^What is wrong with that? We blow up 15-20 year old stadiums all the time, just look at the Charlotte Coliseum. China is growing very rapidly, it shouldn't be surprising that they tear down older buildings to build fancy new ones, most of them were even private companies doing it. When you are growing as fast as China is, buildings become outdated very quickly.

9/27/2010 10:33:49 AM

From what the page said, at least some of the demolitions were due to regulatory uncertainty: someone built what they thought they had a right to build, only some years later to have the government come in and demolish it because some bureaucrat decided the construction had been illegal in some way. This too happens in America.

9/27/2010 11:11:52 AM

I'd say it happens about anywhere, nothing too amazing.

[Edited on September 27, 2010 at 12:40 PM. Reason : ]

9/27/2010 12:39:51 PM

Nothing particularly shocking. Only thing that gains notice is that since it's done in China, the scale is much larger even compared to the United States.

9/27/2010 1:43:43 PM

Well, what it is proof of, is that China is now just like the rest of us, with a private capitalist economy, and a regulatory state eager to smash the product it produces.

9/27/2010 1:59:00 PM

No, it's not proof of that. Read the article. China destroys good buildings so they can build a new building and maintain their absurdly high GDP. It's the broken window fallacy in practice, which this country is more than familiar with.

9/27/2010 2:03:30 PM

Quote :

"China destroys good buildings so they can build a new building and maintain their absurdly high GDP."

They do it for the same reasons we tear down good buildings, we want new buildings, or in many of the examples given, they need a road there or a new building for the Olympics, etc.

Quote :

"It's the broken window fallacy in practice"

That's stupid. Do you know what the broken window fallacy is? That's like saying "it's perpetual motion in practice". A broken window would not increase GDP.

9/27/2010 3:19:57 PM

No, Kris, while you are probably right that this is not a broken window situation, you are wrong that it such a fallacy cannot increase GDP.

If the government conscripted the entire workforce to make rope and set an absurdly high price for rope, then GDP could be huge, while we all starve to death. Governments do lots of stuff that counts towards GDP, such as war, that just consumes resources while leaving everyone worse off.

9/27/2010 5:13:57 PM

Quote :

"you are wrong that it such a fallacy cannot increase GDP"

The only way if it will increase GDP is if there is a window that actually needs fixing, that is to say that what is done with the land would need to create more value than the structure that was there to begin with and the cost of tearing it down and building something else. If you just started tearing crap down and building the same stuff back up, the people building these things will get no return. I guess it's possible if the government financed it, but in that case it's not as much of a broken window if the increase of government debt doesn't negatively impact the value of the currency, which would mean that buyers of government bonds would be acting irrationally, eh it gets a bit more complicated, but it's not the act of building the building that makes the growth, its the use of credit that needs to be expanded in someway.

Quote :

"If the government conscripted the entire workforce to make rope and set an absurdly high price for rope, then GDP could be huge, while we all starve to death. Governments do lots of stuff that counts towards GDP, such as war, that just consumes resources while leaving everyone worse off."

Well you know that they're just playing with the money supply. If the GDP increases it is due to government credit that should have been used anyways.

9/27/2010 11:00:21 PM

Quote :

"The only way if it will increase GDP is if there is a window that actually needs fixing, that is to say that what is done with the land would need to create more value than the structure that was there to begin with and the cost of tearing it down and building something else. If you just started tearing crap down and building the same stuff back up, the people building these things will get no return. I guess it's possible if the government financed it, but in that case it's not as much of a broken window if the increase of government debt doesn't negatively impact the value of the currency, which would mean that buyers of government bonds would be acting irrationally, eh it gets a bit more complicated, but it's not the act of building the building that makes the growth, its the use of credit that needs to be expanded in someway."

This is kind of a clusterfuck of a paragraph, no?

Quote :

"The only way if it will increase GDP is if there is a window that actually needs fixing, that is to say that what is done with the land would need to create more value than the structure that was there to begin with and the cost of tearing it down and building something else"

This is not at all what GDP measures, but I suspect you know that and you're trying to work backwards to explain the "beauty" of the planned state.

GDP private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports - imports)

I don't see "value" anywhere in that equation.

Quote :

"the people building these things will get no return. "

And amazingly, GDP will still go up due to these activities.

Quote :

" I guess it's possible if the government financed it, but in that case it's not as much of a broken window if the increase of government debt doesn't negatively impact the value of the currency"

Private investment could have financed it. You said it yourself (in a different way). If they expect a better return, they'll do it. Over the short term, this looks great. But if they bet wrong, it unwinds on the other end.

