$40k is not an engineering job. Even the most mundane job relevant to your degree is going to be at least $50k. You can make $40k out of college doing data entry.

Salary isn't everything though. I'd rather take a $45k job w/ very good job-training and relevant career work than a $55k job that doesn't add anything worthwhile to my resume.

12/17/2010 10:03:05 AM

Quote :

"Oh. I guess it makes sense. I doubt the guy I worked for had a say in the initial offer too. Did the guy do what jethromoore did and say something like "I was hoping for somewhere around $xxk to $yyk," or was he a little bit more direct and said, "I was hoping for $xxk, is there anything that you can do about that?" I'm really kind of unsure as to how to really say that I was hoping for somewhere around 50 or 55k, based on my research. I plan on calling the guy up on Tuesday to ask a few questions that I have and to discuss the salary. From what my research has shown 40K is in the area of a technician, and I will be doing more than a technician."

What are you waiting so long for? Did they give you a time table? I got my offer on a Wednesday and countered by Friday afternoon or so.

And yes, $40k is technician or lab tech (chemistry) degree work. You need to aim for about $50k. You'll have to come at them with specific numbers towards your degree and class.

Either way you say it, it will get the point across. I asked "The average CHE in 2009 got X, is there any way we can move towards that?" Your degree has a market value, so make sure they know it.

12/17/2010 10:26:38 AM

I need to give a response by the 27th. I requested info on the benefits package, as that wasn't sent to me. I probably won't get that until Monday, as the HR person is out. Additionally I had my final exam yesterday and I have graduation today, and I'm moving out today and tomorrow. I was offered the job on Tuesday. My parents are coming up today (for the ceremony). I want to hear what my father has to say, as he's good with this (we talked about it a little). If they can get up here before 4 and I can talk to him about it, I may call and counter today.

12/17/2010 2:21:21 PM

Gotcha. Well if the HR person is out then likely a counter offer won't be addressed until next week as well, since they likely will have to at least rewrite an offer letter.

Now that I think about it, my offer wanted a response and me working as soon as possible. If they gave you a deadline of the 27th then don't rush it and make the right decision...just at the same time, give them plenty of time to be able to talk it over.

12/17/2010 2:31:10 PM

Yeah, they told me they want me to start the 3rd of Jan. So I'm not going to drag my feet. I came up with the 27th as the absolute latest (for me), and I told that to them, and the guy said it would be fine and that they could delay my start day by a few days if needed. So they're willing to work with me, and the holiday seasons just suck for trying to get anything done. I'm going to call him this Tuesday to discuss it. By then, I should have all the benefit package details and what not.

12/17/2010 2:43:40 PM

does the job include bonuses or other incentives? how much room for growth is there in the company? Sometimes you're better off taking a lower starting salary at a company with large growth potential.

I'm guessing that $40,000 a year is approximately $40,000 more each year than you're currently making. Take the job, and ask them for a raise after 6 months. If the job sucks, then go find another one.

12/17/2010 3:03:34 PM

Quote :

"I'm guessing that $40,000 a year is approximately $40,000 more each year than you're currently making. Take the job, and ask them for a raise after 6 months. If the job sucks, then go find another one."

That's pretty terrible advice imo. We've always been told its best to start as high as possible with your starting salary. If you're going to get a promotion/raise, you will get it based on your performance/ass kissing. Better to start off at 50k and get raises to higher levels than start with 40k and work towards a raise to 50k after a year or two.

12/17/2010 3:41:15 PM

if he doesn't have any other job offers in front of him, then that advice is 10 times better than any advice you've given. It's not like he can turn this down and go find another job in 2 weeks. Straight out of college, money is money.

The advice you're giving was great 5 years ago. Nowadays it's downright stupid to tell someone to hold out for a 25-38% increase in starting salary. Besides, you don't even know what the benefits package is or if it includes bonuses or incentive payments. That $40,000 could easily be $50,000 a year if the benefits package includes incentive payment.

