IT'S. NOT. BASED. ON. RACE.

i mean, under your logic, anything that is based on salary is race-based. the tax code is race based. the free and reduced lunch program itself is some race-based plot to feed minorities with your logic.

2/20/2010 6:27:58 PM

only, IT IS BASED ON RACE. That's why we always hear about doing it for "diversity," which EVERYONE knows is a codeword for racial quasi-quotas.

I mean, you can keep denying it all you want. But until you provide any argument to back it up, you just sound like a kid screaming at the sky demanding it not be blue.

2/20/2010 6:31:16 PM

it's only a codeword to you. socio-economic diversity is what it implies.

2/20/2010 6:33:08 PM

only, it doesn't. nice try. considering, AGAIN, since SES is HIGHLY FUCKING CORRELATED WITH RACE, YOU FUCKING MORON, "socio-economic diversity" STILL be a codeword for racial quasi-quotas. Jesus, you are dense

2/20/2010 6:39:45 PM

if i'm so dense then why do you want to facebook friend me?

2/20/2010 6:40:44 PM

because I want to ram my rock hard dick up your tight ass, duh

2/20/2010 6:45:22 PM

i'm just saying. ad homs don't really help things. no need to get personal. i'd just like to know how something based more or less on family income is somehow based on race. is everything based on income race-based?

2/20/2010 6:46:48 PM

do you deny that SES is highly correlated with race? Besides, it is fallacious to suggest that I am saying that all things SES are race-based.

btw, I'm not the one who started w/ the absurdity. You are the one who asked why I tried to friend you on facebook. I followed one absurd thing with another.

2/20/2010 6:53:06 PM

you were the one calling me a fucking moron.

if that isn't an ad hom. i don't know what is. i was simply confused as to why you'd want to befriend someone you considered a moron. i don't make those sorts of decisions. as i guess you know.

and what's that quote about correlation and causation? i can't remember it.

[Edited on February 20, 2010 at 6:55 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2010 6:55:21 PM

ummm. where am I arguing that being black makes you poor?

2/20/2010 7:05:35 PM

[Edited on February 20, 2010 at 7:09 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2010 7:08:34 PM

Quote :

"and what's that quote about correlation and causation? i can't remember it."

2/20/2010 7:09:08 PM

i mean you're saying that race is correlated with SES. and that because of that, busing based on free and reduced lunches is race-based. yet other things that are also based on SES are not race-based somehow.

2/20/2010 7:10:26 PM

that does not follow. not everything that is based on SES is necessarily race-based. Busing, however, IS. Partly because it has historically been so, up until such action was ruled illegal. At which point the metric was changed from race to SES. That is entirely different from actions that have always been based on SES.

2/20/2010 7:14:42 PM

so something which was changed to not be race-based is still based on race because of some sort of magic in your head. gotcha.

2/20/2010 7:15:29 PM

so in your head, people suddenly realized the error of their ways and stopped promoting a policy they previously supported simply because a court ruled it illegal. gotcha

2/20/2010 7:16:59 PM

^ it's irrelevant what it was originally based on, because no one nowadays, because things change over time you know, the world isn't static, would argue that SES is a poorer standard to use.

2/20/2010 7:17:03 PM

which is PRECISELY why it is used. AS COVER. duh

2/20/2010 7:17:32 PM

no

you're wrong

it's not a cover.

it's an evolution of the principle

2/20/2010 7:18:51 PM

the principle of policies based on race. IE, it's based on race.
it's, at best, an evolution of the stated goal


i mean, it seriously takes a liberal to make a statement that asininely retarded

[Edited on February 20, 2010 at 7:20 PM. Reason : ]

2/20/2010 7:19:21 PM

no

the principle is making sure everyone has something approaching the same opportunities

2/20/2010 7:25:03 PM

riiiiiiiight. that's why whenever someone argues for neighborhood schools, they are immediately branded as being "against diversity," or, more likely, a racist. riiiiiiiiight.

say what it really means. "Making sure that black folks can go to the historically white folks schools."

2/20/2010 7:33:11 PM

^ the first people to bring up race in this thread were people who are against the bussing programs.

