holy crap you people care too much about unimportant shit

4/23/2010 4:02:54 PM

Quote :

"Surely you can see the difference between individuals voicing their opinions and the government taking an official stance on a position."

If you have such an issue with a national day of prayer (since you are in the minority here and we don't want to oppress minorities) then we should probably do away with every other 'special' day/month just so other minorities don't feel oppressed.

Quote :

"Praying = asking an imaginary friend to influence reality in some way"

lol? Now you're dumb for thinking that.


[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:03 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:03:09 PM

^^ Yeah man religion never affects anything

*sees South Park creators get death threats*

4/23/2010 4:03:34 PM

Golovko I think our definitions of prayer are not aligning. My working definition of prayer is a petition to God to provide some service.

Then when you claim prayer works, you are effectively stating that you petitioned god and it responded in some measurable way. If this is true, prayer must affect change more often than non-prayer affects change. This has been tested and is not the case.

Are you working with some other definition of prayer?

Quote :

"If you believe in all that this country stands for then you should have no problem in a person voicing their beliefs as loud as you would voice your opposing belief. "

I have no problem with a person voicing their beliefs. I have a problem with beliefs being institutionalized into a national event.

Quote :

"Are you saying you need someone to hold your hand and tell you what you should and should not believe in via 'studies'?"

Yes, I am saying that evidence and logic play a very important role in my decision making process

4/23/2010 4:05:12 PM

Quote :

"Show me one provable event where prayer worked. Any. In all of human history."

I believe there is a character limit to posts on TWW.

Quote :

"Yes, I am saying that evidence and logic play a very important role in my decision making process"

Do you lack the ability to gather evidence and think logically for yourself? I can see why you want a study to prove everything for you.


[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:06 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:05:30 PM

Quote :

"^^ Yeah man religion never affects anything *sees South Park creators get death threats*"

please do your best not to be a dumbass, okay? i would agree that the people sending death threats ALSO care too much about unimportant shit

just because your unimportant shit is different than their unimportant shit, it doesn't make you any less retarded for getting your panties in a wad over it

who gives a rat's ass about "national prayer day"? pray, don't pray, pray to god, pray to a cow, it makes NO difference whatsoever...unless, of course, people can't fight the urge to be whiny bitches

4/23/2010 4:06:14 PM

Quote :

"so we know why YOU have difficulty comprehending the power of prayer"

Well, do enlighten me about its power. I acknowledge that it can have an effect on a person's psychology, but it remains that you have to apply the "false" modifier to any those effects. False consolation, false confidence, and so on.

Quote :

"pray, don't pray, pray to god, pray to a cow, it makes NO difference whatsoever"

That's exactly the position of people who oppose NDP.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:09 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 4:06:25 PM

Quote :

"Well, do enlighten me about its power. I acknowledge that it can have an effect on a person's psychology, but it remains that you have to have to apply the "false" modifier to any those effects. False consolation, false confidence, and so on."

Like I said, you've made it clear why YOU have difficulty here.

Quote :

"This has been tested and is not the case."

Oh really? Did Fidel Castro tell his young students to close their eyes and pray for God to provide them with food and when they opened them there was nothing? Then he asked they close their eyes and ask Fidel to provide them with food and upon opening their eyes there was a fruit on each of the little children's desks? Thats very strong evidence indeed.

I'm sure there are numerous other scientifically accurate studies with similar results.


[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:07:52 PM

You rest your case on my typo?

4/23/2010 4:10:46 PM

Quote :

" Oh really? Did Fidel Castro tell his young students to close their eyes and pray for God to provide them with food and when they opened them there was nothing? Then he asked they close their eyes and ask Fidel to provide them with food and upon opening their eyes there was a fruit on each of the little children's desks? Thats very strong evidence indeed."

What?

Try this: http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:16 PM. Reason : Oh, I seee, you were giving evidence of bad proof]

4/23/2010 4:12:18 PM

Quote :

"who gives a rat's ass about "national prayer day"? pray, don't pray, pray to god, pray to a cow, it makes NO difference whatsoever...unless, of course, people can't fight the urge to be whiny bitches"

More than .01 dollars is being spent annually on this waste of time and money and brainpower. The state is officially sponsoring an unconstitutional event. District court has ruled correctly and the administration chooses to waste even more time and money challenging the ruling simply to pander to voters.

I man, it's not Afghanistan or anything, but especially in the time of budget cuts and people losing their jobs it's a big deal that we waste time and money on this bullshit.

