you have a kid?

anyway, you need to buy better diapers!

7/5/2010 11:11:49 PM

I dont often wander into conversations here in the SB but one big issue i have with pro-life people is that they dont seem to want to apply many other laws to protect unborn babies. Shouldn't a woman that knows that she is preggers be held accountable if she chooses to participate in some activity that endangers her unborn child? these might include drinking alcohol, smoking, riding roller coasters, heck im sure there are a ton more.

To be consistent i think pro lifers should advocate that women that experience a miscarriage due to their actions should be charged with negligent manslaughter or something similar.

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 11:15 PM. Reason : .]

7/5/2010 11:12:28 PM

Conservatives:

"I AM A SHINING BEACON OF FREEDOM AND LIBERTY! FREEDOM FOR ALL! (except women and gays)"

7/5/2010 11:13:46 PM

i don't know who you have talked to, but in my world, yes, if you do activities which are known to harm fetuses, you should be punished (mandatory motherhood classes, community service in an orphanage, etc).

7/5/2010 11:15:08 PM

Quote :

"I'm talking about philosophical approaches to the issue, I'm not talking about propaganda or tactical strategies."

methinks "aesthetics" doesn't mean what you think it means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics

Quote :

"Aesthetics (also spelled æsthetics or esthetics) is a branch of philosophy dealing with the nature of beauty, art, and taste, and with the creation and appreciation of beauty."

7/5/2010 11:26:30 PM

I'm pro-abortion

7/5/2010 11:39:30 PM

Dictionary.com:

Quote :

"the study of the mind and emotions in relation to the sense of beauty. "

That is exactly what I meant. People who are pro-choice approach the procedure performed on the fetus/baby from an aesthetic perspective.

7/5/2010 11:43:37 PM

chalk it up to the more generalized idiocy of the Right

[Edited on July 5, 2010 at 11:44 PM. Reason : I AM COME TO STOKE THE FLAMES

7/5/2010 11:44:15 PM

There's no objective difference between an infant and a fetus. Like I said... this boils down to how messy the procedure is. Out of sight, out of mind.

7/5/2010 11:55:44 PM

yeah there is

an infant has become separated from the direct nutritive environment of the uterus

and at the extremes the differences are more clear, like early in fetal development the fetus cannot even move on its own, while late in infancy a baby can crawl and gurgle

7/5/2010 11:59:25 PM

Quote :

"There's no objective difference between an infant and a fetus."

Well that's not true. Fetuses don't feel pain in the first trimester. Nor are there brain waves.

7/6/2010 12:02:33 AM

I think mandatory child support is bullshit if abortions are allowed. If women are allowed to unilaterally refuse a child by having an abortion why can't men unilaterally decide to wall away?

7/6/2010 12:03:53 AM

Quote :

" an infant has become separated from the direct nutritive environment of the uterus"

what the fuck does that have to do with its self awareness? from the infant's perspective, its still just a few hundred cells sitting in the womb.

7/6/2010 12:06:35 AM

Why is the definition of "life at conception" so sacred to some people, apart from religious reasoning? Fetuses are not aware of their existence and will not be aware of ever having existed in the first place. Why draw the line at fetuses? Why not sperm? Those squiggly motherfuckers are more alive than a goddamn zygote.

7/6/2010 12:14:25 AM

Single-celled organism? PRECIOUS.

Man who may or may not have killed someone? KILL HIM NOW.

7/6/2010 12:16:27 AM

^^ you're an idiot if you can't see why even to a non-religious person they might view the beginning of life as being "conception."

And technically the sperm ARE sacred if you are taking a literal reading of the Bible, it's just so obviously foolish to argue this point that even the supposed literal-bible people don't really argue it.

7/6/2010 12:20:05 AM

Well, I'm going to go watch some porn and kill a million potential babies. See you guys later!

7/6/2010 12:21:20 AM

Quote :

"you're an idiot if you can't see why even to a non-religious person they might view the beginning of life as being "conception.""

Good thing that's not what I said!

7/6/2010 12:24:58 AM

pro-choice != pro-abortion, lets not oversimplify things.

actually nevermind, it will always be that simple to you people.

[Edited on July 6, 2010 at 12:38 AM. Reason : /]

7/6/2010 12:37:48 AM

I'm pro-choice and pro-abortion. It's much better to abort the pregnancy early on than to have another unwanted child in the world that is going to keep the cycle of poverty (or neglect) going. There are people that think it should be legal to abort a child at 8 and a half months, and I can't agree with that. I don't know how many mothers and how many doctors out there would allow that to happen, in any case.

