2 for fart sniffers

3/16/2011 11:03:25 AM

i was wishing that this thread was about Prius drivers camping out in the fast lane when everyone in the world knows you don't belong there since your max speed is 50

3/16/2011 11:24:19 AM

i got a motorcycle for the gas mileage and fun factor

3/16/2011 1:01:52 PM

Quote :

"^^Over the life of the vehicle (including manufacturing) a Toyota Pruis uses more energy than a Hummer H3. Pruis looks like an egg and is slow as shit. And then there's this"

so what are you advocating, outlawing hybrids?

There is consumer demand for these vehicles, and corporations are trying to meet that demand. whats wrong with that? should we force them to buy H3s because they 'use less energy' according to you?

i love disels as much as the next guy, but i don't see why the prius, and hybrids are getting all the hate.

from your own link:

Quote :

"There were some winners, too. Toyota Camry Hybrid showed a break-even point of $4 a gallon. It sells for an average of $3,300 more than its gas-powered counterpart. Likewise, the Ford Escape Hybrid showed a break-even point of $2.50 per gallon. It is $3,500 more than the conventional mod"

For some people it's not about saving money anyway. Its about using less foreign oil, lowering emissions, image, whatever. Who cares what their motives are? If you want to advocate some action on hybrids, I'm all ears.

3/16/2011 1:50:08 PM

Quote :

"i don't see why the prius, and hybrids are getting all the hate. "

Mostly because for all of the extra technology and cost, you're getting very little return on your investment. for MPG, you can do as good or better with a comparable diesel.

If it's the environment you're concerned about, you're just displacing pollution from one place to another.

At best it's the babiest of baby steps in the right direction.


[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 2:05:10 PM

I drive a geo metro and when shes tuned up I get ~50 mph. Best 800$ I've ever spent. The engine is about the size of a loaf of bread, so if anything goes wrong, its been pretty simple to fix myself

3/16/2011 2:50:15 PM

my round trip/day for school is about 70 miles. (backroad highway with tons of cops all the time so i don't go over 60 very often and about 1/3 of it is through towns)


do you think i should get a hybrid car to save money?
or is it not worth it?
i've been debating this for a while

3/16/2011 2:59:22 PM

Quote :

" for MPG, you can do as good or better with a comparable diesel."

As good or better? The only thing I can go off of is the numbers on the .gov site I linked to earlier, and I know a guy with a prius who gets a solid 50mpg in his Raleigh/Wake Forest/Durham area driving. What do the diesels get around the city (and yes i realize it's a mix of highway and city)? I don't think it's as good or better as the 50mpg. Do they (cars i can buy at a stealership) even get 50mpg on the highway?

Quote :

"Mostly because for all of the extra technology and cost, you're getting very little return on your investment."

Quote :

"At best it's the babiest of baby steps in the right direction."

Assuming the right direction is one in which aren't using as much foreign oil, i'd say it's bigger than a baby step, especially when you look at the fully electric cars coming out now.

3/16/2011 3:01:46 PM

well just setup a simple equation and figure out the fuel cost breakeven point to cover the extra cost with your known mileage. it's not something any of us can answer without knowing how much you currently spend on your car and what your payments would be for a hybrid (what you would need to finance and what kind of financing you can get). its not magic to determine, its just a basic equation to setup.

3/16/2011 3:03:45 PM

well i honestly dont feel like going through all the math. (yeah im being lazy)
i dont even know what my mpg is....
i dont owe anything on my car, ive been wanting a new one really bad and i was just wondering if 70 miles round trip 5ish days a week seems like a lot to drive to anyone else.


i was not expecting anyone to do "magic" and tell me what i'm spending vs what i could be.

i guess thats my fault though, i wasn't clear enough.




does 70 miles per day (round trip) seem like an big commute to you guys?

3/16/2011 3:15:45 PM

yes, but it might not be enough to cover the cost of a new car and without knowing the value of your current one and what will happen to gas prices no one can tell you what to do.

3/16/2011 3:17:11 PM

yeah...

i mean financing a new car wont be a big deal, at all, and i dont know when or if ill ever get around to it....

if im not mistaken dont a lot of the hybrids really only work well if your driving under like 30 mph?
like the electric power only works at lower speeds?



i'm also not asking for someone to tell me what to do, i am HORRIBLE at finances and also i know very little about hybrid cars so i'm asking for opinions, advice, and just information in general....isn't that what youre supposed to do when you are clueless about something?