Therefore, your hypothesis can't be right.

2/20/2010 7:35:18 PM

what an asinine argument to make. "You said it first, so you are the only one it applies to."

2/20/2010 7:38:20 PM

ha

that's not the argument.

The point was that the people most conscious of race aspect, contrary to you assertion, are the people who oppose the bussing. You're trying to play the race-card card.

2/20/2010 7:40:04 PM

care to prove that assertion? Or offer any facts to back it up? Of course not. You'll just say "you were the first to say it, so you are the only one who thinks about it."

The fact is, those who espouse busing based on race know they can't do it, so they won't bring it up. Instead, they will try to use something closely related that will deflect claims of racial concern, like SES, in order to try and claim a moral high-ground. All while being just as guilty of what they claim to be against as they claim their opponent is.

2/20/2010 7:48:54 PM

First, to BigPapa on the first page, I'm pretty sure I know about the way schools are today, since I've been teaching for 8 years. I don't honestly know of anyone else on TWW who has been working in public schools longer, although I could be wrong.

Second, the argument about whether this is race based or not is unnecessary. You can argue about the correlation of SES to race all day, but the target is those with a low SES, because of the inherent problems systemically reported in educating children from those environments. If race correlates strongly to that, fine, but race is not the same kind of indicator of performance in schools, when controlled for SES. However, economic status IS a good indicator, when controlled for race. I basically agree with your point that race and SES are often strongly correlated, but disagree about the importance of that fact.

The point is simple, that a school system with a diversity policy is better than without. For those who say that having de facto segregated schools, whether by race or simple economic status, isn't really an issue, you're plain wrong. Savage Inequalities, a book by Jonathan Kozol, addresses that issue in detail, and it shows that gaps get wider when you allow neighborhood schools to stratify, which inevitably happens. A snowball effect occurs.

When you have a Title I school that has 3/4 of the students on free and reduced lunch, you are going to have a much higher portion of a certain set of things that make teaching and learning difficult. Parent contact is more difficult, because phones are cut off. Addresses change constantly, kids have to take care of younger brothers and sisters, parents don't have a car to get to school and meet with teachers, and many other things. The things that correlate highly with poverty are increased likelihood of a one parent household, not as much stress on education, less long term planning and goal setting, lack of belief that success is achievable, gang and criminal activity which creates unstable family structures, etc.

There's a lot you can pick apart from the above paragraph, and it is generalizing, but I am not saying that all people in poor environments share those traits, just that with poverty, the incidence rate is higher than from outside poverty, as a general rule.

THE REASON THIS IS AN ISSUE is because a teacher can manage when 10-15% of a classroom that has those issues, and provide the time and effort to give extra support to those students and their families, but when you reach a critical mass where 50% or more of your population faces those issues, it can become much more overwhelming. As a result, many will not get served properly and "fall through the cracks," teachers will get burned out and frustrated because they have too many plates to keep spinning at one time, and overall performance will begin to decline at those schools.

I think that having diversity in schools is an advantage for many reasons. I don't know if busing is the right response, but I know neighborhood schools is not. I was bussed 45 minutes each way from the time I was in 6th grade on to attend a magnet school, and my life was fine. I was on the bus each morning before the sun came up, and had to get up before 6. Shit happens, I lived, not everything's a pile of rose petals. but it was worth it.

2/20/2010 7:49:11 PM

Quote :

"The fact is, those who espouse busing based on race know they can't do it, so they won't bring it up. Instead, they will try to use something closely related that will deflect claims of racial concern, like SES, in order to try and claim a moral high-ground. All while being just as guilty of what they claim to be against as they claim their opponent is. "

This is just blatantly untrue. No one designing this system today would choose to do it based on race, over SES. You realize that if those evil black people didn't exist in the US today, there'd STILL be SES-based stratifications? That we'd STILL be having this same dicussion?

It's mind-boggling that you're so hung up on this. It's like you really feel that the white-male is under attack, and this is just a sign of that. I bet you're one of those people that feel that you're the true victim in society, and the minorities have it better off than everyone else, right?