7/6/2010 12:50:43 AM

Quote :

"what the fuck does that have to do with its self awareness? from the infant's perspective, its still just a few hundred cells sitting in the womb."

more like a trillion, around the transition from "fetus" to "newborn"

and IIRC fetuses at that stage do have some awareness of their surroundings, although it takes almost until toddlerhood for long-term memory to start filling up (for some of us it's later...I was almost 5 ), so we don't remember what it was like

7/6/2010 12:58:11 AM

To me, abortion is very clearly murder, and I'm all for it!

Of course, I'd prefer to empower women with full access to birth control and comprehensive education about their bodies, relationships, sex, etc...

But it turns out these pesky anti-choice people are against all of that, too!

RockWomenHardPlace

7/6/2010 1:20:53 AM

Quote :

"Fetuses are not aware of their existence and will not be aware of ever having existed in the first place."

How do you define self-awareness? What about a new-born? Or a 3-month old? Are they self-aware according to how you define it? And it has to be defined scientifically, i.e., objectively and verifiably.

Also, if you kill all the children of the world who are 3 or under, they will never be aware of having existed, as they don't form any long term memories of their existence until later. So should we legalize murder until age 3?

Another objection given by pro-abortioners is that when the baby is inside, it is dependent on the mother for survival. Well, so it is after birth, until up to about age 5 or so. How many babies can survive on their own after birth? None. So should we legalize murder now until they can go out into the world and survive on their own, which would be around age 5 or so?

Quote :

"Fetuses don't feel pain in the first trimester. Nor are there brain waves."

How do you know they don't? That hasn't been answered satisfactorily until now, and probably never will be. As for brain waves, you are wrong. There are brain waves as early as 21 days. Yes, days, not weeks. NOW WHAT?! You were partially hinging on brain waves, because brain waves to you and to most people indicates a distinct alive creature. What do you about the dilemma now?



^ You are a chick with obvious "issues", so of course you are for killing life.

Quote :

"I'm pretty sure that a pretty sizable percentage of the TWW girls have either daddy issues, confidence issues or general craziness that leads to low self-esteem... at least if you go by the confessions thread."

That applies perfectly and to a large degree to you.

And I don't know who you are talking to, but I am all for education about our bodies and how to take care of it, physically, mentally, emotionally, and sexually.

7/6/2010 6:48:09 AM

Quote :

"I'm pro-choice and pro-abortion. It's much better to abort the pregnancy early on than to have another unwanted child in the world that is going to keep the cycle of poverty (or neglect) going. There are people that think it should be legal to abort a child at 8 and a half months, and I can't agree with that. I don't know how many mothers and how many doctors out there would allow that to happen, in any case."

What would the exact date be b/w being ok and not being ok?

7/6/2010 6:56:09 AM

I really doubt there are brain waves at 21 days considering the neural tube is just being formed and the brain is still a couple weeks away, but it doesn't matter regardless.

And the distinction is not just that a fetus is dependant but that it is dependant and part of the mothers body. Someone else can raise an infant, a fetus is a part of the mothers body and is dependant on her alone and that affords her the right to make decisions affecting her body.

7/6/2010 8:03:07 AM

Quote :

"I think mandatory child support is bullshit if abortions are allowed. If women are allowed to unilaterally refuse a child by having an abortion why can't men unilaterally decide to wall away?"

This.

7/6/2010 8:22:46 AM

basically, if you feel abortion should be safe and legal throughout all three trimesters, consistent with every pro-choice advocacy group's position, then you should also support infanticide.

7/6/2010 8:47:08 AM

^
basically, if you feel abortion should be dangerous and illegal throughout all three trimesters, consistent with every pro-life advocacy group's position, then you should also oppose masturbation, in vitro fertilization, and embryonic stem cell research.

(I don't necessarily believe all that, I'm just mocking your absolutist straw-man bullshit)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

7/6/2010 8:56:50 AM

Quote :

"basically, if you feel abortion should be safe and legal throughout all three trimesters, consistent with every pro-choice advocacy group's position,"

uh, actually it isn't

7/6/2010 9:04:26 AM

well, the big ones like NARAL and Planned Parenthood

Quote :

"you should also oppose in vitro fertilization, and embryonic stem cell research."

they do oppose these things. in vitro fertilization is ok as long as the embryos are never destroyed

[Edited on July 6, 2010 at 9:46 AM. Reason : ]

7/6/2010 9:45:46 AM

What would the punishment be for an illegal abortion?

