Well Stein, what are your thoughts on this whole thing. As for my spiritual beliefs and history, its hard to put into words. At one point in my life I was pretty religious, devout, etc. But, there were some things in life that changed that. Now I can honestly say my beliefs swing the pendulum from atheist, to agnostic, to uncaring either way to a small belief. But as I said before, I still consider myself a Jew based on the feelings I once had, and have tried to find again. I dont really feel the need to justify myself to you any further though. Do you consider me Jewish, maybe not. Would a rabbi, maybe not. Do I care what others think of my religious beliefs, not at all.

11/5/2010 4:14:56 PM

It seems like you accept reality, but you don't want to out-and-out turn your back on your upbringing, which you may or may not have fond memories of. I felt the same way, at one point. Church was pretty much my life outside of school for many years.

11/5/2010 4:29:56 PM

yeah kind of. But it also angers me that so many Jews buy into the false notion of some made up race, because all its doing is further separating themselves and giving credence to the stupid beliefs of a bunch of racist douche bags.

The hate I have gotten in this thread is just pretty stupid though, from people who claim to be open minded and tolerant, yet trash talk those who disagree. I admit i was harsh in my speaking about Jews who believe the race notion, but not because I somehow hate Jews. Rather it was because I cant stand the hatred that the "separate race" notion brings. Are we to believe that Islam is a race too, because it started in the middle east and they share a common culture?

11/5/2010 4:39:45 PM

I honestly don't care about your religious beliefs. My point is that you can't call yourself a Jew if you a) deny there is a Jewish race and b) deny/are skeptical of the existence of God which is the foundation for the religion.

From what you've been saying, being Jewish is no different from being Catholic. It's simply a description of your religious beliefs. If you didn't believe in Jesus (or questioned Jesus' divinity), you wouldn't run around calling yourself Catholic, would you?

Quote :

"Rather it was because I cant stand the hatred that the "separate race" notion brings. "

Misplaced anger.

11/5/2010 4:44:54 PM

In many ways, "Muslim" has the same kind of ethnoreligious connotation as "Jewish."

11/5/2010 4:47:30 PM

Quote :

"If you didn't believe in Jesus (or questioned Jesus' divinity), you wouldn't run around calling yourself Catholic, would you?"

Im sure you would actually. I know plenty of Christians or Catholics that are not really religious so to speak, but they still consider themselves Christian. I think a Catholic person who does not believe in Jesus or God might still call themselves Catholic because they were raised as a Catholic, were baptized, and confirmed, even though they no longer practice it now. Perhaps it was once an important part of their life, and they still identify as one even though they are not religious. We are not going to call Catholic a race now are we?

The problem with the ethnoreligious term is where does it end? I think the lines of ethnicity, race, religion are so indistinct that its stupid to say there are real distictions anymore.

[Edited on November 5, 2010 at 5:24 PM. Reason : .]

11/5/2010 5:20:30 PM

So if jews aren't jews, what are they? White? As a white person I take offense to that. We white people have a rich heritage of oppressing other races that jews never contributed to, well outside of being one of those oppressed races.

11/5/2010 5:42:25 PM

this may shock you, but there has also been oppression based on religion not race

11/5/2010 5:45:41 PM

again, one of the great accomplishments of white people, not jews

11/5/2010 6:06:39 PM

Feeding the troll

11/5/2010 6:07:47 PM

just trying to throw in some funny

11/5/2010 6:15:59 PM

Quote :

"So if jews aren't jews, what are they? White? As a white person I take offense to that."

Learn logic, n00b...

most Jews are white
but most white people are not Jews

Quote :

"In many ways, "Muslim" has the same kind of ethnoreligious connotation as "Jewish.""

Despite Franklin Graham's comment about "the seed of Muslim [sic]" few Islamic leaders believe that someone can be one of the Muslim people merely by virtue of birth; instead they have to actually adhere to the Islamic faith and participate in the rituals of Islam, most importantly the recitation of the shahadah: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/26/franklin-graham/graham-said-seed-islam-passes-through-father-obama/

11/5/2010 8:46:14 PM

I don't deny that, but the line is blurred in common speech.