And Golovko, what the hell are you on?

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:15 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:15:22 PM

Quote :

"You rest your case on my typo?"

What case exactly? YOU don't believe in prayer and I do...why do I have to make a case as to why I believe in something that you don't?

Quote :

"What?"

I see that went WAY over your head...let me see if i can search google for that study so you can understand.


[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:16 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:15:31 PM

Burden of Proof, meet Golovko. Golovko, Burden of Proof.

Also, prayer kills children. See above. The absence of prayer has never killed a child.

4/23/2010 4:17:22 PM

burden of proof? I missed the part where I'm trying to invite you to Church on sunday?

Quote :

"The absence of prayer has never killed a child."

ROFL! You do realize children die EVERYDAY with or without prayer right? Just want to make sure you realize how stupid you sound.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:19 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:18:27 PM

I provided a link Golovko, you don't have to.

And prayer isn't a belief, it either works or it doesn't, it's one of the few measurable things about religion.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:20 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:19:53 PM

Quote :

"I provided a link Golovko, you don't have to. And prayer isn't a belief, it either works or it doesn't, it's one of the few measurable things about religion."

So let me get this straight...this study is trying to disprove that praying and asking that you don't have complications through heart surgery means you won't have complications? You needed a study for that?

4/23/2010 4:22:03 PM

It is dumb for you to believe in prayer. It is not dumb for me to not believe in it.

Holy shit man. PRAYER CAUSED THE CHILD'S DEATH IN THAT AND OTHER INSTANCES. It wasn't like, oh they prayed, and the kid also died. The kid died BECAUSE the adults chose prayer over medical treatment.

Never has prayer saved a child when not praying would have killed it. I'm certain this point will also be lost on you because you are deluded and think that prayer does anything.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/superstition.htm

Also, that study was attempting to show the measurable affect of prayer on healing, not disprove anything. The results of that and every other study on prayer do a pretty effective job of disproving it however.

Also, the fact that it doesn't fucking work is a pretty good disproof of prayer.


[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:25 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:22:43 PM

Quote :

"The absence of prayer has never killed a child."

Brilliant statement there, dumbass. Children don't die if they don't pray.

I believe Christians are as baffled about those types of fanatics almost as much as non-Christiams...so you really aren't proving anything to me or anyone else.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:25 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:24:15 PM

Quote :

"why do I have to make a case as to why I believe in something that you don't?"

I've proposed that prayer is neither moral nor useful (as asserted by Lumex). You've inserted yourself into that debate, but haven't really made any point other than to say I don't understand the power of prayer. That may be the case, but we'll never know for sure unless you support your assertion with some actual evidence and reason.

Quote :

"Children don't die if they don't pray."

Wow.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:27 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 4:25:35 PM

Golovko

Could you please respond to this statement

Quote :

"I think our definitions of prayer are not aligning. My working definition of prayer is a petition to God to provide some service. Then when you claim prayer works, you are effectively stating that you petitioned god and it responded in some measurable way. If this is true, prayer must affect change more often than non-prayer affects change. Are you working with some other definition of prayer? "

4/23/2010 4:27:09 PM

Fuck me. Please pray for some brain cells.

It's not up to me to prove anything. I'm not the one making the claim that prayer works.

"Prayer does not work" is not a claim. It's a proven fact. Many studies have been done. Real world observations support this fact. Children get cancer and die no matter how much people pray for them.

"Prayer works" is a claim that has no basis in fact. Until real world observations can support this claim, it will be the logical equivalent to "unicorns are real".

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:30 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:27:50 PM

Quote :

"Crabb ruled atheists and agnostics could sue because they were injured by being made to feel like outsiders on the National Day of Prayer. She rejected the administration's argument that "psychological harm" wasn't enough to support a lawsuit. "

Quote :

"could sue because they were injured by being made to feel like outsiders"

LOL @ this as a standing to bring suit.

Breaking news...
Black History Month is unconstitutional because it makes others feel like outsiders.

4/23/2010 4:27:59 PM

Quote :

"I've proposed that prayer is neither moral nor useful (as asserted by Lumex). You've inserted yourself into that debate, but haven't really made any point other than to say I don't understand the power of prayer. That may be the case, but we'll never know for sure unless you support your assertion with some actual evidence and reason."

I inserted myself in the debate by stating that its my God given right and right as an American citizen to stand by my beliefs. This does not mean I have to convince everyone else around me to join me. You too can enjoy that very freedom as you are. Except the difference is it bothers you so much that someone believes in something you don't that you have to go out of your way to try and belittle them.

