Reading the first several posts in this thread and then reading the "Worst US President" thread is like

3/28/2010 12:45:07 AM

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"Then you're surprised about the fourth in a series after they had shown military superiority in every previous conflict?"

I never said I was surprised, I was just pointing out that it's not always so damn lopsided in favor of the Israelis. A surprise attack is a fairly substantial advantage, as in the Six Day War.

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"In 1948 Israel had a substantial number of bombers and other large planes, the arabs only had a small number of fighter planes. "

From what I'm reading, by the end of 1948 the balance of air power was only just beginning to go in Israel's favor.

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"After all, might makes right."

Don't be dense, and don't expect me to feel sorry for people that don't learn from their mistakes. If Israel was always the one invading Egypt, Syria, etc., that'd be one thing. As it happens, we have three instances of the Arab countries initiating armed conflict, and one where their obvious preparations for imminent initiation of conflict got them pre-emptively attacked.

The key part of the sentence that you quoted is "while still insisting on picking fights."

3/28/2010 1:21:36 PM

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"I was just pointing out that it's not always so damn lopsided in favor of the Israelis."

They've militarily outmatched the arabs in every conflict they've been in. The arabs simply couldn't win a conventional war against them.

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"From what I'm reading, by the end of 1948 the balance of air power was only just beginning to go in Israel's favor."

Earlier you said they had no air force, but I assume you've studied up on it a bit more, and if you continue looking, you'll see they had superior fighter planes and an actual reason to have air superiority, as they had large bombers.

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"The key part of the sentence that you quoted is "while still insisting on picking fights.""

So then might makes right only when someone "picks a fight"?

3/28/2010 2:48:12 PM

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"So then might makes right only when someone "picks a fight"?"

I'm saying that starting a war you can't win, when you have good evidence to believe you can't win (because you never have before, because since the last time you got whupped your opponent has been improving his military substantially more than you have, etc) is stupid and wrong. War is bad enough as it is; hopeless wars that just engender bitterness and death are worse. But you seem to want me to feel sympathy for people that keep ramming their heads into a wall.

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"They've militarily outmatched the arabs in every conflict they've been in."

No shit. They won. What are you trying to convince me of? Do you want me to say that Israelis are actually inferior soldiers only propped up by vast stockpiles of American technology? 'Cause that's a load of horse shit.

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"Earlier you said they had no air force"

At the start they didn't. Even when they initially acquired planes they were few and number and not superior. They may have had something serious towards the end, but this all reinforces my point that even when a lot of the material advantages were stacked against the Israelis they've done alright.

3/29/2010 12:44:29 AM

BALLS

3/29/2010 8:22:42 AM

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"But you seem to want me to feel sympathy for people that keep ramming their heads into a wall."

Them "ramming thier head into a wall" is irrelevant to whether or not something that was done to them was wrong. I don't even care if you feel sympathy for the arab nations that fought israel, that's irrelevant to whats going on in there now. The indigenous palestinian people are the ones who suffer.

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"What are you trying to convince me of? Do you want me to say that Israelis are actually inferior soldiers only propped up by vast stockpiles of American technology? 'Cause that's a load of horse shit."

They were better trained, better equiped, better funded, and better lead. I just don't think having a superior military morally justifies anything you do.

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"At the start they didn't."

Yes they did. Even when they initially acquired planes they were few and number and not superior.

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"even when a lot of the material advantages were stacked against the Israelis they've done alright"

They've never been in that position. They have the military and financial support of the United States, various powerful crimelords, and jews around the world.

3/29/2010 12:51:02 PM

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"Them "ramming thier head into a wall" is irrelevant to whether or not something that was done to them was wrong."

I don't recall anything being done to Egypt, Syria, Jordan, or Iraq in 1948.

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"The indigenous palestinian people are the ones who suffer."

And they suffer far more than necessary because of the tactics they use and because of the repeated aggressive action on the part of their fellow Arabs who claim to support them. This is not to say that it's right, but it's how things are.

I suppose it's possible that the Israelis were going to be pricks no matter what happened, but now we'll never know, since from Day 1 their neighbors have been pricks right back.