11/5/2010 9:42:53 PM

Judaism is a religion. Based on the lack of converts and the family-based nature of the faith, it may also be appropriate to consider it a race or ethnicity. Of course, race is a social construct. But as long we're socially constructing it, it still exists. Plus, there is definitely some shared genetic material among a lot of Jewish folks. And when you combine the genetic situation with the loads and loads persecution, you've definitely got yourself the makings of a socially constructed race-faith.

11/5/2010 10:10:50 PM

Quote :

"We white people have a rich heritage of oppressing other races that jews never contributed to, well outside of being one of those oppressed races."

Back up, Jews were major slave traders in medieval Europe and the Middle East, especially in the Muslim world. Jews also participated in the African slave trade, though not in disproportionate numbers. European Jews are just as white as European Christians/Atheists/whatever.

11/6/2010 1:58:15 AM

^ exactly.

and what about all the oppression they are partaking in now (for the last 60 years, actually)?

11/6/2010 4:34:40 PM

the student becomes the master!

11/6/2010 5:30:25 PM

I have always wondered why the conspiracy nuts pick the jews to say they rule everything. I guess just saying white or latino or asian people would not have been as fun to prove with elaborate diagrams, coverups and secretive stuff.

11/6/2010 10:03:05 PM

Quote :

"m sure you would actually. I know plenty of Christians or Catholics that are not really religious so to speak, but they still consider themselves Christian. I think a Catholic person who does not believe in Jesus or God might still call themselves Catholic because they were raised as a Catholic, were baptized, and confirmed, even though they no longer practice it now. Perhaps it was once an important part of their life, and they still identify as one even though they are not religious. We are not going to call Catholic a race now are we?"

I don't believe this claim. Find an example of someone who does not believe in Jesus or God and still calls themselves a Catholic. There are plenty of Christians that have become complacent with their religion and religious practices, but if you asked them they'd still say they believe (see every religious survey done in this country's history). You don't see non-believers calling themselves protestants, baptists, nor catholics. "I was raised Catholic" is what you'll get. Not "I'm a Catholic".

I was raised Catholic, btw. ;P

I still think there isn't a great consensus about a "Jewishness" separate from Judaism. It seems like people will claim it either way, depending on what benefits their argument the most at the time.

11/7/2010 8:55:09 AM

Quote :

"I don't believe this claim. Find an example of someone who does not believe in Jesus or God and still calls themselves a Catholic."

Me, but this has nothing to do with Judaism

[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 9:23 AM. Reason : .]

11/7/2010 9:22:45 AM

^^I know multiple people who don't believe but still call themselves Catholic. A couple of them are pretty adamant about it, too.

What part are the country are you from? I'm from here--NC.

11/7/2010 12:36:33 PM

Far enough back, we're all Africans.

11/7/2010 4:31:08 PM

Far enough back we were all dirt, according to all theories.

11/7/2010 5:25:32 PM

The moral of this thread is that it is debateable

11/8/2010 10:13:44 AM

That's quite odd. McDanger and Bridget, what is about your lives that is Catholic exactly? Why do you identify with other Catholics?

NC/Colorado here.

11/8/2010 10:34:58 AM

Cant the genetic footprint argument be applied to other cultures to show a common lineage?

11/10/2010 2:58:56 PM

Quote :

"NOT A RACE"

11/10/2010 5:13:05 PM

This is one of the most controversial issues in Israel right now.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=131216486

Like most Jews in the U.S., Leavitt's family belongs to the more liberal branches of Judaism, the Reform or Conservative movements.

In Israel, however, religious life is dominated by the Orthodox and increasingly the ultra-Orthodox.

Unless those seeking to join the Jewish faith undergo Orthodox conversion, they are simply not legally recognized as Jews in Israel, and that applies to their offspring as well.

"One of the things that really blows my mind is that here it is, 60 years after the Holocaust, and one of Israel's greatest problems is that people want to become Jewish," Weiman-Kelman says. "Who would have imagined that one of the fights we would be having now is that there are people who want to become Jewish and we are turning them away?"

Many rights are denied to non-Jews in Israel, such as the right to marry or be buried there.