If a company offered me $40,000 and I countered for $55,000 and was accepted, then I would refuse a job with them. A company that does that is full of sheisty management that doesn't value their employees and only sees them as a budget sheet.

12/17/2010 3:52:49 PM

The bonus is based on performance. It's only like a 0-5% bonus, which amounts to 42,000 if I were to get the full amount. Medical coverage, it is a benefit, but I don't know how much it would cost me. I'm waiting to get that info from them.

12/17/2010 4:42:42 PM

Quote :

"If a company offered me $40,000 and I countered for $55,000 and was accepted, then I would refuse a job with them. A company that does that is full of sheisty management that doesn't value their employees and only sees them as a budget sheet."

Without even addressing the other points in your post - So instead of trying to counter offer, you are going to blindly accept this company as your new overlord? By asking for a counter you learn a lot more about the company than if you don't. Say you take the 40k in your example, and it is a shady company. Good job, you got exactly the type of company you specifically say you don't want.

Still no reason not to counter offer.

12/17/2010 4:48:06 PM

Lemme know if you take da offer. I'll be moving to Greensboro in early January for a jobz. We can become besties.

12/17/2010 5:26:30 PM

Quote :

"40k seems low for any position required a B.S. in engineering but i guess it's all the economy's fault"

seriously

after 7 months of looking for a job in 2008, I was thrilled to start at 40k with my engineering degree

you guys can shit on it all you want, but I desperately needed a job by then

so if you can get them to raise the offer, great

but don't look a gift horse in the mouth, either

Quote :

"if he doesn't have any other job offers in front of him, then that advice is 10 times better than any advice you've given. It's not like he can turn this down and go find another job in 2 weeks. Straight out of college, money is money."

This.

[Edited on December 17, 2010 at 7:33 PM. Reason : .]

12/17/2010 7:32:06 PM

I'm not saying he needs to get a higher offer or walk, that's stupid and would get an offer retra@ted. Its just selling himself and his credentials short by about 10k with no fight because its the first offer he has gotten period is stupid. It doesn't hurt to ask.

Hell, I was prepared to takr my 50k offer...wouldn't be that happy, and likely would have kept looking. Maybe the company will take that into mind and offer him more because they want him to stick around.

In addition, the company needs to be aware they can't get good talent with a shit offer. 40k fulltime salary and you're looking at bottom of the barrel engineers...which isn't pretty.

12/18/2010 12:55:40 AM

you'll learn soon enough that you gotta fight for every dime you can get.

12/18/2010 3:29:07 AM

Quote :

"40k fulltime salary and you're looking at bottom of the barrel engineers...which isn't pretty"

Thanks. So sorry we can't all be good engineers based on what we're paid. I'm sure paying more for the same degree has nothing to do with how much the company earns, the economic climate or anything else.

12/18/2010 12:19:56 PM

You think maybe it's because you are a woman?

12/18/2010 1:29:47 PM

No, it's not. Technically I started out as an intern because they were short on funds.

My company adjusted my salary by a large amount in 2009 when they finally did have more money. I just wanted to add to this thread that it's ridiculous to hold out for your perfect salary on your first job, especially in this economic climate.

It doesn't hurt to ask, but don't be pissed if they can't meet your demands.

[Edited on December 18, 2010 at 3:05 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2010 2:59:50 PM

FWIW

I'm from a around there, i can say there's not much to do in the area. you got Belews Creek if you have a boat, and 311 racetrack the Daytona of Dirt. for fun people to go to greensboro. I know a few people that moved to Greensboro and drive to the Madison-Moydan to work.

Also, when i was younger Kobe Copper was the 2nd best place to work next to the Miller Plant. (well after textiles went to shit).

No clue how it is now.

