i drink (what i consider to be) a considerable amount of skim milk every day (i'm guessing 16-24oz)...the health benefits of dairy fats can be had by eating reasonable amounts of cheese and/or ice cream (in my case, i get enough from cheese so my ice cream is usually low- or non-fat)

put me squarely in the camp that is skeptical of the "benefits" provided by raw milk...biologically, humans didn't develop NEEDING the probiotics found in milk and to me, the ability to tolerate them (and even utilize them to some small degree) is a far cry from deriving any true value from them

all that said, i've never had raw milk, though it was explained to me once that raw milk is to pasteurized milk what fresh peaches are to canned peaches

1/24/2011 2:05:40 PM

i like yogurt

1/24/2011 2:39:11 PM

I probably eat more yogurt than drink milk. For some reason it's also easier to find yogurt made from grass-fed cow milk than the milk itself.

1/24/2011 2:55:07 PM

i also like yogurt and eat at least 8oz every day...but that's more because i actually LIKE yogurt

dumb question: are the probiotics in yogurt supposed to be the same probiotics in raw milk? admittedly, i know very little on the subject

1/24/2011 2:55:35 PM

^ Naw different stuff.

The only reason I think it's bs you can't buy raw milk if you want to is you can buy all sorts of other food that is questionable in its safety with no one giving a damn. I'm surprised its legal in SC but not NC, but then again SC has a lot more religious nutjobs than NC does

1/24/2011 2:58:53 PM

^ oh, i agree with you completely...i mean, i can buy raw eggs and eat them raw if i want to...the odds that i'll get sick are actually pretty low, but i can still BUY them in their "unsafe" form

i imagine the greatest risk of "bad" stuff in raw milk is introduced by dirty equipment, not from the cows themselves...a valid concern 150 years ago, not so much now

1/24/2011 3:06:13 PM

Yeah dirty equipment and also mastitis, which these days is mostly caused by the use of growth hormone and unsanitary conditions in industrial milking houses.

1/24/2011 3:08:36 PM

ah, good point

on a side note, i think i'm going to make my kids eat dirt on a regular basis so they can develop a healthy immune system

1/24/2011 3:12:46 PM

aha yeah I ate plenty of dirt as a kid, though probably not with my parents' knowledge

1/24/2011 3:19:54 PM

Quote :

"milk doesn't eat grass"

1/24/2011 4:22:18 PM

Quote :

"i imagine the greatest risk of "bad" stuff in raw milk is introduced by dirty equipment, not from the cows themselves...a valid concern 150 years ago, not so much now"

a quick hose down is only going to clean the teat and udder so well, i'm good not having a first-hand account of what listeria can do to my body.

1/24/2011 4:58:38 PM

Quote :

"i imagine the greatest risk of "bad" stuff in raw milk is introduced by dirty equipment, not from the cows themselves...a valid concern 150 years ago, not so much now "

spoken like a person who has never seen a cow before. The udders on dairy cows practically drag across the ground when they're full. A cow with diarrhea will have shit all over it's udder. simply spraying that down with water isn't going to sanitize it.

1/24/2011 5:37:54 PM

Quote :

"spoken like a person who has never seen a cow before. The udders on dairy cows practically drag across the ground when they're full. A cow with diarrhea will have shit all over it's udder. simply spraying that down with water isn't going to sanitize it."

haha, fuck you, too...i've been to a number of dairy operations and i can say from experience that it's helluva lot cleaner than udders covered in shit sprayed down with a garden hose

1/24/2011 6:11:30 PM

I love dairy farm operations. Just the idea of robots milking cows makes me smile. The robots and the animals are working together to make me happy.

I can't find any links right now, but I thought I remember reading about how the dairy industry is one of the biggest employers of robots in the economy.

1/24/2011 6:19:40 PM

Quote :

"i've been to a number of dairy operations and i can say from experience that it's helluva lot cleaner than udders covered in shit sprayed down with a garden hose "

I was raised on a beef farm. Even with the smaller udders on the angus and herefords we raised, they were nasty. If you don't think cow udders are covered in shit, then bring a cow out of a field and milk it. I guarantee you that your hand will be green and slimy.