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 3:27 PM. Reason : ?]

3/16/2011 3:19:42 PM

Quote :

"Do they (cars i can buy at a stealership) even get 50mpg on the highway?"

I consistently get a little over 50mpg on the highway in my 05 jetta TDI doing ~75mph. If I drive at around 60mph, I can get close to 60mpg.

check the tdiclub forums. there are psychotic folks on there who can squeeze as much as 1000 miles out of a 12 gallon tank, but they're doing shit like hypermiling and some modding to get there.

The 2011 audi a4 TDI is rated at 53mpg, but thanks to california's ridiculous laws, it and many other super efficient diesels aren't available in the US.


[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 3:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 3:28:36 PM

Quote :

"do you think i should get a hybrid car to save money? or is it not worth it? "

Quote :

"i dont owe anything on my car, ive been wanting a new one really bad"

How old is your current car? how many miles on it? If saving money is an issue it's very possible that keeping your current car is the most economical option if the only reason you are considering buying is because you want a new car. Not owing anything on a car is great. My wife and I both haven't had a car payment since 2005ish and I intend to keep it that way for as long as possible.

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 3:42 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 3:39:04 PM

it's an '03 seabring convertible with like 70k.

in all honesty its really not that big of a deal at all....
i just remember talking to cody abotu how i have like 3ish years of school left, and my last year i could be driving considerably more and if gas jumped to 4-5ish dollars a gallon how much it would be etc etc.

its an idea ive been toying with but i just dont know if ill even act on it :p

Quote :

"Not owing anything on a car is great."

AMEN! that is the one thing keeping me with it





and honestly the more i think about it, the more i think i had my mind made up before i came in here i guess i was trying to see if there was anything that could change my mind

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 3:45 PM. Reason : fkes]

3/16/2011 3:42:39 PM

Quote :

"I consistently get a little over 50mpg on the highway in my 05 jetta TDI doing ~75mph. If I drive at around 60mph, I can get close to 60mpg. check the tdiclub forums. there are psychotic folks on there who can squeeze as much as 1000 miles out of a 12 gallon tank, but they're doing shit like hypermiling and some modding to get there. The 2011 audi a4 TDI is rated at 53mpg, but thanks to california's ridiculous laws, it and many other super efficient diesels aren't available in the US."

What do you get in city driving in the TDI? And do the new TDIs get that same mileage? Doesn't sound like it according to the EPA site.

3/16/2011 3:46:39 PM

Quote :

"buy a vw golf turbo diesel and profit by saving the earth and money"

i agree with this portion of that statement

3/16/2011 3:50:53 PM

TDIs are awesome... i would get one if i was that concerned about mileage....
however you hybrid owners need to know that the $ break even point on your car being a hybrid is gas costing $5-$7 per gallon.... (and $21 per gallon for the suburban hybrid)

And you can say... "not if i own it forever" but your batteries are worth more than your car at some point and they don't last as long as you'd want them to. those are pretty much concrete numbers.


p.s. we have a suzuki esteem... gets 30mpg around town and 35 highway... i drive a legacy gt that gets nearly 30mpg highway and 22-24 city if i can keep my damned foot off the happy pedal (which i can't)

3/16/2011 3:51:45 PM

^ way to not read the thread.

Quote :

"Some extra costs for a hybrid were more out of whack than others. For example, the break-even point for the Cadillac Escalade Hybrid was found to be on average $15 per gallon. For the Nissan Altima Hybrid, it was $9.50 per gallon, CarGurus.com says. There were some winners, too. Toyota Camry Hybrid showed a break-even point of $4 a gallon. It sells for an average of $3,300 more than its gas-powered counterpart. Likewise, the Ford Escape Hybrid showed a break-even point of $2.50 per gallon. It is $3,500 more than the conventional model.""

what about break even points for diesels? looks like the 2011 golf tdi costs almost $5000 more than the golf. especially considering the diesel costs ~10% more than gas

3/16/2011 3:54:48 PM

I'm enjoying this thread.

My brother may buy my car from me sometime this year, so I've started the search for a new car. I want something like a Jetta, but I thought about the hybrid thing since I drive about 60 miles (95% being highway) each day.

I want some good gas mileage yo.

3/16/2011 3:56:03 PM

lol i don't like hearing fake i'm going to save the earth babble lol

I knew the escape and the fusion are 2 of the best cars but most are worthless.

Seriously though i save the world metric shit tons of energy every day i think i should be given some free gas.

