2

5/23/2011 2:28:43 PM

So when lobbyists get the government to do something you dislike, are you angry at the lobbyists or the interests they represent?

How could you possibly believe Christians honestly give a shit about the old testament? They eat anything and they do plenty of work on sunday. They don't make animal sacrifices. The bible is just an excuse for their own prejudices.

Their capacity for prejudice is the same as anyone else. It doesn't take religious reasoning for people to hate blacks, whites, immigrants, poor folks, rich folks, folks who aren't wearing silly hats, etc. They care about the same shit that "atheists" care about: "Not in my neighborhood!"

Christians have an excuse that allows them to embrace their homophobia publicly. Christan organizations are just doing what they're paid to do. There's always money to be made exploiting stupidity. Stop trying to treat the symptoms.

Are these analogies doing anything for you?

5/23/2011 2:40:01 PM

Quote :

"Hate can sometimes be quite logical. "

That's very debatable.

5/23/2011 2:41:48 PM

Quote :

"Nice little religioun you have there. However, the tenets seem a little too far fetched for non-believers to believe. Seriously, a bunch of made up labels from thousands of years ago are the only reason people consistently hate other people? Such a belief seems more far fetched than a flying spaghetti monster."

I think you may have missed something in the discussion, I can't figure out how your comment fits as a response to what he posted


wait, didn't see there was a page two. i think i get it.

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 2:54 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2011 2:53:30 PM

Quote :

"So when lobbyists get the government to do something you dislike, are you angry at the lobbyists or the interests they represent?"

A little from column A, a little from column B, and also the government itself. And it's not just "something I dislike", it's pass legislature limiting the rights of one group of persons over another group of persons.

Quote :

"How could you possibly believe Christians honestly give a shit about the old testament? They eat anything and they do plenty of work on sunday. They don't make animal sacrifices. The bible is just an excuse for their own prejudices."

It's a little naive to suggest that Christians don't care at all about the Old Testament. That and there is plenty of justification from the New Testament that homosexuality is wrong.

Quote :

"Christians have an excuse that allows them to embrace their homophobia publicly. Christan organizations are just doing what they're paid to do. There's always money to be made exploiting stupidity. Stop trying to treat the symptoms. "

You're right. It's the stupidity that's the problem. Stupid people believing stupid things and allowing themselves to be pandered to by exploitative politicians and lobbyists. I whole-heartedly agree.

5/23/2011 3:00:59 PM

Quote :

"It's a little naive to suggest that Christians don't care at all about the Old Testament. That and there is plenty of justification from the New Testament that homosexuality is wrong."

I could say it's naive to think Christians are so principled that they're hating gays because their religion says so.

5/23/2011 3:18:44 PM

Smart people can have stupid beliefs. A problem comes about when smart people, who gain credibility through their expertise in one area or another, convince others to believe stupid things.

5/23/2011 3:27:00 PM

^^If by "religion" you mean the words written in the Bible, I agree.
If by "religion" you mean the collection of beliefs gained from parents, church folks, and other friends loosely based on the words written in the Bible, then I disagree.

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 3:27 PM. Reason : ^^]

5/23/2011 3:27:28 PM

Quote :

"How could you possibly believe Christians honestly give a shit about the old testament? They eat anything and they do plenty of work on sunday. They don't make animal sacrifices. The bible is just an excuse for their own prejudices."

This shows a lack of understanding of how the NT relates to the OT.

Quote :

"They eat anything"

Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. 8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. 9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
Acts 11

Quote :

"they do plenty of work on sunday"

"And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."

Matthew 12

Quote :

"They don't make animal sacrifices"

Is this not straightforward enough? Jesus was the propitiation for all sin. Why would we mar the name of Christ by sacrificing animals? Would this not be an insult to our Lord?

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1 John 2:2

5/23/2011 4:15:15 PM

The New Testament never says to hate homosexuals. It only really mentions it a couple times that I can think of (Romans and 1st Timothy). One is more a comment on rampant fornication and the other just mentions sodomy in a letter.