Quote :

" which would mean that buyers of government bonds would be acting irrationally"

Investors acting irrationally....(gasp) no ?!



I didn't actually come here to reply to that, I came to post this

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/news/aa052300b.htm

Kinda surreal looking back on what was being said. Interesting how free trade with China wasn't pushed as a pure profit motive by the "pros" but rather as

Quote :

" Potential for improve working conditions and pay for Chinese workers Opening Western-style economy in China could force human rights reform in China"

Foxconn what? Stronger censorship of the internet what?

With the exception of the Taiwan thing (which China did actually saber rattle about, right?), those fearing "free trade" were pretty much spot on.

[Edited on October 20, 2010 at 10:08 PM. Reason : .]

10/20/2010 10:07:43 PM

Quote :

"GDP private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports - imports) I don't see "value" anywhere in that equation."

I think you knew what I meant by "value", but if you want to know where it is in that equation, it's in the "gross investment" category. The "value" was just more specifically the return on that investment, which I clarified later.

Quote :

"And amazingly, GDP will still go up due to these activities."

If money is only lost, consumption, investment, government spending and exports will all decrease to some degree.

Quote :

"If they expect a better return, they'll do it. Over the short term, this looks great. But if they bet wrong, it unwinds on the other end."

Yeah, that's kind of the definition of an investment.

Quote :

"Investors acting irrationally....(gasp) no ?"

They tend to act rationally more often than they act irrationally, so much more that there is an entire branch of study almost entirely devoted to it.

10/20/2010 11:37:12 PM

Quote :

"I think you knew what I meant by "value", but if you want to know where it is in that equation, it's in the "gross investment" category. The "value" was just more specifically the return on that investment, which I clarified later."

That is not the definition of value. People value child care, but stay at home moms contribute $0 to GDP when they provide it. GDP is a statistic that has little to do with value. It is entirely possible for GDP to fall at the same time the citizenry is better off. Similarly, as in the example I gave, it is entirely possible for GDP to grow dramatically while the citizenry starves in the street. As I said, "Governments do lots of stuff that counts towards GDP, such as war, that just consumes resources while leaving everyone worse off."

Quote :

"Well you know that they're just playing with the money supply. If the GDP increases it is due to government credit that should have been used anyways."

Absolutely not. Anyone familiar with Soviet History should know, it is called forced savings, as the citizenry has nothing left to do with their money but lend it to the government to produce more stuff the government likes but the people can neither eat nor enjoy.

10/21/2010 12:28:04 AM

they just jacked some of our stealth tech... their damn hackers plague the world...

time to put a tech beat down on them...

1/25/2011 10:58:16 PM

I don't particularly have a problem with them stealing the stealth stuff. That is to say, I'm not thrilled that they have it (or that we let it slip), but I can't exactly blame them for grabbing it. It's what I'd do.

I am a bit suspicious about the timing in all of this. They unveil it right before their big diplomatic mission over here, and we convict the guy who sold them the information just a few days later?

There was some interesting commentary that the unveiling of the plane (and its timing) may be indicative of a split between the PLA and the civilian and diplomatic actors in the country. Supposedly when Gates mentioned the plane to the premier, he acted like he didn't know what Gates was talking about -- even though by then it was public knowledge over here. That particular development could be worrisome.

1/25/2011 11:42:34 PM

Imitation is the truest form of flattery.

1/26/2011 10:33:18 AM

^^ The growing consensus seems to be that the Chinese government is becoming more factionalized, particularly the PLA. President Hu still commands great respect, but he's more a board chair trying to wrangle a whole bunch of stovepiped departments than a unified leader like his predecessors Deng and Jiang. I don't think the heir apparent will do any better.

1/26/2011 10:44:51 AM

That probably a good thing. Let them fight amongst themselves. Although it does get bad for us if the PLA decides that the best way to assert itself is to play with its new toys.

1/26/2011 11:26:30 AM

Actually, it's a problem for the very reason you state. The Politburo and civilian leadership always helped keep the PLA in check. With their grip weakening on the military, the generals are becoming much more assertive and aggressive, and unfortunately for us, that's usually means an anti-American sentiment. I don't think this means they're going to start waging war without the CCP's approval, but when tensions are high, accidents can happen. We don't need something like a repeat of the EP-3 incident back in 2001.