1/24/2011 6:56:32 PM

my grandparents had dairy farms, i spent plenty of time at them, i even held the camera while they filmed the spanish training video at one of them.

the only thing standing between your raw milk and shit is some teat dip and a paper towel. and the cleaning techniques are to keep the cows healthy, not you.

1/24/2011 7:14:04 PM

So I guess pasteurizing the cow crap makes it all better

1/24/2011 7:28:39 PM

definitely kills any listeria

1/24/2011 7:45:48 PM

mrfrog. you came out of thin air for me.

i have never really noticed your posts until now, and i'm kinda sad about that.

you seem pretty interesting.


that's it

1/24/2011 7:47:58 PM

You would convince my with the fact that non-pasturized milk tastes better. This "what does not kill you makes you stronger" is a bunch of BS. The first part of that statement is a first order effect, while the second part is a second order effect.

We live much longer than we did before because of the wonderful first order effect of killing germs.

1/24/2011 10:54:25 PM

Quote :

"milk doesn't eat grass anything"

I would like to get involved in this thread, but after reading all the posts, I have nothing to add. Everything I would have said has already been said, except providing you with these links:

http://www.realmilk.com
http://www.rawmilk.org

The 1st link has lots of links to scientific literature, and it also gives you locations in every state where you can find raw milk and raw milk products. 2nd link also has articles on benefits.

1/25/2011 6:29:55 AM

In case my post gets buried and those who are interested miss out on the locations:

http://www.realmilk.com/where4.html#nc

1/25/2011 7:22:16 AM

Yep read all those before.

Now if anyone would actuallyanswer the question I asked rather than getting sidetracked that'd be awesome

1/25/2011 8:05:04 AM

Quote :

"I can't find any links right now, but I thought I remember reading about how the dairy industry is one of the biggest employers of robots in the economy."

How It's Made: Milk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIbVwE5zb1Y

1/25/2011 8:18:31 AM

In direct response to the OP:

Doesn't Maple View Farm in Hillsborough NC have grass fed cows? Their stuff is in like every grocery store in the area in the reusable bottles.



http://www.mapleviewfarm.com/

If you're just looking for grass fed, doesn't this work? Or did I just make those facts up?

1/25/2011 9:03:57 AM

^ You made those facts up They feed their cows corn and soy and also give their cows antibiotics, though they claim that that is on a limited basis.

I was sad to find out their cows are not pasture-raised because I assumed they were

1/25/2011 10:32:40 AM

well that's a buzz kill

They all look so wholesome. But this is the face of an anti-bioticed cow!



Guess you're going to really have to work at it, for a place like this. There really is no option other than small scale and buying through personal kind of connections.

Quote :

" Baucom’s Best 100% Grassfed Beef is raised exclusively on the Baucom Family Farm located just outside the Charlotte Metropolitan area in rural Union County, NC. Since we are responsible for the care of our cattle their entire lives, we can guarantee that our Black Angus cattle are fed no grain or animal by-products and are raised in a healthy and humane environment. Our cattle are given no antibiotics or hormones and are allowed to “fatten” on high quality forages. Our pastures are never sprayed with pesticides or chemical fertilizers. Our naturally tender Black Angus Beef is well marbled and dry aged to enhance its flavor and tenderness. Everyday we are crafting our product by selecting the best mix of forages and cattle genetics to create a one of a kind eating experience. Our goal is to produce a quality eating experience for our customer every time. Our beef is available year round and can be purchased online at our website. Our beef is vacuum packed and flash frozen to preserve its freshness. Beef is sold by the cut and in specialty packages. Beef can be shipped, delivered or picked up at our family farm. We accept Visa and Mastercard. "

http://www.eatwild.com/products/nocarolina.html

1/25/2011 11:22:50 AM

Quote :

"I was sad to find out their cows are not pasture-raised because I assumed they were"

while i believe that, they do have pastures for their cows. they aren't just stuck in feed lots.

