So, now all of the rebels are rounding up blacks and accusing them all of fighting for Gadhafi...good job spending millions backing these guys

http://news.yahoo.com/libyan-rebels-round-black-africans-130723394.html

[Edited on September 5, 2011 at 1:13 AM. Reason : flkj]

9/5/2011 1:13:31 AM

While I am happy that dictators are being thrown out of their chairs across the Arab world, at the same time, it doesn't mean that those who helped to topple, the rest of the citizens, and the security forces will settle into a happy democracy where people are respected, freedoms are guaranteed, and women and children are not oppressed anymore.

There can be no real democracy or freedom of speech/action in any Arab or Muslim-dominant country. That's just impossible.

Not many people here in this thread, or in the US, know the Arab/Muslim psyche or mind-set. Arabs/Muslims have been conditioned to be extremely reactionary from birth by parents, schools, and society. Just to give an example, in many parts of the Muslim world, if for example, I am having a fight with someone on the streets, or come across an enemy, I can easily accuse him publicly of insulting the Prophet or the Quran, and most likely, the person will be severely beaten up, if not lynched by a mob... forget about due process or ascertaining whether my enemy even said anything I am accusing him of. That's how many Arabs are, including the ones bringing 'democracy' to some Arab countries these days. Add to that the tribal and sect-ioned nature of most of the those countries, and you get a recipe for non-stop fighting and violence. Labeling other [Muslim] groups as 'infidels' and calling for their arrest/death is common.

Since the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia, I have read so many articles about people voicing their frustrations over being shown the same lack of respect and decency by police, security forces, etc., of reporters and journalists being told what they can write and what they can't, and of women still being repressed.

There is no culture of respect in Arab countries, to put it bluntly. Racism and discrimination of all types is common place and practiced widely by governments, companies, families, everybody. Fear is instilled in people from birth; fear of the father, fear of the tribal leader, fear of Allah, fear of teachers, fear of the police, fear of the ruler/ruling family/government, etc. Beatings are common, by everybody I just mentioned. I describe it as a "culture of death and destruction", after having lived among Arabs/Muslims for most of my life.

I wish all these countries the best, but I really can't see any appreciable democracy [freedom of speech/action, no secret police, respect and equality] in Egypt, Tunisia, and Libya in the near [or far] future. Or for that matter in Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, and Oman, whenever their leaders/dictators/kings are deposed.

Here you go, an example of what I mean, found on the sideline on the page above ^

http://news.yahoo.com/jordan-woman-killed-hospital-over-pregnancy-004531381.html

It is all about honor, leaders, figures, and red lines that cannon be crossed, in Arab and Muslim countries. Not about equality, respect for the common person, respect for the law, or freedom.


[Edited on September 5, 2011 at 9:37 AM. Reason : ]

9/5/2011 9:26:39 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14799075

Quote :

"An armed convoy of at least 50 vehicles from Libya has crossed over the southern desert border into Niger. The convoy is believed to be carrying mainly Tuareg fighters recruited by fugitive Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi to fight for his regime."

Where's one of those captioned pictures that says "bye"?

The rebels need to hurry up and win this war before the international media's attention span runs out.

9/6/2011 11:57:38 AM

^^ In this system, how do you explain the Turkish exception? Is it simply because Turks don't have the same cultural issues as Arabs (the Turks I've met emphasize that they're not backward like their Arab brethren)? Was it that Ataturk completely deconstructed Turkish society? Something else? Would it be possible for Arabs to follow a similar model? Turks after all are Muslim with a long history of direct involvement and mixing with the Arabs, yet the modern Turkish state always hit me as being relatively progressive, especially compared to the neighboring Arab world. Just curious how they contrast.

9/6/2011 3:35:35 PM

Quote :

"I wish all these countries the best, but I really can't see any appreciable democracy [freedom of speech/action, no secret police, respect and equality] in Egypt, Tunisia, and Libya in the near [or far] future. Or for that matter in Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, and Oman, whenever their leaders/dictators/kings are deposed."

I agree with this. Islam is far too extreme, at least in the way that it has been carried out. There can be no separation between religion and state in these regions; their religion commands that God is the State, and vice versa.

However, I think it's plausible or even true that Western intervention has encouraged this radicalization. "We" (The United States, Britain, the people responsible for carrying out these various "civilizing missions") are the common enemy that the Islamic world can rally together and fight against.