-foo1

^ get a tdi the hybridness really doesn't get you much better highway mileage. the only energy it does save is every time you hit your brakes that power gets recycled into acceleration. If you don't hit your brakes much it doesn't do much for you.


[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 3:59 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 3:57:42 PM

the gas price break even point you all keep quoting still depends on how many miles you drive

3/16/2011 3:58:57 PM

Quote :

"What do you get in city driving in the TDI? And do the new TDIs get that same mileage? Doesn't sound like it according to the EPA site."

the EPA numbers are not real world numbers.

The EPA sticker on our Jetta read 38/46, and we get much better than that. I don't know what real world numbers are on the newer TDIs, but it varies from model to model. We get low 40s in the city on ours.

oh yeah oil changes needed only every 10k miles FTW.

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 3:59:32 PM

^^ you gonna drive much more than 15000miles per year... i think the estimates are actually a bit on the conservative side.

^ and they're one of the few cars that beat the epa #s


I'm not saying don't get an economical car... get a car with a small engine ... not a flippin hybrid...

see:

Ford fiesta
2012 focus

Hyundai Elantra

Kia forte etc.

just don't get a stupid hybrid... they're not quite to the point where its worth it yet.


[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 4:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 4:00:56 PM

well 15k miles isn't that high, 12-15 is generally considered average. And no where in that article do the mention 15k miles, so they could be using somehting a lot different.

3/16/2011 4:05:38 PM

Well I do hit traffic going to Durham EVERY FUCKING MORNING so I hit my brakes a bit thanks to the crazy people on the road.

Bobby I like every 10k (I'm bad about remembering 3k )

3/16/2011 4:06:19 PM

Quote :

"lol i don't like hearing fake i'm going to save the earth babble lol"

is that somewhere in this thread?

Quote :

"If you don't hit your brakes much it doesn't do much for you. "

seems like the prius gets pretty good highway mileage too..

Quote :

"oh yeah oil changes needed only every 10k miles FTW."

my gas car only requires oil changes every 15k

3/16/2011 4:07:02 PM

^^ changing your commute time might be a simple way to save money then. i, too, commute to durham but get to my office a little before 8 and hit zero traffic. plus, i miss it on the way home too.

3/16/2011 4:08:02 PM

15k is the industry standard there are about 3 articles done like this....

now some mercedes and lexus's you can actually get the hybrid models cheaper than the rest so i guess they're a good buy.

but again if you're driving more then 15k per year its probably 90% highway miles and again you'd just be better off with a car that has a smaller engine then lugging around 300-500#s of batteries everywhere you go

^^there isn't i just assumed it ...

and yes it does good highway mileage... but not any better then a comparable sized car with the same size engine and no batteries.

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 4:08:37 PM

oops double

[Edited on March 16, 2011 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

3/16/2011 4:10:19 PM

Well the only change I can make is to come in at 9 instead of 8:30 which isn't much of a difference (I've tried).

We already have a person in the office that comes in early and they need me to catch all the calls coming in from California

3/16/2011 4:13:45 PM

Yeah i do 7:30 to 4:30 to miss traffic (didn't work this morn thanks mr head con collision and mr semi that ran into a bridge)

3/16/2011 4:17:08 PM

^ basically same for me. I do 10 hour days M-TH as my normal schedule but I am in 7:30 - 5:30. The morning drive is easy as I try and get in closer to 7 if possible. Afternoon drive still sucks though.

3/16/2011 4:19:45 PM

Unless at least 50% of your driving is "city" driving getting a hybird makes absolutely no sense. Mostly highway driving nullifies most of the advantages of a hybird. In fact, if a person wonders about that it means they know very little about how a hybrid actually works.

Hybrids get better than average fuel economy on the highway b/c of their aerodynamic shape (esp for ugly egg shaped ones like the Prius and Insight) and tiny engines. It has hardly anything to do with the battery pack or electric motor.

For most people who want to balance financial and environmental considerations the best thing you can do is keep your current vehicle in a proper state of tune, with the oil level as it should be, a clean air filter in place, all emissions equipment working fault free, and with the tires all properly inflated. Below 45 mph use your air conditioning as little as possible (above that speed the added drag from open windows or a sunroof hurts gas mileage more than running the AC). One final small bit of advice (that only applies to the real pack rats) is to remove any unnecessary junk from your car. Anything you leave in your trunk or back seat all the time is just extra weight your vehicle is burdened with.