1/25/2011 11:26:29 AM

^^ Yeah, this is turning out to be a bigger pain in the ass than I expected

^ Yeah, their farming is still loads better than a factory milking operation but it's a shame they don't just fatten their cows up on hay and alfalfa rather than corn and soy

1/25/2011 11:36:44 AM

fuck a milk

still trying to find good sources of grass fed beef

message_topic.aspx?topic=598172

1/25/2011 11:49:17 AM

^ Son, I told you where to get your beef! You just have to drive to Raleigh to get it

1/25/2011 11:55:53 AM

it's ridic that I have to drive to "the city" to get a traditional farm product

[Edited on January 25, 2011 at 12:32 PM. Reason : but u right]

1/25/2011 12:32:19 PM

It's just branded differently in the country because they lack the liberals with $$

1/25/2011 12:35:24 PM

Quote :

"Our pastures are never sprayed with pesticides or chemical fertilizers. "

I personally would rather have animals raised on pastures given chemical fertilizers than those treated with organic fertilizers (usually human sewage). There's nothing dangerous about a pasture being treated with ammonium formate and lime, but there's something hideous about a cow grazing on a field that's been sprayed with human waste, toilet paper, used condoms, and tampons.

I, for one, want my cattle chocked full of antibiotics and hormones. Have you ever looked at a sick, malnourished cow or chicken and thought to yourself "man, that's good eating right there"? fuck no.

1/25/2011 1:33:49 PM

^ Who says an animal not treated with hormones and antibiotics is malnourished? Do you treat your dog with hormones and antibiotics on a regular basis?

1/25/2011 1:39:15 PM

what

the

fuck

1/25/2011 1:56:24 PM

There are certainly funky organic fertilizers, but if we're talking about cows, on organic farms, then the fields of grass are not worth a farmer's value to fertilize. Nature is designed for grassy planes constantly cut down by livestock and fertilized by the manure of the animals that eat it.

1/25/2011 2:12:17 PM

you ever seen a cow with blackleg or foot-and-mouth disease? Deer can rapidly spread diseases from herd to herd, and once one cow gets infected it usually spreads throughout the rest of the herd rather quickly due to confinement in the pastures or shared water sources and whatnot.

The whole purpose of giving cattle hormones is to make them fatten up and retain weight better. They don't lose weight every time they get a cold or a heavy snowfall makes it difficult for them to eat.

^if we don't fertilize our fields after our cows graze on them, they don't grow back well. We spread our manure on the fields and it helps, but unless you have about several acres of prime pasture for every cow then you're going to have to fertilize. No farmer, no matter how much of a hippy, is going to tie up that much land for so few cattle. Trust me, they are spreading sewage on the land.

1/25/2011 2:19:14 PM

you ever seen a cow with jackleg?

1/25/2011 2:25:42 PM

Quote :

"I was raised on a beef farm. Even with the smaller udders on the angus and herefords we raised, they were nasty."

if you were raised on a beef farm and did anything but sit on your ass all day, you'd know right off that a beef operation is very different from a dairy operation

Quote :

"If you don't think cow udders are covered in shit, then bring a cow out of a field and milk it. I guarantee you that your hand will be green and slimy."

this just proves that you have difficulty reading...or that you've never been to a modern dairy operation...or both

i never once said that cows themselves were clean and pretty...i said that large-scale dairy operations are quite clean

would i go around licking the cows' udders or the machinery? of course not...but i'm not terrified of the unseen nasties that likely aren't there after the cows and equipment have been disinfected

1/25/2011 2:35:09 PM

Didn't know that about grazing fields.

I don't understand how anyone can defend hormones. I don't know if I should limit this statement to beef or if it applies equally to milk. Hormones in meat has taken a terrible toll on society which is observed in developmental abnormalities in our young people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the evidence points to this.

Not only developmental problems, but milk consumption has been linked to diabetes too by very well-respected research. I understand how research works and I'm not saying this is fact, but there is a compelling case for it.

