there is nothing more official than Wikipedia.

12/9/2009 8:05:37 PM

I see... I wasn't aware that wikipedia had become a standards body.

Good luck finding an official HDTV spec. Hint - it doesn't exist! There is no such thing as "HDTV" the way we have come to expect from named technologies (USB, HDMI, 802.11x, DVD, VGA, etc).

And by the way, that wikipedia article you posted clearly lists 480p in the table of HDTV formats ... That's what you get for posting a publically editable source.

12/9/2009 8:10:21 PM

it's called the ATSC DTV Standard, look into it, it clearly states HDTV specifications.

[Edited on December 9, 2009 at 8:16 PM. Reason : .]

12/9/2009 8:16:49 PM

480p is a part of the ATSC DTV list of standard video formats.

If you or a group of people have decided to select a subset of those formats and decided to unofficially call them "HDTV" that is your choice, but you have yet to show an official HDTV specification.

You have shown that 480p is ATSC along with 720p and 1080p

[Edited on December 9, 2009 at 8:21 PM. Reason : s]

12/9/2009 8:20:49 PM

it is in the list of standard video formats correct...

but says this:

Quote :

"The 720-line and 1080-line formats below represent high resolution video and might be used for motion pictures, other programs captured on film, programs shot with HDTV cameras including sporting events and concerts, and animation and graphics that might be computer-generated. The lower-resolution 480-line formats accommodate existing NTSC programming and equipment as well as material designed for viewing on VGA computer monitors."

if you read the ATSC DTV standard they clearly distinguish the two, hence in part why the EDTV definition came out, because 480p wasn't intended for HDTV

more:

Quote :

"Although 480p is part of the approved DTV broadcasting scheme, it is not HDTV. This standard was included as one of the DTV broadcasting standards to provide broadcasters the option of providing multiple channels of programming in the same bandwidth as a single HDTV signal. In other words, 480p is just more of what we already have with only a slight increase in image quality."

do not confuse DTV standard for HDTV standard

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Notices/fcc96207.txt

[Edited on December 9, 2009 at 8:42 PM. Reason : .]

12/9/2009 8:38:47 PM

could you provide a link to the standard from which you pulled that text? Or was it just an article?

Quote :

"do not confuse DTV standard for HDTV standard"

THERE IS NO HDTV STANDARD!!!

That's my whole and only point... If this makes you mad, don't continue the discussion. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, then please by all means link it. I am ok with being proven wrong on this issue.

it was a stupid thread topic anyway... this is much more interesting.


[Edited on December 9, 2009 at 8:46 PM. Reason : s]

12/9/2009 8:41:02 PM

ok, so it's listed as a format UNDER a standard... sorry.

i still laugh when i read the first line:

Quote :

"This document was originally prepared in Word Perfect. "

of that link.

[Edited on December 9, 2009 at 8:54 PM. Reason : .]

12/9/2009 8:50:23 PM

If there is a standard which officially defines HDTV as a part of an overarching technology, that would count.

12/9/2009 8:53:56 PM

Continuously mentioning that there is no standard for HDTV is only hurting your standing in this inane argument. If you ask 100 people what constitutes HD, 99 of them would say 720p and up.

Then there's the one dumbass out of the bunch...

Too bad there's not a standard you could reference to settle the matter once and for all.

12/9/2009 9:14:38 PM

well yea that's kind of the point

12/9/2009 9:15:57 PM

yeah has an h, moron

12/9/2009 9:16:38 PM

yea?

12/9/2009 9:23:29 PM

yeah. http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/yea.html

[Edited on December 9, 2009 at 9:32 PM. Reason : auto-url fail]

12/9/2009 9:31:37 PM

You better let nintendo know about this!!! Their plans to release an HD hardware update for the Wii is no longer necissary!!!

12/9/2009 9:44:29 PM

nah, its still necessary for them to support higher resolutions.

12/9/2009 10:01:05 PM

hahahaha

wow a lot of people got trolled.

12/9/2009 10:05:12 PM

I wasn't really trolling... Just making a point. Not many people know that HDTV was never officially described in a spec... The standards group meant to do it, but they never could finalize it and so they just left it unofficial.

12/9/2009 10:08:45 PM

i think it's just a semantics issue and how the 'formats' are utilized. like i posted earlier, that quote clearly states that the 720p & 1080p formats are to be utilized with programs shot with HDTV cameras and that 480p was intended for existing NTSC programs.

the formats have been set in stone since 1996 for the ATSC DTV standard set by Grand Alliance (FCC) to be used here in the U.S, it's a U.S. standard.

now you'd be right if you said it's not an international standard, although the ITU-R did specify 16:9 and 1080i & 1080p as their format "recommendation", hell even the ITU-R thought 720p was more of an "enhanced" definition and not "high" definition.

so while there isn't a standard set in stone internationally, internationally everyone accepts their recommendation with the inclusion of 720p.

12/10/2009 12:37:34 AM

I don't think that we'll see the next-gen consoles soon.

