http://web.archive.org/web/20041112170438/www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/marriage_family/bc.html

This web article has some examples of scripture and where the Catholic church pulls their argument from.

I will just put two main points here.

Quote :

"The Bible nowhere forbids birth control, either explicitly or implicitly, and we should not add universal rules that are not in Scripture (cf. Psalm 119:1, 9 on the sufficiency of Scripture). What is important is our attitude in using it. Any attitude which fails to see that children are a good gift from the Lord is wrong: "Behold, children are a gift of the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, so are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them" (Psalm 127:3-4)."

Quote :

"It is very important to delight in the reality that "children are a gift of the Lord." But some people go further and argue from this that since children are gifts from God, it is wrong to take steps to regulate the timing and number of children one has. In response, it can be pointed out that the Scriptures also say that a wife is a gift from the Lord (Proverbs 18:22), but that doesn't mean that it is wrong to stay single (1 Corinthians 7:8). "

I guess the LDS would disagree with the second opinion but, the first point still stands. It is wrong to impose rules that are not mentioned within scripture. And not many "rules" are mentioned within scripture. There are many guidelines within the new testament but few rules. Law was enacted mainly within the old testament and was enacted to guide the tribe of Israel to the living God. However, in the new testament the rules are still expected to be followed, but it does not establish a ruling body to judge others. McDanger is right in the fact that when people conjure these rules and create ritual surrounding them, they create more problems then good. The ruling body and judge over the saints is God, not man, the Catholic church would do well to remember that.

Quote :

"You cant blame the church for not protecting people, if you aren't listening to their teachings anyway."

Also you can blame the church if they are construing doctrine and imposing Law.

11/30/2010 3:12:48 PM

Quote :

"I guess the LDS would disagree with the second opinion but, the first point still stands. It is wrong to impose rules that are not mentioned within scripture. And not many "rules" are mentioned within scripture. There are many guidelines within the new testament but few rules. Law was enacted mainly within the old testament and was enacted to guide the tribe of Israel to the living God. However, in the new testament the rules are still expected to be followed, but it does not establish a ruling body to judge others."

Man seeing this makes my heart happy, thank you.

Here's to hope we'll all get along one day

11/30/2010 3:30:44 PM

Quote :

"The problem is when the Church ties its charity to missionary work."

Man I hate it when you see that crap.

There's nothing wrong with setting up a mission while doing something charitable, but don't tie one to the other. My dad saw this a lot in Africa. "Sure, we'll feed you, just as soon as you sit through this movie about Jesus." He credits it with causing him to emphatically reject religion.

11/30/2010 3:42:20 PM

^^The entire point of the catholic church, and the papacy is that we need additional guidance that is NOT provided in the bible.

If your catholic, you believe that, if you don't fine, but there isn't a point arguing it. No catholic is going to tell you that all catholics follow a strict interpretation of a particular version of the bible bible.

McDanger the articles you link to keep referring to some ban on condoms, its as though they are trying to portray the Swiss guards at the borders of these countries confiscating all shipments of condoms. They are banning their use among believers and followers of catholicism, who wont be having pre martial sex anyway (which is also forbidden), or sex with multiple partners.

Quote :

"Pope Benedict has always made it clear he intends to uphold the traditional Catholic teaching on artificial contraception -- a "clear moral prohibition""

Quote :

"The Roman Catholic church encourages sexual abstinence and fidelity to prevent the disease from spreading"

The church is not going to say that condoms are okay, because frankly there isn't a point in them if your a good catholic.

Condoms also are a form of contraceptive, which the church views as VERY VERY VERY BAD.

You see people dieing of AIDS, the church sees many more millions of unborn, who have had their chance at life stolen from them.

Sure you could be raped, but I don't think the churches teachings on contraception are going to have much influence on your rapist.

They don't want condoms, they don't want contraceptives, they view them as a greater evil than aids. They feel that there are other solutions to the aids problem that do not share the evils of contraception.

The church will not falter on its stance on contraception, don't expect it to. Don't look for some quote in scripture that you can highlight with a magic marker, because the catholic church and its followers don't need one. They have some thousand years of tradition.