[Edited on February 20, 2010 at 7:57 PM. Reason : ]

2/20/2010 7:56:36 PM

Quote :

"The point is simple, that a school system with a diversity policy is better than without."

Oh look. a "diversity policy." you were saying, moron?

Quote :

"It's mind-boggling that you're so hung up on this. It's like you really feel that the white-male is under attack, and this is just a sign of that"

that is an AMAZING straw man dude. I don't give a fuck about busing one way or another. I'm simply pointing out that we bus on race, no matter what we claim to bus on.

2/20/2010 7:59:32 PM

Quote :

"This is just blatantly untrue. No one designing this system today would choose to do it based on race, over SES. You realize that if those evil black people didn't exist in the US today, there'd STILL be SES-based stratifications? That we'd STILL be having this same dicussion? "

2/20/2010 8:01:29 PM

Quote :

"No one designing this system today would choose to do it based on race, over SES."

Of course not. It's illegal.



I'm moving that cause it's in response to what you just said, and I accidentally hit "post" before I replied to that

2/20/2010 8:03:00 PM

^ no, no one would do it because it makes less sense in most cases.

2/20/2010 8:04:33 PM

Read this...it does seem that a diversity policy based on economic status has been beneficial, and doesn't impinge on people too heavily. (96% of kids attend school within 10 miles of home)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-11-02-busing02_ST_N.htm

2/20/2010 8:05:39 PM

again, note how he said "diversity." The fantastic codeword for racial quasi-quotas

2/20/2010 8:10:39 PM

^ Did you not read what FuhCtious wrote a few posts up? He specifically addressed the SES-Race argument. Or did you just scan his post for the word 'diversity'?

2/20/2010 8:19:07 PM

^^Fuck you.

How's that for not using a codeword. If I meant racial diversity, that's what I would have said. Don't twist what I'm saying and presume you know what deeper meaning I have. I don't have a problem with your opinion, you are entitled to it, but I haven't presumed you have some deeper agenda, so show enough respect not to do that to me.

Diversity means people of different backgrounds and circumstances, who are not a homogeneous population. Race, ethnic heritage, family structure, attitudes with respect to education, religion, wealth level and whether you come from a framework of poverty or middle/upper class, athletic ability...basically, people who are different. In this case, what they don't want are schools where everyone is the same, in any way, but mainly in ways that impact the ability to learn in the classroom.

Reread what I wrote above about the nature of those from poverty.

[Edited on February 20, 2010 at 8:27 PM. Reason : v]

2/20/2010 8:27:31 PM

congrats, you are the one person on the face of the planet who uses "diversity" to mean something other than race

2/20/2010 8:38:35 PM

Quote :

"aaronburro: Thus, we bus based on race."

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: ^^No, we bus based on socioeconomic status. The race of the school really isn't as important as the incomes of the families. A high-poverty, white school struggles too."

Quote :

"aaronburro: No, we bus on race, as you already admitted. We say we bus on SES, but we really bus on race."

Quote :

"Boone: This is semantics. Retarded semantics. They bus based on SES. Yes-- SES correlates with race. SES correlates with a lot of things. SES probably correlates with amount of ice cream consumed. But we don't bus based on ice cream consumption."

Quote :

"aaronburro: they choose SES because it correlates with race, though. That's why they bus on race"

Quote :

"Boone: They chose SES because it's the best indicator of success/failure in school."

Quote :

"aaronburro: They say they chose SES because it's the best indicator of success/failure in school."

Quote :

"Boone: aaronburro says he isn't a birther."

Quote :

"aaronburro: I'm glad to see you admit they bus on race. Otherwise, why would people denounce the neighborhood school people as being against integration?"

Quote :

"Boone: Because they understand that people against busing misunderstand the issue, and are making it about race-- even when it isn't. You're exhibit A"

Quote :

"aaronburro: you assume I am against busing... And, again, why denounce them as being against integration? If it's NOT about race, why use a term related to race? They argue that the end of busing would lead to de-integration. it sounds as if busing is directly tied to race in that case, since the argument is that de-integration is bad. durrrr. I love how you live in a fantasy world, though"

Quote :

"Boone: Because they are against integration. Because they don't even know what SES stands for. Because they completely misunderstand the point of busing. And it's an easy way to dismiss stupid people's arguments."