Quote :

"I think our definitions of prayer are not aligning. My working definition of prayer is a petition to God to provide some service."

I'll respond to this in as simply as possible and probably fumble it a little. Prayer isn't asking Santa for gifts, invisible forcefields to protect you against injury, long life, or whatever else you can imagine. Prayer is a form of communicating with your god (in my case God) and in a way show your devotion. There is a lot more to it then that but this is keeping it simple.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:33 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:28:29 PM

this thread brings the lols

funniest of all is knowing that the sand in disco_stu's vagina just keeps getting grittier and grittier

i think i will now actively support national prayer day because the people who are so vehemently against are too retarded to support in any way

4/23/2010 4:35:50 PM

Quote :

"Black History Month is unconstitutional because it makes others feel like outsiders."

That isn't the logic.

Quote :

"Except the difference is it bothers you so much that someone believes in something you don't that you have to go out of your way to try and belittle them."

I've argued the case according to its merits. If that makes you feel belittled, tough shit.

4/23/2010 4:36:04 PM

Quote :

"If that makes you feel belittled, tough shit."

try |tri|
verb ( tries, tried)
1 [ intrans. ] make an attempt or effort to do something

4/23/2010 4:37:08 PM

Quote :

"this thread brings the lols funniest of all is knowing that the sand in disco_stu's vagina just keeps getting grittier and grittier i think i will now actively support national prayer day because the people who are so vehemently against are too retarded to support in any way"

I'll note that you are for our administration wasting your tax money in all future threads regarding healthcare or any other government spending. Thanks! nm, I guessed incorrectly that you're on that side of the fence. My point stands though that the fundamental issue is the administration is sponsoring a day that's celebrates delusion.

Quote :

"I inserted myself in the debate by stating that its my God given right and right as an American citizen to stand by my beliefs. This does not mean I have to convince everyone else around me to join me. You too can enjoy that very freedom as you are. Except the difference is it bothers you so much that someone believes in something you don't that you have to go out of your way to try and belittle them."

Maybe we should go back to the crux of the issue. Is Prayer worth having a National Day over? Is the existence of it in fact unconstitutional?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I agree that having a National Prayer day is tantamount to respecting an establishment of religion.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:41 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:53 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:37:21 PM

Quote :

"show your devotion"

Man, how did I forget that?


It provides false consolation. It corrupts the minds of the young and impressionable. It reinforces a delusion. It wastes time and energy. It is often motivated by selfishness and solipsism. It is servile behavior.

4/23/2010 4:42:36 PM

Quote :

"Black History Month is unconstitutional because it makes others feel like outsiders."

Quote :

"That isn't the logic. "

Oh! I see it now. It's all so clear with your well reason'd logic.

Quote :

"Crabb ruled atheists and agnostics could sue because they were injured by being made to feel like outsiders on the National Day of Prayer."

This direct quote seems to make it pretty clear that this, indeed, is the logic.

care to elaborate on your position?

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:52 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:51:43 PM

I think your quote is taken out of context. No where does it say that National Prayer Day is unconstitutional because people could sue. It's just a statement.

It doesn't follow that Black History Month is unconstitutional because Black History Month in no way respects the establishment of religion.

4/23/2010 4:59:10 PM

"Crabb ruled atheists and agnostics could sue because..."

not

"Crabb ruled the holiday to be unconstitutional because..."

4/23/2010 5:01:27 PM

Quote :

"It doesn't follow that Black History Month is unconstitutional because Black History Month in no way respects the establishment of religion."

it alienates a lot more people then 1 day of prayer does.

That is going by your logic here.

4/23/2010 5:03:28 PM

my logic?

My logic is that it respects the establishment of religion, which is directly prohibited by the 1st line in the Bill of Rights.

It has nothing to do with alienating anyone. Jesus, you're obtuse.

4/23/2010 5:04:25 PM

Your logic is flawed. Let me find a study to prove it to you...

4/23/2010 5:10:47 PM

This thread turned out how I expected it would. Again, discussing the "merits" of prayer is not going to solve anything. Some people believe that you can communicate telepathically with the designer of the universe, and he'll honor that communication in ways that will manifest in the real world. It's not very different than any other brand of mysticism, except that it's supported by dogma assembled over many centuries, and reinforced by indoctrination. There are other people that only believe in things that can be verified with in the physical world. There isn't any in between. You can choose myth or you can choose reality, it's up to you. People prayed to Zeus thousands of years ago, and they thought it worked. Were they right?

