love the call to go for it. I wish more coaches had the balls to do stuff like that, not because it is the right call to make but because it makes for great Monday conversation.

11/16/2009 12:24:24 PM

Personally, I think Brady had more influence over that call than Belicheck

and it was more about his bravado than Belicheck's

Even still, I don't think it was a terrible call...that play works 65-70 percent of the time

11/16/2009 12:26:31 PM

It's not about the 65-70% of the time it does work.

It's about the 30% when it doesn't work that flat out cost a team a huge position game.

Belichick wrestled defeat from the jaws of victory instead of doing what is right and relying on his D to make a stand.

* it will be interesting looking back and seeing if this game causes NE to have to go on the road in the playoffs instead of getting that game at home*

[Edited on November 16, 2009 at 12:31 PM. Reason : *]

11/16/2009 12:29:49 PM

Quote :

"As a fan you have to love the call to go for it. I wish more coaches had the balls to do stuff like that, not because it is the right call to make but because it makes for great Monday conversation. "

As a fan of the game you love it...as a Pats fan you don't.

99% of the time you hear fans boo when a coach trots out the punt team on 4th and 2 and less...no matter where the ball is. I believe the reaction from 100% of Pats fans in this situation was "WTF?!"

11/16/2009 12:30:43 PM

Quote :

"Personally, I think Brady had more influence over that call than Belicheck"

They showed a replay where Brady was walking off the field, then after Belichick gives him a look he's all like, "Shit?! Really??, alright guys, back on the field" They still called a timeout after that, and Brady might have been lobbying to go for it as well...but that decision was all Belichick.

11/16/2009 12:32:30 PM

Quote :

"On your side of the field, you've got Brady, Welker, and Moss."

yet you throw it to Kevin Faulk...

11/16/2009 12:34:26 PM

The result will guarantee the call is universally called wrong. Would the same be true if they converted ?

11/16/2009 12:37:30 PM

^I still think the majority of people would have called it an incorrect call. There definitely would be a small number of analysts saying that it was brilliant to make sure Peyton doesn't get a chance to win the game...but it was such a "if you don't get it, you basically lose the game" type of calls, that I still think it would have gotten a lot of flak.

11/16/2009 12:44:18 PM

Quote :

"As a fan of the game you love it...as a Pats fan you don't. 99% of the time you hear fans boo when a coach trots out the punt team on 4th and 2 and less...no matter where the ball is. I believe the reaction from 100% of Pats fans in this situation was "WTF?!""

Well I'm not a Pats fan so I could care less about that.

But I understand the thought process to a degree. The defense had given up 2 70+ yard drives in the 4th quarter that took 2 minutes or less for them to score. So I'm sure the thinking is, our offense 2 yards, or our defense holding them. With what the Patriots have on offense and how the defense was playing it isn't THAT crazy. Actually the fuck up that is as big is their mishandling of their time outs, which meant they couldn't try to challenge the spot, although not sure if it would have been overturned anyway.

11/16/2009 12:55:57 PM

timswar has it to the T, I am a Giants fan, so you can deduce my Patriots stance...

But Peyton is a monster, and clutch doesn't even begin to describe him, Bellicheck knows if the Colts get the ball back, they will score, thats just how it is. While I would have taken my chances stopping the colts, it was a tough call.

11/16/2009 1:02:42 PM

You guys are as dumb as Belichick.

11/16/2009 1:08:20 PM

I don't think Belichik's call was dumb as much as egomaniacal

I mean, it was the wrong call, plain and simple, but he only made the call because he is cocky

11/16/2009 1:09:27 PM