7/6/2010 9:48:48 AM

Quote :

"How do you know they don't? That hasn't been answered satisfactorily until now, and probably never will be. As for brain waves, you are wrong. There are brain waves as early as 21 days."

The pain question has been answered satisfactorily. There are no brain waves at 21 days. You are a tool. Jump off a bridge.

7/6/2010 9:48:58 AM

Quote :

"What would the punishment be for an illegal abortion?"

More like:

What would the punishment be for a 13 year old girl, raped by her father, who obtained an illegal abortion?

7/6/2010 9:51:53 AM

Pro-abortion. Women should have the right to do what they want to their bodies and until that thing is viable on it's own it's still part of her body. Abortions will not cease when you make them illegal, they will simply become (more) dangerous. Just like prostitution or drugs. They will always happen. I prefer to let them happen in a clinic.

7/6/2010 9:54:14 AM

I don't think we have any laws on the books that consider the mitigating circumstances of a particular crime.... Everything is handled the same regardless of what precipitated the actions.

Clearly we would be breaking new ground

Quote :

"until that thing is viable on it's own it's still part of her body."

then you should support infanticide

[Edited on July 6, 2010 at 9:55 AM. Reason : ]

7/6/2010 9:54:18 AM

^
So you're okay with the killing of an innocent fetus if the mother is raped?

7/6/2010 9:55:31 AM

^^Your logic is baffling. Infants are obviously viable.

^Yes. Until the fetus is viable.

7/6/2010 10:01:21 AM

^
That was a question for Solinari, and I was being sarcastic

7/6/2010 10:03:21 AM

Quote :

"I don't think we have any laws on the books that consider the mitigating circumstances of a particular crime.... Everything is handled the same regardless of what precipitated the actions. Clearly we would be breaking new ground"

Uh, yeah. That's why I'm asking you.

What would you decide?

A misdemeanor? A felony?

A fine? Jail time? Death?

I mean, clearly, according to you, this is murder of a human being right? And since she planned it, this is 1st degree premeditated murder.

So, the death penalty seems like an appropriate punishment, given that you also support capital punishment.

7/6/2010 10:11:34 AM

I am mostly anti-abortion. I'm OK with it in cases where a continued pregnancy is a threat to the mother's life, and I'm OK with it very early-on...like RU-486 induced abortions within the first few weeks.

I'll respond in detail to a lot of stuff in here later, but for now:

1. Abortion is not a religious issue. It has everything to do with at what point you define human life to begin (unless you're warped like BridgetSPK and think that it's murder of a baby, and that's OK. The problem is defining that point--conception and birth are the two obvious places, but my view is that neither of those is correct (and birth is an absolutely absurd place to draw the line. "viability of the fetus" is a stupid place to draw the line, too. That a baby cannot survive on its own is not an excuse for killing it...not to mention that "viability" is a continuum, anyway...viable if you left it stranded on an island? viable with heavy medical intervention? with 2010 technology? 2020 technology? 100% of the time? 50% of the time? 1% of the time?).

2. The pro-abortion types are really making complete fools of themselves in this thread (not all, of course, but a significant portion...and I didn't really notice any idiocy from the anti-abortion crowd).

3. Women having "control over their own bodies" is the biggest crock of shit ever. The issue is when they are causing harm (death) to someone else's body. Again, it's a matter of when you draw the line about it being someone else's body...but this notion that being opposed to an abortion has anything to do with oppression of women is fundamentally fucking stupid. Just as the issue has nothing to do with religion (unless you use that for defining "human life"), it has nothing to do with women's rights.

[Edited on July 6, 2010 at 11:04 AM. Reason : ]

7/6/2010 11:00:21 AM

How would you choose to punish a woman who obtained an illegal abortion?

7/6/2010 11:18:08 AM

You're saying the same thing as I, except instead of me defining where the line is you just don't mention it. And we're the idiots.

It's not conception, and it's not birth, so where is it?

For the record, viability to me means the ability to survive and grow without *any* medical intervention. If it could make it given warmth, oxygen, and milk, then it's viable.

Note for a moment that I'm not saying that we should abort any fetus that is not viable given this definition, only that it should be an option for the mother.