Quote :

"aaronburro: so, it's easy to say it's about race when it's not? "

Quote :

"Boone: It is about race... For stupid people. For the people actually making policy, it's about SES "

Quote :

"aaronburro: ^^^^ no, it's only about race. Even for the policy makers."

Quote :

"wolfpackgrrr: That would make sense if it were only one race of kids getting bussed around but it's not."

Quote :

"aaronburro: Did you really say that out loud? So, you are only gonna bus black kids to white schools, leaving the schools in black neighborhoods only partly filled?"

Quote :

"modlin: http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/127605.html Another N&O article, 2nd for today. I'm apparently one of the few that subscribes to and reads the paper, but they've been basically running the same article every day for a month now. At any rate, it's fairly relevant to the recent discussion about the diversity policy being a wink towards race."

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: That really hasn't been a discussion. It's just aaronburro insisting it's about race when it isn't. Even back when we bused on race, it was still understood that a big part of that had to do with socioeconomic status. The courts came in and busted up the race-based busing so we switched to SES. I'm still unclear why you guys think this point is meaningful at all."

Quote :

"aaronburro: the point is meaningful because we are still busing on race, just calling it something different."

Quote :

"theDuke866: OK, that's enough posts about race vs. socioeconomic status. if you have something to back up your claim, let's hear it. if not, shut the fuck up."

http://brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=577871&page=2

The next part of the "argument" is people coming in and asking why we bused based on race in the first place (facepalm). They also point to the fact that people still talk about student performance in terms of race so race must have something to do with the busing policy! And you have to explain to them that while we are not allowed to bus based on race, we are still allowed to care about racial minorities and whether or not they are getting served at school.

2/20/2010 10:40:51 PM

PWNT

by a GIRL too!

2/20/2010 10:48:48 PM

So if the busing program isn't about race, then why is it that the opponents of the busing program are accused of attempting to return us to "the days of segregation"? You could say that those people are talking about "economic segregation" but that would be sophistry as if you were to go up to any person on the street and ask them what "the days of segregation" were, not a single one of them would say "Back in the early 90's when poor people went to separate schools from rich people".

Then there's stuff like this:

Quote :

"They don’t want their kids going to school with the poor black kids, and they don’t care who gets left behind by their policy."

Incidentally, I wonder if this holds true for SES too:

Quote :

"# The more diverse a school is, the less likely it is that kids will form cross-race friendships."

http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2010/02/how-to-raise-racist-kids/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wired/index+%28Wired:+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Reader




[Edited on February 20, 2010 at 11:28 PM. Reason : adf]

2/20/2010 11:16:21 PM

not exactly. it's just a reaffirmation that no one in here has anything new to add to the topic that hasn't been discussed before. we bus on race, but call it something different

2/20/2010 11:16:58 PM

^^Again, we bus based on socioeconomic status.

This doesn't mean that we're no longer allowed to talk about race.

We're still allowed to remark, "Hey, if we move to neighborhood schools, we're probably gonna have racially segregated schools since the neighborhoods are racially segregated!"

I don't know why y'all are so concerned with this. What's the big point that y'all are trying to get at?

2/20/2010 11:52:53 PM

no, we bus on race, but say we bus on SES.

Quote :

"We're still allowed to remark, "Hey, if we move to neighborhood schools, we're probably gonna have racially segregated schools since the neighborhoods are racially segregated!""

Sure you are, because that's the main concern, anyway. Making sure we have 12 white kids, 6 black kids, 3 asians, and 2 hispanics in every classroom.

Quote :

"I don't know why y'all are so concerned with this."

maybe we prefer to call a spade a spade. maybe we don't like intellectual dishonesty. take your pick

2/21/2010 12:05:36 AM

Except it's not just remarking the potential effects any more than accusing Obama of being a socialist is remarking that "Hey, some of his policies are likely to lead to increased economic hardships as has happened in other locations where these policies have been tried." The purpose of accusing opponents of busing of attempting to re-segregate schools is to conjure up specific images and ideas which have nothing at all to do with SES. Besides, if this isn't about racial diversity, then whether stopping the busing leads to more racially segregated schools is a non sequitur as the purpose of the plan isn't to create racial diversity.