9/6/2011 3:56:45 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/12/us-boots-on-ground-in-libya-pentagon-confirms/

Quote :

"U.S. Boots on the Ground in Libya, Pentagon Confirms Despite repeated assurances from President Obama and military leaders that the U.S. would not send uniformed military personnel into Libya, four U.S. service members arrived on the ground in Tripoli over the weekend. According to Pentagon spokesman Capt. John Kirby, the four unidentified troops are there working under the State Department's chief of mission to assist in rebuilding the U.S. Embassy. Kirby noted the embassy in Tripoli was badly damaged during the conflict between Muammar Qaddafi's forces and the rebels. Two of the military personnel are explosive-ordnance experts who will be used to disable any explosives traps left in the embassy. The other two are "general security," according to Kirby. "

More of a technicality, but still

9/12/2011 1:24:30 PM

obama! that warmongering redneck!

9/12/2011 2:21:22 PM

Quote :

""We" (The United States, Britain, the people responsible for carrying out these various "civilizing missions") are the common enemy that the Islamic world can rally together and fight against."

Except that the Muslim wold - even those corners of it that have seen Western military intervention - have not, by and large, done that.

9/12/2011 11:07:51 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14835354
Seems that missiles, mines, rockets and small arms have been left in unsecured cashes throughout libya as gaddafi loyalists flee. Much of this ordnance has now gone missing...not good in a country which many fear may be strongly influenced by al-qaida or other muslim extremists.

Quote :

"This week, journalists in and around the Libyan capital, Tripoli, have reported visiting buildings containing missiles, grenades, rockets and mines - all unsecured. In one site, Peter Bouckaert from the campaign group Human Rights Watch, says he found 100,000 anti-tank and anti-personnel mines. But it is the empty boxes and containers which have sparked bigger fears."

Quote :

"Col Gaddafi had had a "vast arsenal" of some 20,000 SAMs, of which much had gone. "It seems to be one of Gaddafi's favourite toys." Such weapons, Mr Bouckaert adds, would be "capable of bringing down a civilian aircraft". "These are the kind of weapons that groups like al-Qaeda, and Iran and other countries, want to get their hands on, for the technology," he said."

Quote :

"Meanwhile, the discovery of gas masks in some sites in Libya has also raised questions about the quantity and whereabouts of Col Gaddafi's chemical weapons."

[Edited on September 12, 2011 at 11:20 PM. Reason : .]

9/12/2011 11:20:06 PM

10/20/2011 7:46:39 AM

With Osama, Saddam, and now Momar killed, I guess we can bring all the troops home. The country is now safe. USA #1!

10/20/2011 8:42:52 AM

10/20/2011 2:24:31 PM

10/20/2011 3:21:43 PM

Someone should caption "I MUST BREAK YOU" on that Obama/Gadafy pic.

Same thing with Saddam/Rumsfield.

10/20/2011 3:44:18 PM

US Ambassador to Libya murdered about 11pm our time as he was being evacuated from the embassy....

I don't see this turning out well for anyone

9/12/2012 7:27:12 AM

I don't either. 3 other Americans were killed also.
All our pathetic pussy of a President could do was strongly condemn.
Should had a sub parked of the coast and leveled the area with Tomahawks.

This should have never happened. Where and what were the intel indications in the area?
If there were indications why weren't our people evacuated before this happened?

Shoulda put Claymore mines all over the top of that wall and rigged the whole place to blow after we left.

9/12/2012 8:25:11 AM

9/12/2012 8:42:33 AM

Quote :

"All our pathetic pussy of a President could do was strongly condemn."

Whoa, hold on just a sec. Didn't Obama plan the offensive that took out Osama Bin Laden?

Seriously though, what did you expect. Action?

9/12/2012 9:10:26 AM

No he did not. All he did was say OK to the plan that was put before him. We found Bin Laden in spite of Obama.
The Bush administration began the offensive that took our Bin Landen. The people and mechanisms put in place by the Bush administration are what is responsible
for getting Bin Laden.
Obama was brought a solution on a silver platter, it was a offer he couldn't refuse.

9/12/2012 9:19:16 AM

^I totally agree with you, I was being sarcastic.

9/12/2012 9:26:13 AM

Ok, so the Obama administration deserves no credit for taking out Bin Laden. The glory all goes to Bush (2 years after he was out of office). That sounds like a totally rational and balanced opinion.