Quote :

"They argue that the risk of developing Type I diabetes is strongly correlated with the consumption of cow's milk by infants.[11] Autoimmune diseases such as Type I diabetes, multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis have certain common features and may share the same cause or causes. They say that autoimmune diseases are more prevalent among people who live at higher geographic latitudes, and also among people who consume a diet high in animal protein, particularly cow's milk. They argue that Vitamin D is plausibly connected to both of these correlations. Vitamin D is important for the proper regulation of the immune system, and that for people who live at higher geographic latitudes, a lack of exposure to ultraviolet sunlight can result in a deficiency. The consumption of animal protein, especially casein in cow's milk, results in higher concentrations of calcium in the blood, which inhibits the process by which the body activates Vitamin D in the kidneys to a form that helps repress the development of autoimmune diseases.[12]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_%28book%29

You can take different positions given the research we have available, and people like milk and dairy and they're going to eat it either way. But no way, absolutely no way, are hormone treatments not contributing to the health problems tied to our meat consumption.

And I shouldn't need to stress the severity of our nation's health problems linked to meat consumption.

1/25/2011 2:44:15 PM

Quote :

"And I shouldn't need to stress the severity of our nation's health problems linked to meat consumption."

No, just link to some propaganda and we can call it a day.

1/25/2011 3:00:07 PM

As a dairy farmer, I find it sad how many of you are college educated, yet are spouting off completely false views and "facts" in this thread.

1/25/2011 3:26:44 PM

Quote :

" but there's something hideous about a cow grazing on a field that's been sprayed with human waste, toilet paper, used condoms, and tampons."

that's not how it works and you know it, stop being obtuse

Quote :

" i never once said that cows themselves were clean and pretty...i said that large-scale dairy operations are quite clean would i go around licking the cows' udders or the machinery? of course not...but i'm not terrified of the unseen nasties that likely aren't there after the cows and equipment have been disinfected"

i notice that you skipped over my point. the disinfection process is wiping down with teat dip and drying, and its for the cows protection and not yours.

1/25/2011 4:10:29 PM

eleusis makes a mildly strong case for antibiotic use, but advocating (or even defending) hormone use is cuckoo.

1/25/2011 4:18:08 PM

Quote :

"that's not how it works and you know it, stop being obtuse "

maybe they've gotten better about it, but all of the farmers I know that signed up for human waste fertilizer ended up with all of that trash in their fields. It was beyond disgusting. Doubt it if you want to, but I'm not making that shit up.

1/25/2011 5:19:23 PM

Quote :

"advocating (or even defending) hormone use is cuckoo. "

do you have a problem with using hormones on steers? the bull would have naturally had high doses of testosterone and some estrodiol coursing through his system if his testicles hadn't been removed, so what's the problem with adding those hormones back to the steer to improve health and feed weight?

1/25/2011 5:27:14 PM

i mean my first undergraduate degree is in land resources engineering so i'm no stranger to this. animal waste would be much more common, and nutrient management plans have to be filed for any CFO. i'd pretty much put money on them not doing that at the farm, and heading to the big state building on capital blvd and pulling the permit would confirm it.

or are you talking about signing up to receive biosolids from a wastewater treatment plant? that stuff is still heavily processed, its not like they just scoop out the shit and throw it in a truck.

please list the farms that are receiving human shit with condoms in it, i'd be interested in reading the nutrient management plan

[Edited on January 25, 2011 at 5:34 PM. Reason : because it doesnt happen]

1/25/2011 5:33:39 PM

It's the solids from wastewater treatment plant solids, and their processing leaves a lot to be desired. It was common in Warren, Vance, and Franklin county in the late nineties until everyone got fed up with their pastures getting littered.

What the people selling the waste claim and what actually ends up in your fields are two completely separate things.

1/25/2011 6:25:14 PM

well i haven't personally visited the biosolids program in those counties, but the neuse river water treatment plant processes their biosolids in accordance to ISO 14001. and biosolids are different than shit. to begin with, before any biosolids can be processed the sewage must already meet 503 standards for land application which means is already gone through most of the water treatment plant (things like condoms get removed pretty early on). next the solids are processed for pathogen and odor removal then treated with lime for pH control. its a really cost effective way for farms to apply nutrients to their crops and is well received around here.

1/25/2011 7:39:28 PM