Now you make an aids killing jelly/condom, that won't have a contraceptive effect and they might hawk it, but other than that the stance isn't going to change.

The thing you don't understand is that people who honestly view contraceptives as wrong, is that your promoting contraceptives, would be just as evil as testing then euthanize everyone with the aids virus as a means of control.



[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 3:56 PM. Reason : Who can blame people for wanting to help their cohorts first?]

11/30/2010 3:54:24 PM

Quote :

" You see people dieing of AIDS, the church sees many more millions of unborn, who have had their chance at life stolen from them. "

... In Africa, WITH AIDS.

They're having their chance at a short, brutal life of poverty, illness, disease, and probably murder ROBBED FROM THEM. WHAT!?

There is no "them". Your word does not refer to anything. Presupposing it does basically assumes your conclusion, that lives are ended when sex doesn't result in conception. Of course this view makes no sense, because countless thousands would die even during sex that results in a baby.

Quote :

" The thing you don't understand is that people who honestly view contraceptives as wrong, is that your promoting contraceptives, would be just as evil as testing then euthanize everyone with the aids virus as a means of control. "

Because they believe it so does not make it so, I'm sorry. Moral believes that don't attach to causally relevant factors should not determine policy outside of homes/churches/closets.

11/30/2010 4:12:06 PM

^

Quote :

"They're having their chance at a short, brutal life of poverty, illness, disease, and probably murder ROBBED FROM THEM. WHAT!?"

I'm glad your able to make that determination, I guess the church feels that even if that is their fate they be given that opportunity, to try to escape it.

at most 3% of the African population has aids, I would assume that contraceptives would result in similar numbers of unborn. Your also making the assumption that aids=death without any hope, which is changing in these times.

If your going to attach the church on their policy, you have to understand its belief based, which you know is kinda how the religion thing works.

They aren't going to allow contraceptives, its just how it is, You may not see a problem with it but they do.

You guys can disagree, but if you want to understand the churches teachings and try to attack them at least do enough looking to understand the motives behind them.



[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM. Reason : If they want contraceptives and Condom teachings they should look to their leaders, not the church.]

11/30/2010 4:24:06 PM

Quote :

"so all babies are bad? Or rather you have a problem with Catholics having babies?"

No, perpetuation of the species is not a bad thing. I was just pointing out that if so many people continue to have large families, the current overpopulation problem will only become much worse.

The world can only sustain so many people. Even if you don't believe that we are close to carrying capacity now, billions of people having a lot of babies will quickly get us there. It is naive to believe that we can sustain indefinitely couples who reproduce at such a high volume. It is frustrating to the rest of us that they are doing so because a man in a funny hat says they can't use contraception.

11/30/2010 4:29:01 PM

I'm not the one using that scripture verse. I'm just saying it is the basis for the Catholic church's justification. But apparently you have chosen who you shall follow AntecK7. You shall follow man.

Here is an explanation of where the glory of the Catholic church lies within Rev 17:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toBOML5W4uQ&feature=related Part 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofpa6npXQoY&feature=related Part 2

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 4:34 PM. Reason : ]

11/30/2010 4:34:28 PM

^^ill acknowledge that there are limited amounts of resources available on earth.

However, history has shown that large populations are more resilient to epidemics, war and disease (of which they may also be a cause).

Also your failing to acknowledge the benefits of population pressure (anyone ever heard of america).

Pressure forces developments in technology as well as exploration. I personally do not hope to find that mankind's existence starts and ends on the planet earth.



[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 4:36 PM. Reason : ^I'm glad the youtube preacher has him figured out]

11/30/2010 4:34:40 PM

Then bear it. Put your faith in man and I shall put mine in the Lord my God. At least I establish my truth based upon the scripture and not upon the interpretation and "progressive"ness of the Catholic church.

Also it is not the preacher that has figured out the Catholic church but the living God. For prophecy time and again points to the abomination and apostasy of the Catholic church.

At least when the atheists speak against God and Christ they know their arguments and from whence they stem. But you speak against the Word of God as one not even knowing of the meaning of salvation.