If there is a silver lining though, it's that their aggression has completely undermined Chinese efforts to play the whole "peaceful rise" game with their neighbors and have driven them closer to the United States (South Korea, Japan, and Vietnam are a few examples).

1/26/2011 12:14:18 PM

Just the past week they’ve signed trade deals with both EU and Canada focused on vehicles.

They are making some of the best and cheapest EVs now based on car reviewers online, but not available in the US

https://bsky.app/profile/socialmedialab.ca/post/3mck2wzvtzs22

1/16/2026 7:42:09 AM

I guess i told myself we are doing what they used to do. We are waiting for them to perfect something so we can copy it and mass produce cheaply

[Edited on January 16, 2026 at 7:47 AM. Reason : We need them to over invest so we can be like "SIKE!"]

1/16/2026 7:46:09 AM

gonna use this thread for sign tapping a lot over the next few years i reckon

[Edited on March 7, 2026 at 6:39 PM. Reason : tariffs panama greenland venezuela cartels iran it's all about countering china]

[Edited on March 7, 2026 at 6:39 PM. Reason : and biden was doing the same thing just more quietly and politely]

3/7/2026 6:36:32 PM

Sometimes i feel like we flex in the wrong ways. Just cause we have the most bombs doesn't mean we have to waste them all either

[Edited on March 9, 2026 at 11:29 PM. Reason : Power perceived is power achieved ]

3/9/2026 11:26:19 PM

Biden quietly made geopolitical PROGRESS against China. Trump’s efforts border on sabotage.

3/10/2026 6:24:27 AM

The best sabotage has always been done by the Beastie Boys

3/10/2026 8:30:22 AM

Beastie Boys are banned/restricted in China due to their support for Tibetan independence. Depending on what you think global chinese hegemony looks like, and how long it takes to arrive, it’s plausible our grandkids won’t be able to stream Beastie Boys on their Huawei tablet. Which is why I am calling on all Americans to fill any climate controlled spare space with physical copies of their favorite media and artists.

3/10/2026 8:08:51 PM

^
Oh, damn! Well, I still have a lot of physical media. A LOT!

3/10/2026 8:36:32 PM

Most analysts seem to be pegging China as the big winner in the Iran war

4/8/2026 12:44:02 PM

I think the US is the only one getting pegged.

4/8/2026 1:00:46 PM

Fuck the Trump administration and anything they propose, but…..

I have been wondering if a strategic retreat from Taiwan is in the US’s best long-term interest.

The US can’t possibly go toe-to-toe with China in our weakened, decrepit, and sabotaged condition. I think we lose a kinetic war or an intense economic conflict.

Instead we should be focused on bringing Taiwan’s strategic industries to our shores as much as possible while hardening our allies in the Pacific. Then we cede Taiwan to China in an orderly way and extract some concessions.

I think this could buy us another 10-15 years to position the country, militarily and economically, to better compete with China. We need time and some motivation to fix all the broken shit around here.

5/15/2026 9:35:22 AM

Quote :

"Instead we should be focused on bringing Taiwan’s strategic industries to our shores as much as possible while hardening our allies in the Pacific. "

Sure, but how can you single to our allies that our word is still good? We've essentially abandoned Ukraine (not Pacific, but still relevant), we've pulled assets out of RoK meant to deter PRC/DPRK, we've threatened to pull out of five eyes (Japan and Australia) and hold back intelligence from them, and list goes on..


And I get your talking about 'If we had a rational actor at the helm', but even if we get a Dem president in 2028, how do you convince those allies we'll still be there to protect you in 2032?

5/15/2026 10:45:21 AM

[Edited on May 15, 2026 at 10:49 AM. Reason : I say we offer to evacuate any taiwanese who want to leave and just let China have the rock if those jerks want it so bad]

5/15/2026 10:47:18 AM

Quote :

" Instead we should be focused on bringing Taiwan’s strategic industries to our shores as much as possible while hardening our allies in the Pacific. Then we cede Taiwan to China in an orderly way and extract some concessions."

This would be much harder than it seems. It is possible but only with coordinated and good leadership at the top which we don’t have, therefore would never happen.

