the truth stings sometimes, I know.

5/12/2010 7:34:19 PM

Quote :

"Aggregated over the history of each respective religion, I'm not so sure."

Ah, you're right. How silly of me not take into account The Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition, when discussing current global affairs.

Quote :

"That was so 2001...come on now."

You've got to be kidding.

5/12/2010 9:43:53 PM

Quote :

"You've got to be kidding."

Get the fuck over it dude, its almost a decade ago. There are people in this world that live in constant fear of serious attacks not just government/media up played threats. Worse things HAVE happened.

The greater tragedy is the bullshit the Bush administration dragged us into following those events and profited from.

[Edited on May 12, 2010 at 10:03 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2010 10:01:05 PM

Quote :

"the truth stings sometimes, I know."

yeah your "truth" is;

1. christians arent that christian-ty and we are lucky they arent because they would be blowing shit up.

2. muslims are not really that violent, and they only reason we are fighting in the middle east if because we are racist against muslims.


most of the time, while I dont agree with you, you present lucid, intelligent thought.

this is retarded and unworthy of anyone trying to do anything but troll a message board.

5/13/2010 7:58:49 AM

Quote :

"Ah, you're right. How silly of me not take into account The Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition, when discussing current global affairs."

It is surely folly to disregard history entirely. I even admitted that in recent times Muslim extremists are trumping Christian extremists for violence.

Though I'm sure if I was an Arab I would think that the US waging war on Arabic countries is an extension of Christian violence. I think that's what moron was getting at.

5/13/2010 8:59:18 AM

right, because we consistently post videos of us beheading muslims while chanting "christ is great"

5/13/2010 9:04:57 AM

Hey, didn't say I agreed with it. Just saying look at it from their perspective as well. Surely Israeli aggression (or retaliation, I don't give a shit what you call it) will be interpreted as religious violence and we support them in that.

5/13/2010 9:12:41 AM

Quote :

"Get the fuck over it dude, its almost a decade ago. There are people in this world that live in constant fear of serious attacks not just government/media up played threats."

Tell that to the passengers on Northwest Flight 253, or the soldiers at Fort Hood, or the tourists that happened to be visiting Times Square a couple weeks ago.

But you're partly right. There are indeed a lot of people around the world who are in constant fear of attacks from the same Islamist fascists.

Quote :

"It is surely folly to disregard history entirely."

Fair enough, but it shouldn't be used to obfuscate or change the subject, which I have to assume is the point of bringing up anti-abortion violence in a thread about Islamism.

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 9:31 AM. Reason : ]

5/13/2010 9:24:19 AM

^^^ don’t we? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article7088548.ece

5/13/2010 9:46:41 AM

hmmm... I guess I missed the whole, "christ is great chants" could you point me to the minute:second mark in the video?

just because it is violence, doesn't mean it is christian motivated violence. Now, the muslims can insinuate whatever they want. However, no insinuation is needed to interpret ALLAHU AKBAR while a head is being sawed off.

[Edited on May 13, 2010 at 10:09 AM. Reason : suck it]

5/13/2010 10:08:12 AM

That video is proof of the West's imperialist effort to subject Muslims to freedom and democracy.

5/13/2010 10:29:23 AM

Quote :

"Tell that to the passengers on Northwest Flight 253, or the soldiers at Fort Hood, or the tourists that happened to be visiting Times Square a couple weeks ago. But you're partly right. There are indeed a lot of people around the world who are in constant fear of attacks from the same Islamist fascists."

Boofuckinhoo, do you need a pity party or a hug?

5/13/2010 12:21:52 PM

lol, golovko is faced with the truth and lashes out ITT

5/13/2010 1:44:51 PM

That's the Egyptian in him.

5/13/2010 1:47:45 PM

Quote :

"hmmm... I guess I missed the whole, "christ is great chants" could you point me to the minute:second mark in the video? just because it is violence, doesn't mean it is christian motivated violence. Now, the muslims can insinuate whatever they want. However, no insinuation is needed to interpret ALLAHU AKBAR while a head is being sawed off."

They are obviously different in content, but there is absolutely no difference in the affect on their society. You surely must realize that there are enough of our politicians and citizens who go on the TV and Internet and wale about how we are a "Christian" nation etc. and that is what we stand for. You don't think the foreigners don't put 2 and 2 together to associate our military actions with some latent Christian crusade against Islam? Not to mention that the Palin-type supporters would blatantly say we're in a war against Islam, and you would likely agree with them.