1. Sony just priced the ps3 at 299.99 which was the launch price of the ps2.
2. Natal isn't launching until next year. Some are touting it as a relaunch of the 360.
3. The old model of 5-6 year hardware cycles has to be thrown out.
4. The limits of the DVD are being reached/surpassed but digital distribution isn't feasible. This applies mostly towards MS. iD software's next game, Rage, will actually be held back by dvd's capacity. MS released a HD-DVD player but refuse to adopt a blu-ray attachment. Mandatory hard drive installs are becoming standard on the ps3 because of its slow read speeds and the 360 has implemented an optional complete install. So the precedent for mandatory DVD installs is there, at least.
5. Digital distribution can't work in many parts of the world due to bandwidth caps.
6. Everything the Wii stands for. Although 3rd parties have all but given up.
7. Sony continues to sell ps2s at a steady rate -> 10 year life cycle for the ps3
8. Developers have just adjusted to the necessary scale of this gen's hardware. Increasing the amount of detail -> larger dev teams & less indies.
9. MS killed the xbox1 when the 360 launched -> no overlapping product life cycles. They have announced plans for the next two years of 360.

I don't think it was a bad investment. I think buying it to play a competitive FPS that was available for the PC was a bad decision. There are dozens of games you should pick up that aren't available for the PC.

I would keep it, sell MW2 360, buy MW2 PC, and rent a shitload of games you have missed in the past 4 years.

12/10/2009 12:40:04 AM

oh for christ's sake... there's no international standard and there is no national standard. there is a common understanding, and a voluntarily agreed upon definition, but that is NOT an official standard.

There is no official "HDTV standard" in and of itself, nor is HDTV clearly defined as a part of any other official standard.

12/10/2009 12:51:24 AM

point is 480p was never and will never be considered "HD" even if they agreed on a standard.

by your definition, we might as well call DVD's "HD" because there's no standard definition for it.

12/10/2009 1:10:02 AM

god damn people will argue about anything

12/10/2009 1:19:07 AM

lol, this solinari kid is getting pissed.

12/10/2009 1:30:15 AM

Quote :

"by your definition, we might as well call DVD's "HD" because there's no standard definition for it."

yes, that is my point. there is no hdtv standard... Anything can be labeled "HDTV" without any sort of violation (besides maybe someone's personal ethics).

12/10/2009 11:47:47 AM

Quote :

"That and there STILL isnt a competent way to do RTS on consoles"

That's completely false. You haven't played Halo Wars. Halo Wars was simplified, but a solid RTS. The last patch I played on was 99% balanced which is awesome for a console RTS. It's decently supported and the control layout is fairly simple and the game flows nicely.

12/10/2009 12:13:28 PM

we DO have the ATSC DTV standard here in the U.S. and HDTV is defined in that standard, it clearly does not include 480p as a format for HDTV broadcasts. if you want to bicker about what Finland or Australia defines as "HD" than have at it... i'm pretty sure the FCC will not allow a broadcast stream in 480p to be considered an "HD" channel.

sorry, i'll let it drop

[Edited on December 10, 2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2009 12:14:07 PM

^^ I don't want to argue over a specific game; if you like it great. But Halo Wars is not a competent RTS IMO.

Granted I have not played it. I have done my homework on it and it seems like what you would come up with when you have to dumb down an RTS so you CAN play it on a console.

12/10/2009 1:52:24 PM

Am I the only person that feels a FPS is too cumbersome to play on a PC?

12/10/2009 1:57:00 PM

yes.

i used to play BF2 all the time on PC, not sure how I would have done it on a console

12/10/2009 3:00:46 PM

I feel the exact opposite. I can't see myself playing a FPS hardcore on a PC. I've tried but its just too stressful for me.



[Edited on December 10, 2009 at 3:15 PM. Reason : /]

12/10/2009 3:04:37 PM

^, ^^, ^^^ I am so confused You are both disagreeing and agreeing at the same time?

12/10/2009 3:06:00 PM

i think he meant to say he cant see himself playing an FPS hardcore on a PC, but he has tried

12/10/2009 3:13:15 PM

Yeah I think so too.

12/10/2009 3:15:48 PM

I disagree

12/10/2009 3:19:18 PM

Quote :

"seedless: Am I the only person that feels a FPS is too cumbersome to play on a PC? [I really enjoy playing an FPS on a console] Prospero: yes [you are the only person that feels playing an FPS on a PC is cumbersome]. i used to play BF2 all the time on PC, not sure how I would have done it on a console [because consoles are more cumbersome than a PC when it comes to an FPS] seedless: I feel the exact opposite. [I feel that PCs are very cumbersome and consoles are not] I can't see myself playing a FPS hardcore on a PC. I've tried but its just too stressful for me. [Playing on a PC stresses me out, consoles do not stress me out]"

I still don't get why seedless thinks playing on a PC is cumbersome OR stressful... that said, I hate using the thumb-sticks and finger-paddles in an FPS, give me a mouse and keyboard please.



[Edited on December 10, 2009 at 4:43 PM. Reason : .]

12/10/2009 4:41:26 PM

I don't think it is, I know it is for for me. For others they may like a keyboard and mouse for a FPS better than a controller.

12/10/2009 4:50:40 PM

just wanted to point out that prospero has yet to post a link to an official standards document that fully describes the specifications for and names the HDTV technology. that's all i have to say about this

12/10/2009 6:05:22 PM

ok, we get it, you're a dumbass. You don't have to keep reminding us of that.

12/10/2009 8:05:46 PM

yea whatever

12/10/2009 9:23:11 PM