[Edited on March 29, 2010 at 1:09 PM. Reason : ]

3/29/2010 1:07:38 PM

No one is more Pro-Israel than GrumpyGOP. There is no denying that. This is why responding to you in such topics is wasting everyones time.

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" And they suffer far more than necessary because of the tactics they use and because of the repeated aggressive action on the part of their fellow Arabs who claim to support them. This is not to say that it's right, but it's how things are."

Did anyone else read this as "They should bend over and let Israel give it to them as they see fit...and like it!"?

[Edited on March 29, 2010 at 5:16 PM. Reason : .]

3/29/2010 5:15:10 PM

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"I don't recall anything being done to Egypt, Syria, Jordan, or Iraq in 1948."

They were invaded a few times afterwords.

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"And they suffer far more than necessary because of the tactics they use and because of the repeated aggressive action on the part of their fellow Arabs who claim to support them."

You can't hold them responsible for things others are doing.

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"I suppose it's possible that the Israelis were going to be pricks no matter what happened"

They've been pricks to innocent people, I think that's evidence enough.

3/29/2010 7:01:43 PM

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"No one is more Pro-Israel than GrumpyGOP."

More than once I have said we need to rein them in, and I mean that.

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"Did anyone else read this as "They should bend over and let Israel give it to them as they see fit...and like it!"?"

If they want to improve their situation, then...yeah, kinda, if by "bending over" you mean "stop using violence even in the face of violence." Bending over like that and taking it from Britain got independence for India and Pakistan. Bending over and taking it got American blacks out from under the foot of Jim Crow.

You want Israel to stop being such a shit? You're going to have to kill its support base in America. You want to do that? You need to create a situation in which Israel's opponents don't look like terrorists. I'm trying to tell you how the world is -- for better or worse, Americans currently support Israel because of the image Palestinians and the Arab states have. I never said it was right. I never said it was something I supported. I don't support AIDS, either, but it's a fact of life.

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"They were invaded a few times afterwords."

Generally in wars that they started.

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"They've been pricks to innocent people, I think that's evidence enough."

So have the Palestinians and other Arabs. So has pretty much everyone involved in every conflict ever.

Do you think that the situation would be as bad as it is today if everyone involved had accepted the UN Mandate in 1947? Do you think that the Israelis would have invaded an independent Palestine right off?

3/29/2010 7:56:42 PM

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"If they want to improve their situation, then...yeah, kinda, if by "bending over" you mean "stop using violence even in the face of violence." Bending over like that and taking it from Britain got independence for India and Pakistan. Bending over and taking it got American blacks out from under the foot of Jim Crow."

bending over got America its independence...no wait...thats not how this game works.

3/29/2010 8:31:26 PM

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"Bending over and taking it got American blacks out from under the foot of Jim Crow."

And some of them got lynched.

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"You need to create a situation in which Israel's opponents don't look like terrorists."

Or you can make one where Israel's opponents look like jews instead of brown people.

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"So have the Palestinians and other Arabs."

"He did it too" is not an acceptable defense for killing innocent people.

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"Do you think that the situation would be as bad as it is today if everyone involved had accepted the UN Mandate in 1947? Do you think that the Israelis would have invaded an independent Palestine right off?"

It would be just as bad. They might have done things a little slower and steadier, but they still would have rocketed and bulldozed houses and kicked out all the brown people so they could build more houses for jews. They really have a much more effective way of acquiring land now, I guess if you steal enough, you start to get good at it.

3/30/2010 1:09:05 AM

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"bending over got America its independence...no wait...thats not how this game works."

The Palestinians have tried violence. It hasn't worked. Their system has gotten them no gains, only more justification for repression.

I'll just point out at this point that I'm not advocating violence. You are.

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"And some of them got lynched."

I never claimed that the second Palestinians laid down their arms everything would get better. However, it is the only way that leads to them eventually getting what they want, and it is the way that leads to the least overall repression and death.

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"Or you can make one where Israel's opponents look like jews instead of brown people."

Well, this idea involves magic. Mine involves a strategy that has been employed several times in the real world with positive results.

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""He did it too" is not an acceptable defense for killing innocent people. "

Largely irrelevant unless your only goal is to paint Israelis as assholes. If you goal is to actually improve the situation for everybody in the region, you need to start trying to understand what the Israeli mindset is, how it got there, and how it might realistically be changed.