And what sort of action do you think Obama should take against the protesters? Would sending in 50 elite marines satisfy you? Or should we just drop bombs on the protesters' bunkers?

http://www.wral.com/news/story/11535622/

[Edited on September 12, 2012 at 10:38 AM. Reason : ]

9/12/2012 10:31:26 AM

I mean, if the reports are true about the pre-mission likely-hood of Osama being in the house (e.g. a good amount of doubt), I give him credit for having the balls to say yes to a dangerous covert op within a foreign nation. Yes, the logistics had been established long before Obama and in the end most of the credit goes to the people doing the daily work and seal team on this mission; but the credit is shared between administrations.

9/12/2012 10:45:59 AM

A)If the Osama raid had gone all Iran Embassy '79 you assholes would be blaming it on Obama. 'I give him credit for having the balls to say yes to a dangerous covert op within a nuclear armed foreign nation."

B)Bullet, I think that when you murder an ambassador you elevate beyond 'protester.' I think we should get military presence on the ground to secure any consulates and embassies and assist Libyan police with bringing the murderers to justice. We have to do something besides "strongly condemn."

[Edited on September 12, 2012 at 11:06 AM. Reason : .]

9/12/2012 11:03:25 AM

So, wait...why did we help "liberate" these people?

9/12/2012 11:08:31 AM

Quote :

"and assist Libyan police with bringing the murderers to justice."

i'm just wondering how you bring an angry mob of civilians like this to justice.

9/12/2012 11:27:03 AM

Quote :

"B)Bullet, I think that when you murder an ambassador you elevate beyond 'protester.' I think we should get military presence on the ground to secure any consulates and embassies and assist Libyan police with bringing the murderers to justice. We have to do something besides "strongly condemn.""

That's exactly what Obama is doing.

And let's not let the actions of a few criminal assholes distract from just how successful our intervention in Libya has been. It has hands down been the most well received action we've taken in the region ..... ever.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/libyans-now-like-america-slightly-more-than-do-canadians/261078/

Quote :

"According to the just-out poll, 54 percent of Libyans say they hold a favorable view of U.S. leadership. That's really high for the Middle East. How high? The poll suggests that Libyan views are about on par with Australians (who, at 56 percent, have a slightly more favorable view), Israelis (55 percent), and Canadians (at 53 percent, slightly less). That's good company."

The role of Islamists in their new government is also greatly diminished.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/10/world/la-fg-libya-islamists-20120710

Quote :

"The alliance, a coalition of about 60 political parties and 200 civil society groups, is seen as somewhat more progressive than its main Islamist rivals. In that regard, the Libyan vote played out differently than the one in Tunisia, where a moderate Islamist party captured a plurality in parliament, and Egypt, where voters chose the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate in a polarizing runoff against a candidate strongly identified with that nation's deposed secular leadership."

They have a democratic government chosen by free and fair elections. Their oil production is back to pre-war levels. They have the fastest growing economy in the world. The military action that led to this was backed by a UN mandate and carried out without a single US military casualty. It was an absolute masterstroke of foreign policy by Obama and is a stark contrast to the debacles carried out by the previous administration.

[Edited on September 12, 2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason : :]

9/12/2012 11:34:04 AM

Investigate crime. Prosecute crime.

Investigation includes gathering evidence. Not having been there myself, I don't know exactly what there is but surely there are people to interrogate, video evidence to analyze, physical evidence to collect, etc.

It wasn't an amorphous muslim blob that killed 4 Americans. It was specific people and they need to be brought to justice. Now if whatever excuse for a government the Libyans are currently running is complicit in these murders then of course that's a different story.

9/12/2012 11:36:31 AM

Quote :

"Investigate crime. Prosecute crime. Investigation includes gathering evidence. Not having been there myself, I don't know exactly what there is but surely there are people to interrogate, video evidence to analyze, physical evidence to collect, etc. It wasn't an amorphous muslim blob that killed 4 Americans. It was specific people and they need to be brought to justice. Now if whatever excuse for a government the Libyans are currently running is complicit in these murders then of course that's a different story."

This would have been prudent advice in the weeks and months following September 11th. What's a few trillion dollars between friends, though, right?

Careful, Libya. More democracy and freedom is coming your way, and as always, it will be delivered through the barrel of a gun.

9/12/2012 11:47:34 AM

let's not get confused folks. there are three different situations going on.

1) protests in Cairo due to the movie, which then the embassy sent out the rather poorly thought out press release
2) protests in Benghazi, also due to the movie
3) killing of an american ambassador and staff/security

while the protests are linked, i bet what will eventually come out (if they ever find the guys) is that they used the protests as an opportunity to take out the ambassador as a retaliation for the US encouraged NATO airstrikes against Libya months ago.