Anyway, none of that matters. The point is that the federal government should not even be designating holidays like this, much less one that encourages practicing any sort of religion. Separation of church and state isn't that fucking hard to understand. The majority of what the government does is unconstitutional.

Quote :

"Edit--Also, kudos to the OP for writing his intro in such a way that all religion and prayer were thrown out as being the most stupid conceivable human endeavors from the start, and then saying there was no need to discuss it because his opinion was such obvious fact. I guess maybe you were trying to make the thread neutral, but in reality you made it as biased as possible and then asked for a neutral response. It's a good way to make people look stupid -- insult the hell out of them, then say you aren't insulting them, then ask them to respond in a level-headed fashion. Fuck you, d5str0y3r."

Your views on whether or not prayer is a worthwhile endeavor should have nothing to do with whether you think there should be a national day of prayer, or if it's even unconstitutional. If congress passed a law that made a "National Day of Watermelon," I wouldn't support it. It's not because I don't like watermelon. It's because I don't think the federal government has any authority to create such a thing.

By the way, I'm not insulting anyone. I don't respect your religion, or your belief in God, or your belief in prayer. I think it's all bullshit. I can still respect you as a person, but I'm not going to pretend that I think those beliefs have any validity whatsoever. I have serious disagreements on political and religious issues with good friends and close family.

I sincerely believe that religion is a destructive force in the world. It causes people to believe in fantasies, and they act on those fantasies. It gives people a false sense of comfort, and encourages them to turn to "God" or "prayer" rather than real solutions. It would be irresponsible for me to allow religions to continue converting people to their cause while I just stay silent for the sake of seeming "tolerant" or not seeming like an evangelical atheist. I'm not asking anyone to buy into doctrine or dogma. I'm just asking people to think critically about the things they were raised to believe.

4/23/2010 6:01:55 PM

1) Waste of political capital and federal time and money

2) Stupid parents kill their kids for any number of reasons, prayer has nothing to do with it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/09/national/main2778653.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/index.html
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2005/06/547.ars
http://hamptonroads.com/2010/04/norfolk-mother-gets-17-years-death-abuse-babies?cid=mr
just to name a few

3) At some point, some asshole is going to have the federal holiday known as "Christmas" declared unconstitutional and get run out of town by the angry mob that now has to work on Christmas. Sometimes, you just have to leave well enough alone. Taking away people's celebrations aren't going to get you into their good graces and isn't going ot endear them to your point of view.

4/23/2010 7:18:01 PM

The bill's wording, particularly "an establishment of religion" clearly indicates a particular establishment, and not religion as a whole. The National Day of Prayer is constitutional.

4/23/2010 7:20:41 PM

i agree that its not constitutional but because of supported reasons not inane ramblings like ^^^. the amendment doesnt pass the lemon test.

now, to prayer:

prayer does not hurt anyone, and is not a mental illness. psychologists have even identified a mechanism in the brain that makes some people more open to religion, even if its not true its hardly an illness or defect.

you loosely mention the double blind studies that show that when people are prayed for they don't do any better than control group. however, you ignore the studies that show that people who pray tend to have fewer complications after surgery. now, this hardly proves god but it highlights the positive effect of prayer. anyone with even a highschool understanding of psychology should recognize that the idea that people who have a positive perspective on their recovery because of whatever reason will actually do better. take god out of the equation and there is still nothing wrong with it, without god prayer is really just talking through things and meditating and having an inner monologue about life. how is any of this negative? if it provides any amount of hope or comfort how is that a bad thing? if god is not real and prayer does not work there is still no harm and still some benefit. and even if praying isn't effective it surely isn't hurting anyone.

but all of this is irrelevant to the issue, the merits of prayer have absolutely nothing to do with the court ruling. the judge found that the day does not meet the requirements of the lemon test. you all are just using this as an example to attack and bash something that has no impact on your life. i wonder why, why do you care if people talk to an imaginary magical being? are you jealous of the comfort they get from it? did someone give you some pamphlet or website pointing out the numerous contradictions in religion and now you feel the need to tell everyone about your profoundly new perspective while sitting on your high horse and pretending to be some kind of intellectual giant?

4/23/2010 7:27:35 PM

Quote :

"The National Day of Prayer is constitutional."

negative

The Court's decision in this case established the "Lemon test", which details the requirements for legislation concerning religion. It consists of three prongs:

1. The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

If any of these 3 prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman

the bill for the observance day fails when it comes to #1

4/23/2010 7:31:25 PM

It's true that prayer can have have what amounts to a placebo effect. The side effects of prayer, however, are no illusion.