[Edited on March 17, 2011 at 2:15 PM. Reason : g]

3/17/2011 2:13:05 PM

Quote :

"^^Over the life of the vehicle (including manufacturing) a Toyota Pruis uses more energy than a Hummer H3."

Any source on this?

3/17/2011 4:46:33 PM

I too would like to see said source. i figured he would provide it when i posted:

Quote :

"There is consumer demand for these vehicles, and corporations are trying to meet that demand. whats wrong with that? should we force them to buy H3s because they 'use less energy' according to you?"

3/17/2011 4:49:31 PM

http://onemansblog.com/2007/03/27/prius-outdoes-hummer-in-environmental-damage/

Quote :

"You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius' EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. "

That's probably what he was referring to.

Compare Prius: http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius

to Golf TDI: http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/golf/diesel%20l4

and Jetta: http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/jetta/diesel%20l4

3/17/2011 5:13:47 PM

^ your first link doesn't resolve.

He's probably referring to word of mouth.

The actual basis for that little bit of misinformation is linked to here:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9750840-1.html

Quote :

"Now the study has been well discredited in a paper titled "Hummer versus Prius: 'Dust to Dust' Report Misleads the Media and Public with Bad Science" (PDF) by Dr. Peter H. Gleick of the Pacific Institute. Dr. Gleick's paper pokes holes in the original study, pointing out its poor assumptions such as the usable life of a Hummer H1 (35 years) versus the life of a Prius (11) years. The original study also based its conclusions on the lifetime miles of a Prius versus a Hummer H1, where it assumed 109,000 miles versus 379,000 miles, respectively. The 109,000 mile figure for the Prius is truly bizarre, as many people have documented their Priuses getting well over this number. Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9750840-1.html#ixzz1GtU5m1lL"

and like i said before:

Quote :

"what about break even points for diesels? looks like the 2011 golf tdi costs almost $5000 more than the golf. especially considering the diesel costs ~10% more than gas"

they still cost more than all the conventional cars hybrids are being compared against, and their fuel costs more too. it doesn't have to be all hybrid versus diesel. can't we just look at them both as steps in the right direction? yes I realize that hybrids are the darlings of the lefties, but that doesn't mean we have arm ourselves with misinformation to say they're mostly pointless/counterproductive and diesels are vastly superior.

3/17/2011 5:17:21 PM

BMW 520d beats Prius in 545-mile real world test

message_topic.aspx?topic=518618

3/17/2011 6:30:51 PM

^ That's awesome

3/17/2011 7:03:17 PM

Quote :

"Fuel cost £54.19 (diesel) "

Quote :

"Fuel cost £54.64 (petrol) "

I didn't know you could save a whopping £.45 for every 545 miles driven. That's got to be close to $.60 American. You'll certainly recoup any price difference between a BMW 520d and a Toyota Prius in no time.

[Edited on March 18, 2011 at 12:14 AM. Reason : s]

3/18/2011 12:07:02 AM

^^^ if the AC was off does that mean the windows were down? Because that would hurt fuel economy more than help it.

3/18/2011 12:56:19 AM

Quote :

"There is consumer demand for these vehicles, and corporations are trying to meet that demand. whats wrong with that? should we force them to buy H3s because they 'use less energy' according to you?"

Yeah thanks for repost that. You don't have to be an ass. I didn't reply b/c a lot of time had passed from when you posted it to when I visited the thread again. Go back and read my comments and tell me where I said there's no reason to buy one. I gave evidence why some reasons are dumb. I never said all reasons are dumb. As to the H3 comment, interesting find you got on the H1. I could have sworn it was the H3 though...I'll try to look around for that.

Quote :

"they still cost more than all the conventional cars hybrids are being compared against, and their fuel costs more too"

Quite true, diesel engines and their emissions equipment are expensive, moreso than a gasoline powertrain. However, the difference between a diesel model and a gasonline model (of the same car) and that of a hybrid version of a conventional automobile is that for the higher price you don't get a more gutless and slower version of the same car. Instead you get a torque monster that is still somewhat fun (in most applications) to drive. Of course, a few hybrid models are hybrid only so you can't directly compare them to a convention version of themselves.

[Edited on March 18, 2011 at 11:28 AM. Reason : d]

3/18/2011 11:23:26 AM

Quote :

"I drive a geo metro and when shes tuned up I get ~50 mph."

I know you probably meant 50 mpg, but what you posted is also probably true

3/18/2011 11:31:24 AM

Quote :

"I'll try to look around for that."