12/18/2010 3:14:25 PM

Quote :

"I'm looking at the average and median income for entry level engineering positions, and I'm seeing that it's around $55,000/yr. I'm getting the feeling that +/- $5,000/yr is a fair offer."

is the average nationwide? statewide? companywide? countywide? those things are important. My company gave me what i considered a low offer last year when the nationwide average was 59k for ME according to CNN.. but when I looked at glassdoor.com the average for the area where the job was located was what they had offered me...

[Edited on December 18, 2010 at 3:34 PM. Reason : but 40k does sound low even for that area...]

12/18/2010 3:27:52 PM

I spent months looking for a software job in RTP this year and I was repeatedly told (by hiring managers and staffing agencies) that I should be happy if I got offered $30-40k.

So maybe $40k near Greensboro isn't that bad for ME.

12/18/2010 4:01:01 PM

All the salaries glassdoor.com has for ME around greensboro are senior level volvo salaries no entry level..

12/18/2010 5:10:13 PM

50-55K was what I saw entry level for the Greensboro area. I can't recall what the site was. But I am willing to accept that those salaries are inflated and they encompass a large scale of companies and positions. I will certainly take under 50K though.

12/18/2010 7:45:35 PM

Quote :

"The bonus is based on performance. It's only like a 0-5% bonus, which amounts to 42,000 if I were to get the full amount. Medical coverage, it is a benefit, but I don't know how much it would cost me. I'm waiting to get that info from them. "

that does make it less attractive. My initial offer after graduation was with the company I interned with for 2.5 years. They offered me $40,000/yr along with incentive plans and stock options. The incentive bonuses were so lucrative that I made around $56,000 my first year without considering the company stock. I caught a lot of shit from engineers I graduated with for taking such a low offer straight out of college, but I ran circles around them after bonuses and pay raises.

is this company you interviewed with a consulting / design firm or do they manufacturer products? You'll be a lot more likely to get promoted quickly with a consulting / design firm than with a manufacturing company due to their profit structure.

12/18/2010 7:56:19 PM

It's a manufacturing facility. They also have an IRS program too, but I forget the exact details of it. I think they match 30% of my contribution (but at 40K, there won't be much to contribute).

12/18/2010 8:15:55 PM

Quote :

"That's pretty terrible advice imo. We've always been told its best to start as high as possible with your starting salary. If you're going to get a promotion/raise, you will get it based on your performance/ass kissing. Better to start off at 50k and get raises to higher levels than start with 40k and work towards a raise to 50k after a year or two"

This depends entirely on the company. Most large companies scale positions to salary, so your starting salary is only going to have a short term impact on the level/pay ratio. Whoever told you that doesn't know what they're talking about.

Quote :

"If a company offered me $40,000 and I countered for $55,000 and was accepted, then I would refuse a job with them. A company that does that is full of sheisty management that doesn't value their employees and only sees them as a budget sheet."

Bullshit. A company pays an employee based on the combination of what the employee is worth to the company and what the employee considers adequate compensation. This isn't any sort of dishonest practice or shiestyness, it's called a free market economy.

12/19/2010 1:56:11 AM

is easier for HR to give u signing bonuses and upfront transition money than more salary. if it were me i'd negotiate for continuing education contract from them, if they say "we don't do that, we've never heard of that" then that company is not sufficiently flexible. also, there is no recession for engineering, is only for useless ppl.

12/19/2010 6:21:22 AM

Quote :

"Bullshit. A company pays an employee based on the combination of what the employee is worth to the company and what the employee considers adequate compensation. This isn't any sort of dishonest practice or shiestyness, it's called a free market economy. "

If a company decides that you're worth $40,000 and then agrees that you're worth $55,000 after a little bit of arguing, then they're not making decisions based off of what they consider adequate compensation for what the employee is worth. They're making their decision based on what they think they can get away with. A company that's willing to shortchange you on salary is willing to shortchange you everywhere else they can.