It's obvious that the distinction is when the cells stop being part of the mother and start being their own. I've stated where I feel that point is, it's your turn.

7/6/2010 11:24:31 AM

You've read solinari's posts and haven't seen idiocy?

7/6/2010 11:25:55 AM

Quote :

"Women having "control over their own bodies" is the biggest crock of shit ever. The issue is when they are causing harm (death) to someone else's body. Again, it's a matter of when you draw the line about it being someone else's body...but this notion that being opposed to an abortion has anything to do with oppression of women is fundamentally fucking stupid. Just as the issue has nothing to do with religion (unless you use that for defining "human life"), it has nothing to do with women's rights."

Imagine if I was able to somehow infect you with a foreign agent. This foreign agent would grow inside your body over the course of nine months, against your will.

While it does this, you will experience the following side effects:
-exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
-altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
-nausea and vomiting
-heartburn and indigestion
-constipation
-dizziness and light-headedness
-bloating, swelling, fluid retention
-hemmorhoids
-abdominal cramps
-congested, bloody nose
-acne and mild skin disorders
-skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
-mild to severe backache and strain
-increased headaches
-difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
-increased urination and incontinence
-bleeding gums
-swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
-difficulty sitting
-shortness of breath
-higher blood pressure
-hair loss
-tendency to anemia
-infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease

and possible permanent side effects of
-permanent back injury
-diastasis recti
-eclampsia
-severe scarring
-serious infection and disease
-hemorrhage
-broken bones

And at the end of nine months this growth will expel itself from your body, an act which will cause extreme pain and possibly death.

And now imagine that the group of people who are unable to experience this type of pain are telling you that you can't do anything to stop it.

7/6/2010 11:34:15 AM

Quote :

"1. Abortion is not a religious issue. It has everything to do with at what point you define human life to begin"

Um, no.
The point at which you define human life to begin is (at least, in part,) a religious issue, to some. Not that it has to be, but it is. I think you mean to say, "Abortion shouldn't be a religious issue".

Quote :

"2. The pro-abortion types are really making complete fools of themselves in this thread"

Well, most of us choose not to participate, because so many pro-lifers are complete religious nuts -- there's no point to trying to debate them. The few of us that do comment may only do so to troll, etc. If, as you pointed out, we could [always] remove the religious aspects, we all might actually have a decent debate.

Quote :

"3. Women having "control over their own bodies" is the biggest crock of shit ever. ... it's a matter of when you draw the line about it being someone else's body....it has nothing to do with women's rights."

Well, just as you said, "it's a matter of when you draw the line about it being someone else's body". So, if we're talking about restricting abortions before wherever that line actually is, what could be the justification? At that point, as you said, it isn't someone else's body -- it's just the women's body. So, before that line it has everything to do with women's rights, because their bodies are the only thing at issue. What is your support for "RU-486 induced abortions within the first few weeks" based on, if not a women's right to do things to her body with drugs?
Again, I think you mean to say, "Abortion shouldn't be a women's rights issue." and not "Abortion isn't a women's rights issue." (not exactly semantics, but rather "is" vs. "should be")



I'm also eager for the pro-lifers to answer:
How would you choose to punish a woman who obtained an illegal abortion?

[Edited on July 6, 2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason : ]

7/6/2010 11:35:37 AM

I'm Pro Life. Probably my most conservative stance, otherwise I'm a moderate democrat.

And I'm against the death penalty also.

Quote :

"How would you choose to punish a woman who obtained an illegal abortion?"

A fine or community service

The person who performed the abortion would be facing stiffer penalties.

7/6/2010 11:47:39 AM

But isn't it conspiracy to commit premeditated murder?

7/6/2010 11:52:49 AM

there is certainly a middle ground to be had. because of many different circumstances, abortion is always going to have a place in our society. that said, whats wrong with this middle ground?

1. eliminate all federal or tax payer funding from abortions or abortion clinics.
2. limit abortions to very early in the term, say 2 months.
3. make it illegal to perform an abortion on a minor without the consent of one parent.

these compromises would take the teeth out of a lot of the people who are pro life and would satisfy the majority of moderates on both sides, IMO.

7/6/2010 11:53:24 AM

ITT people think they can change someone's opinions on abortion.

7/6/2010 11:54:09 AM

I'll admit that by our age ignorance can become firmly entrenched

7/6/2010 12:02:24 PM