The easier and likely better option is to just keep China from owning the area, but our idiot in chief is going to cede

5/15/2026 11:15:47 AM

we have already been for years. it's mostly a matter of whether the fabs are operational at scale in time to be useful in case we DO end up getting into a kinetic war with China (or more importantly the economic advantages that come with access to TSMC's products letting China continue to outgrow and therefore outinfluence us). also keep in mind that AI is already proving to be a significant factor in both the Ukraine and Iran conflicts, and this wave of anti-datacenter sentiment in the US is being pumped by China and other adversaries who don't want to see the US have that technological advantage (so don't fall for it!)

https://semiwiki.com/forum/threads/tsmc-eyes-bigger-us-investment-arizona-chip-expansion-accelerates.25066/

Quote :

"US Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick said at the summit that companies were sharply increasing investments in the US, particularly in AI infrastructure and semiconductors. He noted that TSMC and Micron Technology alone had committed hundreds of billions of dollars to manufacturing projects, while partners from Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea had pledged to manufacture in the US. Lutnick said the US government was no longer focused on bringing back only scattered manufacturing projects, but aimed to drive a broader industrial revival through infrastructure rebuilding, energy investment, and large-scale semiconductor production. He said the US was expected to attract trillions of dollars in investment commitments, including hundreds of billions of dollars in energy infrastructure and more than US$1 trillion tied to semiconductor-related infrastructure, excluding data center investment. Speaking at a recent US technology forum, Hou outlined TSMC's latest US expansion roadmap. He said the company would carry out nine phases of construction projects in 2025 and maintain the same pace in 2026 as it continues expanding capacity. Compared with an average of four phases annually in previous years, TSMC is now expanding capacity at roughly twice its historical pace, both in Taiwan and overseas. At the Arizona site, the first fab has already entered mass production using the N4 (4nm) process to support local customers. Construction of the second fab has been completed, with equipment installation scheduled to begin in the second half of 2026. The facility will target 3nm production and is expected to begin mass production in the second half of 2027. Construction of the third fab, targeting 2nm production, is already underway. TSMC also plans to begin construction of a fourth fab and its first advanced packaging facility in Arizona in 2026. To support future growth, TSMC has secured an additional site across from its existing Arizona campus to accommodate expected expansion from US customers. The company's first Arizona N4 fab has already achieved yields comparable to its Taiwan operations when producing the same products, according to TSMC. The company plans to further raise output and expand capacity, with N4 capacity expected to increase 1.8 times in 2026. Industry sources said TSMC has also internally confirmed plans for at least five to six additional facilities beyond the current roadmap of six fabs and two advanced packaging plants."

[Edited on May 15, 2026 at 11:36 AM. Reason : medium/long term the US will be "fine" strategically. the US still has so many things working in its favor relative to China, despite our current era of dysfunction. they might outwork/outsmart/outculture us, but their authoritarian system is ultimately a dead-end. hopefully they'll voluntarily transition away from one party rule (or at least the worst aspects of it, but the natural incentives of that system don't make it likely) before they really implode. US public opposition (where it exists) to letting china take taiwan is mostly humanitarian sentiment and historical resistance to the possibility of the US not being able to do whatever it wants around the world. but not like we cared about them absorbing hong kong the way they did. or their aggression to south china sea neighbors.]

[Edited on May 15, 2026 at 12:11 PM. Reason : confidence booster for TerdFerguson]

5/15/2026 11:35:07 AM

^^I agree it won’t be easy. Especially considering we’ve been trying to do it, to some degree, for the past several years and have been pretty unsuccessful.

I think the point I’m making is that at some point in the near future, bringing chip manufacturing to the US (or S Korea, or Japan, etc), while difficult, is going to seem like a much easier option than some kind of cold or hot war with China.

Quote :

" And I get your talking about 'If we had a rational actor at the helm', but even if we get a Dem president in 2028, how do you convince those allies we'll still be there to protect you in 2032?"

It won’t be easy. This is the sabotage I reference in my above post and the damage is real. However, China’s neighbors have a deeper understanding of how Chinese influence will change their countries more than I ever will. It seems to me that when democracy loving people take a long look at how China tries to control its friends, vassals, and own population, they reject most of it. The US would also need to play a primary role in whatever humanitarian needs arise from ceding Taiwan (mass immigration?). The US is also probably the only entity capable of providing the weapons deals these countries will need. The Trump admin has tried to fuck Ukraine on a monthly basis, yet Zelensky still shows up and attempts to go through the motions to acquire more ammo for his country.

Basically, despite the US’s failings, we will be looking like a decent option if you felt China breathing down your neck.




[Edited on May 15, 2026 at 12:11 PM. Reason : ^so we are making progress, still can’t manu some of the chips tho. Also fuck Lutnick.]

5/15/2026 12:00:46 PM