12/19/2010 1:06:40 PM

^ yea I sort of agree with that, except the refusing just because that.. just means you will have to argue a lot for everything you want and you would be able to get them to roll over easy

12/19/2010 2:04:40 PM

They aren't shortchanging you, they are evaluating what you think you're worth. If you think you're worth less than they think you're worth, then they have no reason to pay you any more than that.

It still doesn't mean a company is in any way unscrupulous.

and ^^ is correct, there's actually almost no unemployment in fields requiring higher education. Even less in technical fields like engineering and medicine. The problem is that people refuse to, or can't, move to take the jobs that are out there.

12/19/2010 2:07:18 PM

if the company thinks you're worth $55,000 then why would they offer you $40,000? It would be one thing if we were only talking about a 4-5k difference here, but we're not. Trying to shortchange a salary by over 25% is nothing more than being sheisty.

From personal experience, the people who are the most vocal about what they think they're worth are the most worthless and overpaid employees you'll have.

12/19/2010 2:17:17 PM

This is no different from haggling over the price of a car. A product or resources worth is dependent on both what the buyer will pay and what the seller will sell for.

And being vocal about what you think you're worth is not what we are talking about. That is bragging and boasting. The only people who need to know what you want to get paid, and what you actually get paid are the HR staff and yourself. There's a big difference between standing up for yourself and boasting about it to others.

You can believe what you want, but it's YOUR responsibility to make the money you want to make, not a company's. If you work for less than you're worth, that's on you.

12/19/2010 4:06:07 PM

^ still if they try to shortchange a person that much on their salary then what makes you think they will treat what the person considers fair on other things. And by them accepting 55k counter-offer when they first offered 40k they are admitting that they knew you were worth 55k or they were mistaken by 25% on their offer, either one isn't the best indication of personnel practices and I suspect people at the company may not be the happiest or the best qualified for their job.

[Edited on December 19, 2010 at 4:41 PM. Reason : .]

12/19/2010 4:40:03 PM

^So you're telling me that if Apple runs a sale for 50% off a computer, you wouldn't buy it because you think the computer is worth more than that, which makes Apple a sheisty business?

If one guy is HAPPY making 40k, and the other guy is HAPPY making 55k for the same position, there's nothing unethical or immoral about it. If everyone got paid the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM they could, there wouldn't be anyone still in business.

Every company is different. This whole conversation is retarded. There are FAR better indicators of the fairness and ethics of a business than their starting salary offers.

12/19/2010 5:08:50 PM

A. people are not computers

B. if the guy making 40k knew the other guy was getting 55k for the same job he probably would not feel as happy.

C. Yes every company is different there are better ways to find out if a company is shiesty

D. A company has to pay money to attract good talent ie football teams and football players, if they don't do that they probably aren't the best

E. This conversation is stupid because there is more to life than money.

12/19/2010 5:16:59 PM

A. Resources are resources. People are very valuable resources, but they are still resources. An employee is replaceable just like a computer.

B. This is rarely talked about, because it doesn't help anyone.

D. The Yankees have the highest payroll in Baseball, but they don't win the championship every year. Better talent MAY make more, but it's not a given. How many Hall of Famers were first round draft picks with huge initial contracts? Not a whole lot. Most started out with very modest salaries and earned more money as they proved their worth to their employers.

E. Totally agree.

12/19/2010 5:28:56 PM

money is so blah........


everyone should work for min. wage....

12/19/2010 6:10:59 PM

Quote :

"Madison-Moydan"

That's Mayodan and it's pronounced meh-dan by the natives.

12/20/2010 8:31:09 AM

do reply back here with what goes down.

12/20/2010 11:46:56 AM

I will. I am going to call tomorrow and work this all out. I have some other questions as well, so I need to call him anyway. And I think it would work out best for all of us if we hammer this out as quickly as possible.

12/20/2010 7:39:36 PM

I'm about to counter-offer my company on the new position they offered me. I'll let you know if it succeeds.