You have so bound yourself to a powerful institution upon Earth that you fail to see the glory of the Kingdom of Heaven. Where the body of the saints consists of those who have achieved salvation throughout every denomination (Catholics as well), and those who have never spent a day in chapel but understand the salvation of the Lord Jesus Christ.



And then you speak of technology and human advancement as though the issue here is whether the Catholic church has created a better or worse world from their imposition of the rule.

This is not the issue, the issue is who gives them the right to impose such rules upon man? From where do they gain this authority. I have already stated it is not from the Word of God. So apparently these self willed leaders have made this rule up with no authority but merely on a whim or to maintain appearances. And even if they did erect the rule to attempt to "help" good Catholics where does the basis for this rule come about?

Maybe I should submit some rules to them based on scriptural twisting that they can enforce.

How about "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die."
-Proverbs 23:13

Mandatory beating your child with a rod whenever he disobeys you. That seems like a legitimate assumption from that part of scripture. And since I know how concerned the Catholic church is with following scripture and conjuring rules to live by from it, maybe I should just go ahead and suggest that one.


[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 4:58 PM. Reason : /rant]

11/30/2010 4:51:06 PM

^and you are the one to judge my understanding?
^are you the one sole interpretor of gods will?

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 4:55 PM. Reason : dd]

11/30/2010 4:54:06 PM

Quote :

"^and you are the one to judge my understanding? ^are you the one sole interpretor of gods will?"

I will not withhold my judgment and reasoning from those who say they are saints. But I respect your acknowledgment of the fact that I am not the judge. But I do not see from whence your anger stems. Especially when Catholics believe that the Pope and priests judge their understanding. And consider that I attempt not to judge you, but more to help you see where their is error, because I don't really care if the Catholic church loses a member or not, what I want is for you to be my brother in Christ and not trust in man or false prophets for salvation. I know that sometimes I may seem heavy handed and take on a holier than thou attitude, but I really am just trying to tell people that their is a difference between the true gospel of Jesus Christ and what the Catholics say. Salvation is a personal affair. One cannot be saved by man or any institution that man has brought up. It has never been that way, even since the time of Jacob. I have personal reasons that I bear the institution of the Catholic church some spite. But if all of them including the Pope and everyone it way seem I dislike woke up tomorrow and realized the error and unscriptural nature of their teachings then I would be truly overjoyed. Not to mention that would be a huge boost for the collection of the saints.


Also:
No the Word of God, is God's will. Also it's God not god. If you worship god, you could be worshiping Baal, Chemosh, Astoreth on any other pagan deity. I'm sorry to be nitpicky but is an important distinction.


[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 5:11 PM. Reason : Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth. Ps 31:5]

11/30/2010 5:02:41 PM

AntecK7: http://www.youreyour.com/

11/30/2010 10:34:35 PM

There are such a variety of religions both across time and across the world that getting overly bogged down in the specific rules and regulations they prescribe to the point of controlling our lives in a way that results in harm being caused and lives being lost seems to be taking it too far.

That said, freedom of thought and expression, whether it be in the form of speech, religion, or what have you is very important. And I support that freedom, even when it means the freedom to do something stupid. I'm just sad to see when it goes for far as affecting public policy (like with the NC GOP unanimously opposing comprehensive sex ed, even when the parents can opt their kids out).

Despite the concerns I've expressed, I am very pleased to see the Catholic Church kind of changing their policy, even if they back-walked it some. A lot of people have now heard the message that condoms are sometimes okay, and it'll be hard to take that back.

[Edited on December 1, 2010 at 1:50 AM. Reason : .]

12/1/2010 1:25:40 AM

^It's even more troubling when those who are part of the saints (or say they are) attempt to mandate or influence policy for people who are not saints. This does happen quite often and though it can sometimes help people abstain from iniquity which may be people closer to God, it also polarizes many people against the holy church.

A positive example would be stealing and killing being illegal, stemming from the Ex 20.

But there are a multitude of negative examples where Christian organizations attempt to strong arm certain public policies over meaningless things, such as people getting aggravated about taking the "under God" out of the pledge of allegiance. What exactly does saying "under God" accomplish? And creating a scene about this just brings negative connotation upon ALL of Christianity.