You can't both say we are a Christian nation, and acknowledge that our collateral damage is disproportionately weighted towards innocent muslims, and not realize that the countries we attack are going to look at our actions as a Christian crusade.

5/13/2010 1:51:28 PM

you see, you keep falling back to the need to insinuate christian violence....


insinuations are one thing. screaming allahu akbar is quite another.




We can speculate about christian violence until we're blue in the face, but islamist violence is quite literally in our face and no interpretation is required.

5/13/2010 2:02:59 PM

Quote :

"insinuations are one thing. screaming allahu akbar is quite another. "

Except it's not.

What you're saying is that the Grandfather Clause for voting wasn't actually racist because it merely insinuates racism, and doesn't call for it directly.

5/13/2010 2:06:36 PM

ok, so because we were racist in the past that means that we are christian crusaders in the present.

troll.

5/13/2010 2:16:24 PM

when there is a vocal sect in Christianity as loud and prominent as those of radical muslims, indiscriminately killing in the name of Jesus across international borders I will consider your point.

until then, you make no sense. there are nutjobs of every religion. there are only nutjobs in one religion acting like assholes on such a grand scale.

5/13/2010 2:20:42 PM

Quote :

"lol, golovko is faced with the truth and lashes out ITT"

Faced with the truth about what?

5/13/2010 2:36:26 PM

People are always too optimistic in good times and too pessimistic in bad times

5/13/2010 8:23:38 PM

Quote :

"75% of Muslims are radicals"

5/13/2010 9:34:30 PM

Quote :

"You can't both say we are a Christian nation, and acknowledge that our collateral damage is disproportionately weighted towards innocent muslims, and not realize that the countries we attack are going to look at our actions as a Christian crusade."

People are not entitled to create their own systems of logic, and only a fool would respect such a blatant non sequitur as that. There is absolutely no reasonable basis for concluding that the West's war on Islamic terrorism has in any way been a Christian crusade. Anyone asserting otherwise is either being ignorant, malicious, or both.

Quote :

"They are obviously different in content, but there is absolutely no difference in the affect on their society."

So, what are you suggesting, that we let our national security interests (not to mention the equally noble goal of exporting freedom and democracy) suffer because some people have some misapprehensions?

[Edited on May 14, 2010 at 9:43 AM. Reason : ]

5/14/2010 9:37:06 AM

Quote :

"There is absolutely no reasonable basis for concluding that the West's war on Islamic terrorism has in any way been a Christian crusade"

wow

this is self-evidently wrong.

Do you not pay an iota of attention to the representatives on the right, when it comes to religion? You don't think that's a big part of their motivation?

It's obvious that the executive branch and military don't execute it this way, but this is what's going through the minds of a good many politicians, and this is what the people on the other side see. You're blind or delusional if you don't understand that the muslims believe we are attacking them in part because of their religion.

Quote :

"So, what are you suggesting, that we let our national security interests (not to mention the equally noble goal of exporting freedom and democracy) suffer because some people have some misapprehensions? "

LOL where did I remotely suggest this? The solution isn't to do what needs to be done to fight extremists, the solution is to make sure the extremist in our own government don't gain to much power, and make it clear that they don't represent the majority.

[Edited on May 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM. Reason : ]

5/14/2010 9:00:00 PM

I mean, if you consider violent wahibism a "religion" then yea I guess we're attacking them for their religion?

5/14/2010 9:13:31 PM

Quote :

"not to mention the equally noble goal of exporting freedom and democracy"

I might be reading this out of context, but was this sarcasm or do you believe that is the goal of the United States?

5/15/2010 1:51:15 AM

Quote :

"Do you not pay an iota of attention to the representatives on the right, when it comes to religion? You don't think that's a big part of their motivation?"

I said reasonable basis. That there are a handful of religious zealots in the Republican Party does not constitute a reasonable basis for calling the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq religious wars. And I think it's both insulting and inaccurate to suggest that the Muslim world is too stupid to understand that.

Quote :

"I might be reading this out of context, but was this sarcasm or do you believe that is the goal of the United States?"