12/20/2010 8:59:43 PM

I'm pretty sure a counter offer voids the original offer letter, as you decline the offer. If they have another candidate, they have the right to offer the other person the job they just offered you. If they accept, you continue living the dream.

12/20/2010 10:39:51 PM

I have an offer for you, but this is the Lounge.

12/20/2010 10:59:58 PM

^^ They have the right to rescind the offer at anytime, regardless of whether I counter or not.

12/21/2010 12:06:02 AM

Late to the game here, but the best advice has already been given.

You were chosen.

Being hired isn't all about the company.

They picked you out of the candidates they had and now they're slightly attached. There is a decent chance they've already turned away most of the other candidates (this happens more than you think).

If they really want you to work there, they want you to be happy there too. Talk about the number you need to hit and be understanding.

It's a relationship and a bit of give and take. If they can't hit the number exactly, find other negotiables.

My last job offer was $10k below what I wanted, but had INCREDIBLE benefits... like free babies and sports at lunch type of benefits. I talked to the hiring manager about it and prefaced it with "I'm really excited to be joining the team, but was hoping we could work through some of the offer details so that we're both happy."

She ended up being really honest and said the most she was allowed to do was increase by $2,500. So I took that and explained that I was confident I would perform and asked that we meet my number by adding quarterly reviews. She relayed with her boss and they offered me up to 10% in reviews.

I negotiated that to 15%. All in all, by performing... I exceeded the number I wanted to hit by a thousand bucks or so and have growth potential. I love where I work and have incredible benefits.

The biggest junior mistake is not talking through your career. It is YOUR career. Companies hire you and you bring as much to the table as they do. Don't sell yourself short and be honest and open. Do the same as you work there.

You'd be amazed at the number of raises and promotions that happen just by talking about it with your boss. Heck, most of the time they'll even give you the plan to get there and review it on a regular basis with you.

If you care about your career... be honest and open about what you want and try to talk through it. It will tell you plenty about where you are about to work and hopefully you'll get to a happy compromise in the meantime.

[Edited on December 21, 2010 at 12:45 AM. Reason : .]

12/21/2010 12:43:04 AM

^ Thanks for the advice. It really seems to make sense.

I just tried calling, and he didn't pick up. I left him a voice message, so hopefully he'll get back to me within an hour or so.

12/21/2010 1:55:39 PM

Why not talk to someone at the Career Center on campus and discuss your salary and options? That is what they are there for (unless campus is closed for the Holiday). Not sure when you have to give a response but that might be an option.

Alot of good advice from everyone before, 40k sounds low, I started my first job 6 years ago making 45k + benefits in EE. Background is that I no longer work there but this company had 10 employees.

12/21/2010 4:57:18 PM

free babies?

12/21/2010 4:59:42 PM

^ Paying for all childcare expenses and the birth. Where I work, anything that insurance doesn't cover is reimbursed if it is related to pregnancy care.

12/21/2010 5:04:18 PM

Quote :

"^^ They have the right to rescind the offer at anytime, regardless of whether I counter or not. "

Not unless its something out of the ordinary - failed drug test, background check goes bad, caught lying on the resume - something a court would agree on. When you sign the letter you're employed unless you break a rule in their fine print. When you do not sign the letter and try to change the terms verbally or through writing, the current letter isn't valid. So if you were referring to them revoking the letter prior to you signing it, you're probably right - but upon you singing it and their confirmation of receipt you can quit your job and transfer knowing they, unspokenly, have to give you at least 90 days. Yes, there are million things that can change that, but those are ADP rules

12/21/2010 8:36:43 PM

^I'm not sure about with those rules...its the first I've heard of them...but I knew of several people who had offers rescinded just before graduation in 2009. Not sure if they signed letters or not, but these were guys who had the offer for months and the company just called up and said "hey, we can't offer you your position anymore, good luck!" At least one of them was a guy who worked several internships at the company.

12/21/2010 8:57:24 PM