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"It would be just as bad."

Maybe, but of course you can no more prove that than I can prove that it would have been better. What we know is that a peaceful resolution never really got a chance because it was rejected immediately and out of hand by one of the parties involved.

3/30/2010 1:47:00 AM

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"You need to create a situation in which Israel's opponents don't look like terrorists."

Israel has commanded Americans to label Palestinians as terrorists so that Israel can continue carrying out and justifying their own terrorist activity. Except they use tanks and an air force to do it.

Nothing you or anyone can say will justify anything Israel does.

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"Largely irrelevant unless your only goal is to paint Israelis as assholes. If you goal is to actually improve the situation for everybody in the region, you need to start trying to understand what the Israeli mindset is, how it got there, and how it might realistically be changed."

How about Israel tries to understand the mindset of the people who are already there who's homes they plow over to make room for more Israeli settlements. It is their responsibility to play nice and invite peace, not the other way around.

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"I never claimed that the second Palestinians laid down their arms everything would get better. However, it is the only way that leads to them eventually getting what they want, and it is the way that leads to the least overall repression and death."

Well sure, because they'll have no homes or land to call their own. Israel will have completely wiped them out or driven them clear off the land by that point.

[Edited on March 30, 2010 at 2:04 AM. Reason : .]

3/30/2010 2:01:57 AM

Quote :

"Israel has commanded Americans to label Palestinians as terrorists so that Israel can continue carrying out and justifying their own terrorist activity."

At least now the reality of your position, which seems to involve a massive world-domination Jewish conspiracy, is coming out.

But even if you're right, you know what makes the Zionist World Order's job a lot harder? Arabs not fighting, not taking up arms. Arabs using nonviolence to the exclusion of other tactics. You know what makes their job a lot easier? Blowing up buses and discos, launching rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas, and invading their country every couple of decades.

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"How about Israel tries to understand the mindset of the people who are already there who's homes they plow over to make room for more Israeli settlements."

Yes, in an ideal world the Israelis would wake up tomorrow and realize that they're stupid. But there's not much incentive for them to do that. You want to incentive it? Get America and others to bring Israel to heel. You know how to do that? Quit giving them a reason to associate Arabs with terrorism.

And the thing is it's not just their responsibility to play nice and invite peace. BOTH PARTIES HAVE DONE SHITTY, INEXCUSABLE THINGS. It's both sets of pricks. The Jews got a mandate from the United fucking Nations to start a country and the Arabs went apeshit, which made the Jews go apeshit, which made the Arabs stay apeshit, which made the Jews stay apeshit, on and on ad nauseum. Or fuck, if you prefer it, the Jews went apeshit first with their actions against the British in Palestine. You know what? It doesn't really fucking matter. All the original people who went apeshit are dead or senile. Everyone now is just apeshit because everyone's been apeshit as long as they can remember.

Israel, right now, doesn't have much incentive to play nice. The Palestinians, however, have every incentive to play nice. Which means one outcome is more attainable than the other. I'm telling you the way that will work, not the way that is "fair."

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"Well sure, because they'll have no homes or land to call their own. Israel will have completely wiped them out or driven them clear off the land by that point."

Just so I understand you, it is your position that if the Palestinians abandoned violence the Israelis would immediately attack them?

3/30/2010 2:52:21 AM

I got one

Israel has nukes, and if shit collapses will use them

3/30/2010 7:26:14 AM

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/31/palin-warns-of-second-holocaust-if-iran-gains-nuclear-weapons/?fbid=fJJM_dodMOX#more-97576

LOL

3/31/2010 11:12:37 AM

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"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has changed his plans and will not attend President Barack Obama’s nuclear summit beginning Monday in Washington, an Israeli official tells POLITICO. Netanyahu had announced plans to attend earlier this week. Israeli media is reporting that Netanyahu backed out after reports that Middle Eastern nations would use the 47-nation summit to criticize Israel’s failure to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty."

goes back the other way.....

4/8/2010 6:25:23 PM

Will these other Middle Eastern nations use a flow chart to illustrate their disapproval of Israel?

4/10/2010 12:17:52 AM