11/10/2010 6:45:51 PM

They're the fuckin chosen people. You don't just get to walk in and get membership like it's the god damn library. You gotta be born special

11/10/2010 10:03:21 PM

Haha. Yeah. It's very important to maintain racial purity.

11/10/2010 10:18:29 PM

Quote :

"you don't just get to walk in and get membership like it's the god damn library"

lolerpocket

11/11/2010 2:47:22 PM

Quote :

"Many rights are denied to non-Jews in Israel, such as the right to marry or be buried there."

Seriously, they don't even let non-Jews marry there?
What the fuck?

11/11/2010 2:50:38 PM

Theocracies are silly, lol.

11/11/2010 7:15:40 PM

I don't know if they are a theocracy, maybe more of racetatorship. I don't think Israel thinks the jewish god is who rules israel, just that the ashkenazis rule israel.

11/11/2010 7:28:37 PM

oddly, even though Orthodox Jews are treated better than others, Israel actually has no official religion

11/11/2010 10:47:51 PM

The fact that non-jews cant marry there is racist.

The only reason Jews get away with stuff like this is because they are white.

Hence, it is very debatable/questionable that they are an actual race. They are white.

11/11/2010 11:29:01 PM

Quote :

"disco_stu: That's quite odd. McDanger and Bridget, what is about your lives that is Catholic exactly? Why do you identify with other Catholics? NC/Colorado here."

I was raised faithless, not Catholic. I was speaking about people I know.

The reason why I asked where you're from is because there is some anti-Catholic sentiment where I'm from (NC), and I suspect that influences people to continue to identify as Catholic here even if they no longer believe. Plus, Catholicism sometimes includes lots of rituals...so it might make sense to ID yourself as Catholic (since you went through the rituals and whatnot) even if you don't believe anymore.

Growing up in a faith is a defining experience for many people.

But I dunno...I never went through it.

11/11/2010 11:36:21 PM

Quote :

"The fact that non-jews cant marry there is racist."

It's to prevent miscegenation. You can't convert there either, and you certainly can't become an Israeli citizen. They actually use the Nuremberg laws to determine if you're jewish and eligible for full rights.

Quote :

"They are white."

Why? Because of their skin color?
Is this guy white?

Quote :

"Plus, Catholicism sometimes includes lots of rituals...so it might make sense to ID yourself as Catholic (since you went through the rituals and whatnot) even if you don't believe anymore."

Since apparently you can just consider yourself whatever you want without having to actually be that thing, I am an astronaut rock star billionaire, not a practicing one, but I was raised one.

11/12/2010 12:06:35 AM

Quote :

"Why? Because of their skin color?"

more because of their ancestral origin

the ancestors of the vast majority of Jews lived in the Middle East for millennia (and according to sources ranging from the US Census Bureau to the racialists of the early 20th Century, people of Middle Eastern origin are grouped along with European origin as "Caucasian"), even before the founding of Judaism, until the Roman Empire barged in and started the Diaspora

11/12/2010 12:20:48 AM

^^ don't know about you guys but that dude looks mixed to me.

Anyways, my point is that people such as paltrow, sandler, etc.. are going to be perceived as white because they have all of the features of being white, so they will not face the racial slurs and discrimination as the blacks and hispanics. But they are not white because they share a genetic footprint?

It just sounds ridiculous to me and I am not buying it. Don't the amish, celtics and slovaks also share a genetic footprint?

I cautiously bring this up because I am not trying to Jew hate. If they maintain their culture by marrying within then fine, I am all for it. Other cultures do the same thing and it works for the most part.

[Edited on November 12, 2010 at 12:39 PM. Reason : 12]

11/12/2010 12:21:47 PM

Quote :

"Anyways, my point is that people such as paltrow, sandler, etc.. are going to be perceived as white because they have all of the features of being white, so they will not face the racial slurs and discrimination as the blacks and hispanics. But they are not white because they share a genetic footprint?"

Ask German Jews in the 1940s how well "having all the features of being white" did against racial slurs and discrimination.

Quote :

"Seriously, they don't even let non-Jews marry there? What the fuck?"