Not to mention if we look at the Old Testament as an example, what happened when the people attempted to enforce the rules of God upon the congregation of Israel. They constantly strayed to idol gods and sacrifices in high places. Over time they were unable to enforce the rules of God upon the tribe of Israel because they strayed so far. Now if God's inheritance could not keep all the rules of God in the time of the Old Testament the how possibly could this generation keep those same rules now. Enforcing God's rules also misses many ideas behind the New Covenant which is the redemption through Christ.

12/1/2010 11:50:35 AM

Is pulling out also against Catholic ideology? Or is the man required by his religion to fire in the hole.

12/1/2010 12:49:53 PM

You guys still arguing about this? Catholicism is dead.

12/1/2010 3:11:02 PM

Figured this was along the same lines of theology vs science/health


"Life-Saving Hospital May No Longer Consider Itself Catholic"
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2010/12/21/lifesaving-hospital-longer-consider-itself-catholic

Quote :

"Bishop Thomas Olmstead of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix has formally stripped St. Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix, Arizona of its status as an official Catholic hospital after Lloyd H. Dean, President of Catholic Healthcare West, the entity that runs St. Joseph's Hospital, refused to submit to Olmstead's demands that the hospital never again perform a life saving procedure on a woman--if said procedure is an abortion."

Quote :

""In a statement released today, Bishop Olmstead explained his reasoning, -- "In the decision to abort, the equal dignity of mother and her baby were not both upheld," Olmsted said at a news conference announcing the decision. "The mother had a disease that needed to be treated. But instead of treating the disease, St. Joseph's medical staff and ethics committee decided that the healthy, 11-week-old baby should be directly killed." -- The hospital did, in fact, treat the mother's "disease" because if they hadn't not only would she have died but the fetus would have as well."

Quote :

"According to a statement from Linda Hunt, president of St. Joseph's, the hospital does all they can to prioritize the lives of both the fetus and the mother but, "Morally, ethically, and legally we simply cannot stand by and let someone die whose life we might be able to save.""

You can't be a Catholic if you'll perform an abortion to save a life, even though its not like she'll be giving birth if she's dead.

12/22/2010 12:35:27 PM

4/7/2011 12:56:23 PM

I can't believe that woman's in a position of authority teaching people such utter horseshit

Borderline child abuse, get somebody educated in front of those people to teach them the fucking truth

4/7/2011 1:14:38 PM

The Catholics don't even teach people the truth from the Bible. Why should they teach the truth about anything else?

[Edited on April 7, 2011 at 6:44 PM. Reason : ]

4/7/2011 6:44:20 PM

What good that is accomplished by the Catholic church could be done so without the faith based beliefs. In fact it's pretty obvious that the belief in supernatural/paranormal events 2000 years ago actually hinders the effectiveness of charity done by the Catholic church, as discussed in this thread.

4/9/2011 1:40:02 PM

Here's my question, if Africans don't care about what the pope says about sex outside of marriage, why would they care what the pope says about condoms?

4/9/2011 2:33:34 PM

First off, some of them do care about what he says about sex outside of marriage. The whole no condoms debacle isn't just about HIV/AIDS or whatever. It affects married, faithful women who are tired of having friggin' babies. Unfortunately, it looks like the Pope's revised stance still demands that women keep churning them out for God.

And the issue isn't so much that the Pope was saying that condoms were sinful, and people were obeying his direct message by not using them. But his words did help to dictate the whole tone for condoms and sexual health in general because so much of the outreach in Africa is church-based. And it was really horrible if you think about. I mean, first world countries have PSAs reminding sixteen year-olds to wrap it up on prom night...but we hesitated to give condoms to teenage sex workers in Africa? People who are reduced to prostitution, and we're like, "Whoa, we don't wanna encourage this immorality by giving them condoms...can't have God's children protecting themselves..."

Regardless, this guy's like a decade late. I suspect Catholic workers in Africa have been ignoring the Church's stance on condoms for a while now, but now they can do it with a bit more zeal. Getting people to use condoms can be hard.

[Edited on April 9, 2011 at 8:38 PM. Reason : ]

4/9/2011 8:33:33 PM