That isn't to say that racial diversity is or isn't something to strive for, but merely that as you keep saying, busing has nothing to do with race, so if we want racial diversity, we should talk about it outside the scope of the busing policy and stop accusing those of wanting to end the busing policy of being racists.

2/21/2010 12:06:39 AM

Quote :

"aaronburro: Sure you are, because that's the main concern, anyway. Making sure we have 12 white kids, 6 black kids, 3 asians, and 2 hispanics in every classroom."

I'm glad you said this because I see more where you are coming from.

I promise you there is no secret conspiracy to force racial integration on people. What society does in this regard is open and explicit.

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: That isn't to say that racial diversity is or isn't something to strive for, but merely that as you keep saying, busing has nothing to do with race, so if we want racial diversity, we should talk about it outside the scope of the busing policy and stop accusing those of wanting to end the busing policy of being racists."

The problem is that nobody in this thread is accusing opponents to the busing policy of being racist. moron pointed out that the first people to make it a racial issue in this thread were the opponents. I looked through the other thread (http://brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=577871&page=2), and while I'm the quickest bitch on the planet to call somebody a racist, I managed to not do it--even after we lost the elections!

It's like people are so concerned about getting called racist that they want us (the proponents of the policy) to not even mention race at all. You can stop us from busing based on race, but you can't stop us from talking about it. I personally cannot let this policy go without pointing out the impact it will have on racial minorities. I'm not gonna stop talking about race just because it makes some people uncomfortable with their position.

If you're not a superracist, you should be confident about it and not get all threatened when someone points out that neighborhood schools will lead to isolating poor, black and Latino students in a handful of schools (in other words, the "days of segregation"). If having a bus ride that's eight minutes shorter (or whatever it is people want) is worth returning to segregation to you, then that's fine. I mean, y'all can't be held responsible for the fact that are neighborhoods are segregated, right? But you also can't expect everybody else to shut up about race.

I mean, I'ma talk about race whenever I feel like it. I'll slip race into a friendly conversation about the weather...Hurricane Katrina!

[Edited on February 21, 2010 at 2:05 AM. Reason : RACE, RACE, RACE, RACE, RACE]

2/21/2010 2:02:23 AM

because George Bush hates black people, right?

2/21/2010 2:18:32 AM

i'm LOLing at these assholes telling a career educator how to run a fucking school system.

democracy.

2/21/2010 4:36:22 AM

Quote :

"If having a bus ride that's eight minutes shorter (or whatever it is people want) is worth returning to segregation to you, then that's fine."

I understand your broader point, but when you frame the issue like this, i think it galvanizes your opposition.

Things have changed considerably from the segregation age, but even with the de-facto segregation that some schools (and a smaller amount of schools at that) will experience under the new policy, things still are far better than they used to be and getting better. Harkening back to some of the darker ages of the Civil Rights struggle clouds the real issues.

If we can agree that none of us are racist, then the next step is to figure out what we can do so that the poorer students (or the little niglets, to suit aaronburro's syntactical preference) that would benefit from a better school can have that opportunity?

As someone who doesn't work with the schools and has no kids, my concern is only going to go so far.

I guess we'd need a definite list of which schools are going to be most negatively affected by the new policy. Then from there, we can look at case-by-case solutions for those schools. If the richer (or cracker) parents don't want the poor (is negroid acceptable to you in place of this, burro?) kids around, that's fine, the poor kids shouldn't really live their life depending on the grace of the rest of society anyway. They can find solutions that work in the system, and those solutions do exist.

2/21/2010 4:37:38 AM

I'm enjoying the accusation of racism, moron. it really bolsters your point.

2/21/2010 1:58:12 PM

You’re the one who insists the policy has to be based on race.

2/21/2010 2:33:12 PM