You're right. We required Iraq and Afghanistan to have constitutional democracies because we thought that would make things easier for us.

[Edited on May 15, 2010 at 8:06 AM. Reason : ]

5/15/2010 8:06:10 AM

Quote :

"(not to mention the equally noble goal of exporting freedom and democracy)"

LOL of the week!

5/15/2010 3:43:49 PM

Quote :

"You're right. We required Iraq and Afghanistan to have constitutional democracies because we thought that would make things easier for us."

Lol what?? Is that what you're buying into these days?

Iraq = oil and establishing a military presence on all fronts of Iran.

5/15/2010 3:48:05 PM

You missed the whole purpose of it:

Iraq = oil and establishing a military presence on all fronts of Iran. (ISRAEL'S SECURITY)

Saddam was getting uppity and threatening Israel mildly, just like Iran is doing these days. The Iraq War plan was hatched by Jews and Zionists in the US and Israeli governments. (fact, can be looked up)

Iran is next.
Then Syria.

And then Israel will be safe.

5/15/2010 3:58:35 PM

as a liberal and someone who is not religious, i always wonder why other liberal posters always tend to defend Muslims in these type of threads but have no problem bashing Christianity in others. hey guys, they're both fucked up.

5/15/2010 4:32:46 PM

Islamism is fucked up and opposed to everything any decent liberal is supposed to stand for.

I wouldn't call Golovko and 0EPII1 liberals, though. They're conspiracy-minded crackpots.

[Edited on May 15, 2010 at 5:05 PM. Reason : ]

5/15/2010 5:05:09 PM

i was referring to moron, and i think God was in one of these threads defending Muslims a few weeks ago

5/15/2010 5:23:54 PM

Conspiracy?

Is it a conspiracy that Israel flew over several Arab countries in 1980 (81?) and attacked Iraq unilaterally because it was scared of Iraq's fledgling nuclear reactor?

Is it a conspiracy that Israel has been threatening to attack Iran's reactors for the past couple of years?

Is it a conspiracy that a couple of years ago Israel flew over Syrian airspace and bombed a target that has never been identified but some sources say was a Syrian nuclear program building/weapon?

WTF are you smoking man? Lay off the crack pipe.

And I told you to look up the fact that the Iraq War was planned in 1998 by Jews and Zionists in the US administration with dual loyalties with the aid of some Israeli minds.

Did you look it up? It is not even a secret. Everybody knows it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC#PNAC_role_in_promoting_invasion_of_Iraq

OH SHIT, look at those last names. Some of the most famously rabid Zionists out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC#Post-9.2F11_call_for_regime_change_in_Iraq

On September 20, 2001 (nine days after the September 11, 2001 attacks), the PNAC sent a
letter to President George W. Bush, advocating "a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein
from power in Iraq," or regime change:

Here is what the letter said:

Quote :

"...even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack, any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. Failure to undertake such an effort will constitute an early and perhaps decisive surrender in the war on international terrorism"

Almost all Middle Eastern actions by the US have ultimately to do with Israel's security (and also securing oil). Of course, they are sold with various friendly phrases/words such as spreading freedom and democracy, freeing the poor muslim/arab women and children from oppression, etc.


[Edited on May 15, 2010 at 5:28 PM. Reason : ]

5/15/2010 5:25:35 PM

Yeah. Like I said.

5/15/2010 6:26:32 PM

Quote :

"as a liberal and someone who is not religious, i always wonder why other liberal posters always tend to defend Muslims in these type of threads but have no problem bashing Christianity in others. hey guys, they're both fucked up. "

lol

so muslims aren’t worthy of defense? America can’t be the land of freedom and democracy and religious freedom if we don’t defend muslims. Would you rather American be tolerant of all religions… except Islam? Because that certainly fits with the constitution…

And how exactly is pointing out the fact that there is ample reason for other countries to view our wars as religiously based "defending muslims" anyway…?

5/15/2010 7:20:58 PM

Quote :

"there is ample reason for other countries to view our wars as religiously based"

Which countries view the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as "religiously based"?

5/15/2010 7:25:28 PM

Probably the Iraqis when things like this happen:

Quote :

"On Sunday, Bush warned Americans that "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile.""