And don't conflate prayer with meditation; they're two entirely different things. There is no delusion involved in meditation.

4/23/2010 7:41:11 PM

what are the "side effects" of prayer? you can't list any, there are none. instead, you will reply with examples of people, not prayer, doing bad things in the misguided name of religion, not prayer.

4/23/2010 7:46:46 PM

No, I listed things that are associated with prayer. Those would be the side effects - things you wouldn't get with a sugar pill. Again, not an exhaustive list:

It provides false consolation. It corrupts the minds of the young and impressionable. It reinforces a delusion. It wastes time and energy. It is often motivated by selfishness and solipsism. It is servile behavior.

And by "it", of course, I mean prayer.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 7:55 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 7:55:19 PM

why is it false consolation, why not just consolation? and how then is consolation a bad thing?

so if i pray for you, i can corrupt your mind? no, thats ridiculous. oh you meant the person praying? thats ridiculous too; if people are going to be corrupted by something as simple as prayer than they have problems outside of anything we are describing. but thats beside the point because its simply your opinion and is based on nothing except your opinion.

after that first line those are your opinions and not results (or "side effects").

4/23/2010 8:27:10 PM

It is false consolation because it is consolation derived from a lie, or a delusion.

If you pray for people, particularly people who are young or impressionable, and they're aware of it, than you are leading them to believe that things can be achieved or obtained through telepathic communication with non-existent beings.

I would consider these to be just a few of the potential side effects of prayer. And yes, I did say potential. It is not unimaginable that some prayer can be relatively harmless, except to the mind of the person engaged in it. But that's a far cry from conceding that such activity is even remotely "wholesome", which was the point I took issue with.

Whatever good that might come from prayer could also be derived from meditation or, in some rare medical cases, a sugar pill. But neither of those alternatives require a person to engage in wishful thinking, seek real world results through superstitious rituals, or imagine that the universe is concerned with their daily affairs.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 9:50 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 9:30:19 PM

Quote :

" however, you ignore the studies that show that people who pray tend to have fewer complications after surgery."

[citation needed]

4/23/2010 9:41:55 PM

ITT lazarus (oh the irony), tells us how when his mother would kiss his boo boos to make them all better as a child, it destroyed him, by consoling him with a lie and a delusion and a superstitious ritual, she corrupted his mind.

4/23/2010 10:11:52 PM

Or how 'bout I give you a citation?
Largest Study of Third-Party Prayer Suggests Such Prayer Not Effective In Reducing Complications Following Heart Surgery
http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

4/23/2010 10:18:51 PM

How is kissing boo-boos a superstitious ritual?

And by the way, if you're looking for irony, check out the endless supply of unprovoked ad hominem attacks from the religious apologists in this thread.

4/23/2010 10:21:46 PM

To some extent ideology is overriding practical concerns in this thread. If you oppose the far-religious right, then strategically the best move is to deny them petty, irrelevant bullshit to get upset about. Whether there is or isn't a national day of prayer doesn't actually affect anybody, but it riles up a small number of atheists and libertarians while commanding the attention of much LARGER numbers of conservative Christians. I think Obama's doing the smart thing by denying a really scary foe another flag to rally around.

I think the NDP is borderline at best, Constitutionally speaking. But it's also completely irrelevant to everyone except the fringe, and if it'll keep the big scary fringe a little more subdued then I say keep the thing rather than start a battle in the culture war that Democrats and moderate Republicans never seem to win.

^Kissing boo-boos is something that has zero positive effect, and is done simply to provide empty comfort. Given the filth inside an average human mouth, it probably does more harm than good. He's actually got a fairly reasonable comparison there, which surprises me.

And oh, d5str0y3r -- if you are capable of respecting people that you sincerely believe are party to one of the most destructive forces in the world, then there's something wrong with you.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 11:22 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 11:20:52 PM

^^^ Citation irrelevant to claim. Claim was "people who pray tend to have fewer complications", not "people who are prayed for tend to have fewer complications" I don't find any support for the first claim other than what you might glean from the studies about having positive outlooks in general post surgery, but your citation does nothing to support or deny the original claim.

^^ Are you suggesting that motherly kisses have healing properties? Or that the act of a kiss somehow alters the healing process?

^ You wound me sir. I may not be the best intellectual mind here, but I try to at least stay within the bounds of reasonableness.

4/23/2010 11:25:09 PM