I'm gonna take a stab that there aren't two different studies that compared a hummer and a prius in this context, with the hummer as the victor, but good luck with that hunt.

Quote :

"However, the difference between a diesel model and a gasonline model (of the same car) and that of a hybrid version of a conventional automobile is that for the higher price you don't get a more gutless and slower version of the same car"

surely you realize that the vast majority of the car buying public doesn't care about cars being gutless. I realize for the auto enthusiast crowd, acceleration/fun matters, but for most it doesn't. mpg, safety, features, cost...they're up there. acceleration/fun typically is not. eg i don't see anything remotely fun to drive in this list http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/top-10/top-10-best-selling-vehicles-for-2010.html.

Quote :

" it doesn't have to be all hybrid versus diesel. can't we just look at them both as steps in the right direction?"

can't we all just get along?



serious question: do electric cars deserve this level of hate or are they better?

3/18/2011 1:46:05 PM

^You are most likely correct about that statement (RE: Hummers)

Electric cars are worse. No affordable electric car exists (without subsidies) and no electric car has a battery with the energy equivalent of a 10 gallon gasoline tank. Nor can they recharge to capacity in 5 minutes like a conventional vehicle can fill up a gas station.

3/18/2011 4:27:04 PM

^ so whats the conclusion of that? anyone who purchases one is an idiot? they wouldn't be allowed to be on sale? i'm missing the point...

for some people theyre perfectly practical. for some they're not, but as range and charging options improve over the years they'll become more and more practical. true statements?

im sure the first few waves of cars weren't practical for many people, but as quality and infrastructure improved they became more practical

3/18/2011 5:40:42 PM

2002 Golf (gas) for $3500, low miles, excellent service record and condition. Got it because it's a solid ride, I can fix 80% of the things on it, but mostly because I can get 31-35 mpg highway for my work service calls. That and I got pissed off every time that for the preceding 3 months I would respond to a well-priced early 2000's Golf TDI ad and every time I got a reply back from the seller it was already sold

[Edited on March 18, 2011 at 6:17 PM. Reason : Post message!]

3/18/2011 6:16:26 PM

there are other vehicle options that are better for the environment than a prius . . .

Quote :

"Assuming the right direction is one in which aren't using as much foreign oil, i'd say it's bigger than a baby step, especially when you look at the fully electric cars coming out now."

not particularly since foreign oil is used to ship parts around the world and to produce electricity to manufacture the parts . . .

fully electric cars != Prius

Quote :

"I'm gonna take a stab that there aren't two different studies that compared a hummer and a prius in this context, with the hummer as the victor, but good luck with that hunt."

I have found this, but it's been debunked largely for using poorly estimated numbers and bad total milage selection (107k miles as the average lifespan of a prius vs 387k for a hummer, avg used for this is traditionally 178k (for all))

the second study is the debunking one . . .

Quote :

"Electric cars are worse. No affordable electric car exists (without subsidies) and no electric car has a battery with the energy equivalent of a 10 gallon gasoline tank. Nor can they recharge to capacity in 5 minutes like a conventional vehicle can fill up a gas station.Electric cars are worse. No affordable electric car exists (without subsidies) and no electric car has a battery with the energy equivalent of a 10 gallon gasoline tank. Nor can they recharge to capacity in 5 minutes like a conventional vehicle can fill up a gas station."

true enough, if i lived in a large city though i'd get one over a gas car (though i'd probably just walk or bike) for a grocery getter. i sure as hell wouldnt have one as my only vehicle though (outside of europe you can't get anywhere far without a car)

[Edited on March 18, 2011 at 7:43 PM. Reason : s]

3/18/2011 7:33:50 PM

I, too, wish we had more nice, small diesel cars.


I mostly drive my BMW motorcycle. My Corvette usually gets driven a couple of times per week, except for the week per month that I have my daughter, when it's my primary transportation. My truck gets driven once per week or less, and usually for only 10-20 miles or so.

BMW R100RT: ~40 mpg

Corvette Z06: average 19-20 on most tanks. It will get upper 20s on the highway, though. I don't care about fuel costs with this one...the tire cost is what will break the bank (probably works out to about $400/month on tires).

Ram 2500HD (V10, 4x4): seems to get about 10-11 mpg under most conditions. I did get 12 mpg once, strictly on the highway. It will get 7.5-8 mpg while pulling/hauling 10,000 lbs, though.

3/19/2011 12:23:39 AM