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html

http://gawker.com/5258524/donald-rumsfelds-judgement+happy-scary-bibilical-defense-briefing-art
Rumsfeld putting bible passages on defense briefings

5/15/2010 7:50:21 PM

i think you're reaching son

5/15/2010 10:01:39 PM

Quote :

"I wouldn't call Golovko and 0EPII1 liberals, though. They're conspiracy-minded crackpots."

because the truth is hard for YOU to swallow doesn't mean its a conspiracy. Take your head out of the sand why don't you.

5/15/2010 10:42:19 PM

i don't understand in this country why anytime you criticize israel or question their motivations or involvement in something youre a crazy conspiracy theorist

5/15/2010 11:14:08 PM

Quote :

"Dunbar was elected to the state education board on the back of a campaign in which she argued for the teaching of creationism – euphemistically known as intelligent design – in science classes. Two years ago, she published a book, One Nation Under God, in which she argued that the United States was ultimately governed by the scriptures. "The only accurate method of ascertaining the intent of the founding fathers at the time of our government's inception comes from a biblical worldview," she wrote. "We as a nation were intended by God to be a light set on a hill to serve as a beacon of hope and Christian charity to a lost and dying world." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/16/texas-schools-rewrites-us-history

This view is likely held by a sizable amount of the religious right.

5/16/2010 12:32:29 PM

Quote :

"i don't understand in this country why anytime you criticize israel or question their motivations or involvement in something youre a crazy conspiracy theorist"

I could criticize Israel in ways that would be infinitely more more damning - and infinitely more valid - than anything those two are rambling on about. Criticizing Israel doesn't make you a crackpot. Suggesting that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were the results of a grand Zionist plot to help the United States steal some oil, on the other hand, does.

Quote :

"Probably the Iraqis"

Probably? If the Iraqi government thought the intervention in Iraq was part of an international Christian crusade, it wouldn't be a mystery.

All you're doing here is guessing at people's secret intentions. There is absolutely no substantial or significant evidence, based on the way these wars have been conducted, that would indicate a grand scheme to convert the world to Christianity, or to conquer land so that it might be claimed in the name of Christianity, or even to eradicate Islam (both of their constitutions, which we helped draft, state that they are Islamic countries).

For what it's worth, I'm just as annoyed by the Christian right as you are. I'm just not prepared to draw such a dramatic conclusion based on disparate pieces of barely circumstantial evidence.

[Edited on May 16, 2010 at 2:42 PM. Reason : ]

5/16/2010 2:26:51 PM

^ we're not fighting the Iraqi gov. why would you insinuate that? Are you even reading these posts?

5/16/2010 2:54:30 PM

Oh, so we're only limiting this to the people we're fighting? Fine. In that case, which of the insurgent or terrorist groups think we're over there fighting a Christian crusade, and what is their reasonable basis for drawing such a conclusion?

5/16/2010 3:05:01 PM

^ are you trying to be obtuse?

Iraqis in general don't like us occupying their country.

Our gov. officials from all levels have used religion as a justification for their actions, and the US is not known to be friendly to muslims.

You don't think the anti-occupation forces use religion to push peoples' opinions on the US? The gov. of Iran directly states this to the people, as i'm sure you're aware.

5/16/2010 3:08:04 PM

Quote :

"Iraqis in general don't like us occupying their country."

This is irrelevant to your suggestion that it is a religious war.

Quote :

"Our gov. officials from all levels have used religion as a justification for their actions, and the US is not known to be friendly to muslims."

This falls somewhere between gross exaggeration and flat out false.

Quote :

"You don't think the anti-occupation forces use religion to push peoples' opinions on the US? The gov. of Iran directly states this to the people, as i'm sure you're aware."

To rephrase myself:

"So, what are you suggesting, that we let our national security interests (not to mention the equally noble goal of exporting freedom and democracy) suffer because of some insane regime's propaganda?"

5/16/2010 3:13:53 PM

Quote :

"This is irrelevant to your suggestion that it is a religious war. "

I'm not, nor have i been, suggesting this is a religious war.

I'm point out that a large amount of people on their side view it as a religious war, and lots of people on our side view it as one.

5/16/2010 3:24:39 PM

It is, to a certain extent, a religious war in that a religion has declared war on the west and on the US in particular.

5/16/2010 3:33:17 PM

^ and i'm sure their leaders tell their people the same thing.

5/16/2010 3:36:41 PM