9/12/2012 11:48:46 AM

^^Not sure why you're talking to me like I declared war on "terror", but whatever.

^Yes, because Muslims pissed off about depictions of Muhammad have never killed anyone. Surely it wasn't that.

[Edited on September 12, 2012 at 11:50 AM. Reason : .]

9/12/2012 11:48:53 AM

what in gods green earth would their motivation have been for killing an american ambassador over a fucking movie with an RPG?!?!

going from rioting and rebelling to killing an american ambassador with an RPG is a big jump

but by all means, let's jump to every conclusion possible before an investigation is done

9/12/2012 11:52:32 AM

I'm just wondering why you'd take the time to try to distance muslim extremism from this when they have a history of killing people over depictions of Muhammad. Yes, we can't say for sure that it was the cause but it's not a stretch of the imagination or a huge jump.

Alternatively, we have a conspiracy to use the actual outrage of extreme muslims to a depiction of Muhammad as a coverup to killing several Americans in the same vicinity as the mob.

Actually, I have a pretty good guess why people are so quick to try to distance religion from shit like this or why the first words out of the President's mouth was " The United States is "a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others." instead of condemning the attack.

[Edited on September 12, 2012 at 12:00 PM. Reason : .]

9/12/2012 11:56:50 AM

Quote :

"^^Not sure why you're talking to me like I declared war on "terror", but whatever."

I'm not. I agree with the approach of treating crimes like crimes, rather than some separate tier called "terrorism" where rule of law and basic decency go out the window.

9/12/2012 12:03:15 PM

http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/press-releases/the-attack-on-the-us-consulate-was-a-planned-terrorist-assault-against-us-and-libyan-interests/

Quote :

" The military assault against the US Consulate in Benghazi should not be seen as part of a protest against a low budget film which was insulting Islam – there were just a few peaceful protesters present at the event. Indeed, there have been no other demonstrations regarding this film in Libya. We at Quilliam believe the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi was a well planned terrorist attack that would have occurred regardless of the demonstration, to serve another purpose. According to information obtained by Quilliam – from foreign sources and from within Benghazi – we have reason to believe that the attack on the US consulate in Benghazi came to avenge the death of Abu Yaya al-Libi, al-Qaeda’s second in command killed a few months ago. The reasons for this are as follows: 24 hours before this attack, none other than the leader of al-Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, released a video on Jihadist forums to mark the anniversary of 9/11. In this video, Zawahiri acknowledged the death of his second in command Abu Yahya and urged Libyans to avenge his killing. According to our sources, the attack was the work of roughly 20 militants, prepared for a military assault – it is rare that an RPG7 is present at a peaceful protest. According to our sources, the attack against the Consulate had two waves. The first attack led to US officials being evacuated from the consulate by Libyan security forces, only for the second wave to be launched against US officials after they were kept in a secure location. The weak security environment in Libya including in Benghazi and the failure of the government to project its power outside of the capital have been used as a cover for the attack. The failure to rebuild the defence and security sector, in an accountable, professional and responsible manner will only further the likelihood of such attacks in the future. Attacks in Benghazi are not new – the Red Cross has been attacked multiple times in previous months, as have the US consulate and also the UK Ambassador, and such security lapses encourage attacks. The International Community must take the challenge of not allowing extremist elements to hijack the Arab Uprisings very seriously, by renewing their focus on civic and governance responses to check the efforts of Islamist extremists attempting to exploit the inevitable security vacuum. Noman Benotman, President of Quilliam says: “These are acts committed by uncontrollable jihadist groups. We hope Libya will seize this opportunity to revive its policy of Disarmament, Demobilisation and Re-integration (DDR) in order to facilitate an end to the spread of such attacks, with the help of the International Community. We hope that the International Community, including NATO member states and especially the US, will continue their excellent work in Libya which began with the overthrow of the dictator Gaddafi after 42 years in power.”"

[Edited on September 12, 2012 at 12:03 PM. Reason : british think tank]

9/12/2012 12:03:17 PM

when was this movie made, when were the trailers released and where, and who is behind the movie?

9/12/2012 12:16:54 PM

i believe the trailers are online in english, someone dubbed them in arabic and posted them. the movie was made by an israeli and funded by a californian guy.

not sure when it was made though.

9/12/2012 12:18:08 PM

^^^If actually substantiated, then I take back my comments toward you. It would be convenient to stage an attack along protests.