According to Wikipedia, while Israel recognizes civil marriages, they only actually perform religious ones. It looks like two people of the same religion can be married, but two people of two different religions can't marry, which makes sense considering they're only looking at marriage from the religious aspect.

11/12/2010 1:30:56 PM

Quote :

"That's quite odd. McDanger and Bridget, what is about your lives that is Catholic exactly? Why do you identify with other Catholics? NC/Colorado here."

I was raised in the Church. The Church isn't just a religious organization; it's a social group with shared cultural assumptions/backgrounds/norms. I'm not about to spin on my heel and disown a group of people that I can speak directly to from personal experience.

11/12/2010 1:37:03 PM

Quote :

"Ask German Jews in the 1940s how well "having all the features of being white" did against racial slurs and discrimination."

If I recall correctly, they were discriminated against because of their religion, not their appearance.

[Edited on November 12, 2010 at 2:14 PM. Reason : cp]

11/12/2010 2:13:56 PM

[Edited on November 12, 2010 at 3:06 PM. Reason : ^,V This isn't meant for you]

11/12/2010 2:44:07 PM

I have a grasp of the history, and I know that the Nazi's referred to it as a race. But it all started with using the jews as a scapegoat since they had a reputation of marrying within and doing business within their culture. That made them in an easy target for Hitler.

The hatred in germany did not begin with their physical appearance. And by my understanding, it does not get filed under the category of racial discrimination.


[Edited on November 12, 2010 at 3:03 PM. Reason : cp]

11/12/2010 2:56:36 PM

Apparently, I can call myself a Christian. After all, I was raised that way, and church did significantly impact my childhood and teenage years.

11/12/2010 3:10:51 PM

^ Im in the same boat as you and red baron when it comes to religion.

11/12/2010 3:35:37 PM

Quote :

"It just sounds ridiculous to me and I am not buying it. Don't the amish, celtics and slovaks also share a genetic footprint?"

Define genetic footprint? Evolutionary biologists have to my knowledge conceded that there aren't viable genetic demarcations between ethnic groups on our planet. We are too alike one another to scientifically call us different. Black person A can often have greater genetic differences to black person B than they have to white person C.

I know it's weird because we grew up learning about races, it surrounds us on every government form and college application and everything else, but they don't genetically exist. Granted, you'll find some biologists that argue this point, but I'm pretty sure the consensus is that races are artificial.

So, no biological definition for race? What does that leave us with? How do you tell if someone is an ethnic Jew but not a practitioner of Judaism? Beats the fuck out of me. It sounds like if they feel like calling themselves Jewish, then they're Jewish. Maybe they have some rules, but since there's no decent biological basis for it, it's as arbitrary as the Jewish religion.

Quote :

"Since apparently you can just consider yourself whatever you want without having to actually be that thing, I am an astronaut rock star billionaire, not a practicing one, but I was raised one."

11/12/2010 5:01:10 PM

Quote :

"don't know about you guys but that dude looks mixed to me."

He's an albino negro, retard.

Quote :

"Anyways, my point is that people such as paltrow, sandler, etc.. are going to be perceived as white because they have all of the features of being white"

Paltrow is clearly very mixed, Stiller however has all the features of a Jew. He has the hair, the face, the nose, clearly jewish. You simply haven't been around enough jews to be able to tell them from whites or western asians.

Quote :

"but two people of two different religions can't marry, which makes sense considering they're only looking at marriage from the religious aspect"

It also makes sense coming from the miscegenation aspect.

Quote :

"Apparently, I can call myself a Christian. After all, I was raised that way, and church did significantly impact my childhood and teenage years."

I can call myself a kid as well then because I was one when I was younger and it had a profound impact on my life.

Quote :

"It sounds like if they feel like calling themselves Jewish, then they're Jewish."

In israel they use the Nuremberg laws to determine if you are a jew and eligible for all of the benefits thereof.

11/12/2010 6:18:00 PM

And since we've determined that it's arbitrary, how does whatever they do in Israel have more credence than any other criteria? All it is is a club. I guess if you want to get into the Israeli definition of Jew club you have to follow their bylaws.

11/12/2010 7:53:46 PM