9/12/2012 12:42:52 PM

Quote :

"We hope Libya will seize this opportunity to revive its policy of Disarmament, Demobilisation and Re-integration (DDR)"

NWO

9/12/2012 2:07:24 PM

Right, NWO

On another note, here's some more info on the film, and it looks like there's links to the youtube trailers. But yeah, it seems like it just may be a convenient excuse.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/innocence-muslims-film-sparked-deadly-u-embassy-attacks-142118931.html

[Edited on September 12, 2012 at 3:20 PM. Reason : link]

9/12/2012 3:13:40 PM

Quote :

"But yeah, it seems like it just may be a convenient excuse."

Sure looks that way and I believe it is. Funny how even they know how goddamn crazy they are, they knew the world would believe they'd kill over a movie...I guess it's because they have actually done that plus killed for no reason at all.

9/12/2012 3:51:41 PM

BREAKING NEWS: U.S. OFFICIALS SAY THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION IS INVESTIGATING WHETHER THE ASSAULT ON THE U.S. CONSULATE IN LIBYA WAS A PLANNED TERRORIST STRIKE TO MARK THE ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11 AND NOT A SPONTANEOUS MOB ENRAGED OVER AN ANTI-ISLAMIC YOUTUBE VIDEO.

9/12/2012 3:59:17 PM

They hate our values!

9/12/2012 5:37:48 PM

Then why don't they do something about it instead of us having to do something about it?

We police our Christian crazies; we burn their shit to the ground.

9/12/2012 5:42:02 PM

do you know that they're not doing anything about it?

9/12/2012 5:59:45 PM

Yep.

9/12/2012 6:19:14 PM

Obama knows how to take care of the situation.

Quote :

""We will not waver in our commitment to see that justice is done for this terrible act," President Barack Obama said. "And make no mistake, justice will be done." A senior U.S. official told CNN that American surveillance drones are expected to join the hunt for jihadists who may be tied to the attack. The drones are expected to gather intelligence that will be turned over to Libyan officials for strikes, the official said. But two American destroyers also are being moved toward the Libyan coast, two U.S. officials told CNN. Both the USS Laboon and USS McFaul are equipped with satellite-guided Tomahawk cruise missiles that can be programmed to hit specific targets. The move "will give the administration flexibility" in case the administration orders action against targets inside Libya, one senior official said. The McFaul was making a port call on Mediterranean island of Crete, while the Laboon was outside Gibraltar, a few days away from Libya./"

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/12/world/africa/libya-us-ambassador-killed/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

9/12/2012 8:41:43 PM

A)Less annoyed by the embassy comment now that I've learned the situation from which it was borne. It's PC garbage, but they felt threatened and were trying to diffuse the situation.
B)Still annoyed that Obama led off with "respect for faith" instead of "justice", but since then I'm liking what I'm hearing/seeing. I truly hope this ends with the perps being captured and extradited to the US for trial instead the inevitable drone strike or tomahawk.
C)Mitt Romney can eat a bag of dicks.
-Pinning what some diplomat on the other side of the planet, attempting to diffuse a very dangerous situation, on the President.
-Condemning the comment as apologizing to the attackers, when the comment came hours before a mob even formed in an entirely different country than the comment.
-Digging in his heels and not admitting his mistake.

If anyone's seriously entertaining this clown as our head of state after this, I question their objectivity.

[Edited on September 13, 2012 at 1:33 AM. Reason : head of state/commander in chief]

9/13/2012 1:17:50 AM

We need to get our people out of all the middle east embassies now.

9/13/2012 9:38:24 AM

No, the countries in which those embassies are located need to bust heads, like they have in Egypt and Yemen. Pulling embassies is a diplomatic punch to the crotch.

Ambassador Stevens was in a consulate instead of the embassy with no marine protection. I'm not blaming him in the least, but lack of security wasn't really the issue. Maybe lack of intelligence regarding the upcoming attack but you can't post a detachment of marines at every consulate.

Let me be clear; if there is any evidence or credible intelligence whatsoever supporting a foreign government being complicit in attacks on our embassies, that's an act of war and should be reacted to as such. Otherwise, we need to rely on the diplomatic trust which is the whole point of having embassies there in the first place.

[Edited on September 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM. Reason : .]

9/13/2012 10:37:41 AM

^

Quote :

"Let me be clear"

Sounding like Obama, man!

9/13/2012 11:07:26 AM