I mean there is a reason most Christians ignore the old testament, because its not part of the covenant. They are not called to obey the laws and rules in the old testament. Thats the whol "Christ" part of "Christian"

5/23/2011 4:15:46 PM

Yeah, the NT doesn't say to hate anyone and I'd hope a true Christian would not hate a homosexual. I disapprove of the institution of homosexual marriage but I frown upon high ranking members of the Vatican more than homosexuals. I also don't see the difference between any non-saved person and a homosexual, there all without God.

Quote :

"I mean there is a reason most Christians ignore the old testament, because its not part of the covenant. They are not called to obey the laws and rules in the old testament. Thats the whol "Christ" part of "Christian""

Except:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Matthew 5:17-18

5/23/2011 4:21:27 PM

Exactly. The point is that God, at one point in time, told humans that they should stone gay humans to death. Did he really think that was justice? Or was it someone other than God that created that law? If it wasn't him wrote the law, then who did, and why should anyone believe anything else the Bible has to say?

5/23/2011 4:45:12 PM

1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Yeah, not referring to homosexuals directly in the least. Well, fuck, even if that were true, he's saying that fornicators are worthy of death (and I know maybe you interpret this as Hell or being permanently severed from God or whatever but who care's you're still judging) and homosexuals are obviously a subset of fornicators, right? Nah, that's not even relevant. 'Without natural affection' is undoubtedly referring to homosexuals.

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

5/23/2011 4:46:37 PM

Quote :

"The point is that God, at one point in time, told humans that they should stone gay humans to death. Did he really think that was justice?"

I've said this before, that passage was in reference to interactions within the tribe of Israel, and yes God said it was justice. Look what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

5/23/2011 4:47:52 PM

If that was true, then you would admit that killing gay people was justice. You're a better person than that, though. Like most Christians, your morality has outgrown your religion; you disregard the aspects of Christianity that starkly contrast with your sense of right and wrong.

5/23/2011 4:52:31 PM

Incoming "new covenant" bullshit.

5/23/2011 4:53:12 PM

Quote :

"Except: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-18"

you're actually reading that entirely wrong, but i don't feel like responding myself so i'm gonna cheat and google it for you:

The word "destroy" comes from the Greek word kataluo, which has the idea of: "destroy or dissolve.

Jesus said that he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. What does it mean to fulfill the law? The word "fulfill" is from the Greek word pleroo, which has a wide range of meanings:"satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfill, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply."

There are several ways in which Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament. Christ fulfilled the Law by obeying it perfectly, by carrying out every one of the righteous demands of the Law. On one occasion He asked, "Which one of you convicts Me of sin?" (John 8:46), to which no one responded affirmatively. He was the sinless Lamb of God and was without spot or blemish. Therefore, He fulfilled the Law by perfectly meeting its righteous demands.

Christ also fulfilled the Law by fulfilling all the types and prophecies of the Old Testament. All of the illustrations in the Old Testament sacrificial system focus on and find their fulfillment in Him. All of the prophecies given regarding the coming Messiah, His kingdom, and His salvation find their fulfillment in Him.

The ultimate way that Christ fulfilled the Old Testament Scriptures, the one which gets the greatest emphasis in the New Testament, is that He met the righteous demands of the Law in providing salvation through His death on the cross. Thus He has fulfilled the Law and brought it to completion by paying the penalty for our sins.

Again, if we look at Matthew's use of this word "fulfill" it will help us understand exactly what he means:

Matthew 1:21-23 (NKJV) "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Matthew 2:15 (NKJV) and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."
Matthew 2:17 (NKJV) Then was fulfilled [pleroo] what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying:
Matthew 2:23 (NKJV) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
Matthew 26:56 (NKJV) "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled [pleroo]." Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.
Seventeen times Matthew uses the word pleroo and in fifteen of them it clearly refers to prophecy being fulfilled or coming to pass. The law, which we read in the Old Testament and everything that has been said by the prophets, was going to be fulfilled by Jesus down to the minutest detail. And until it was all fulfilled, it was binding on the people of God.

The law has been fulfilled:

Hebrews 7:18 (NKJV) For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
This is truly an amazing statement. God is promising to set aside the Mosaic Law and the Levitical system. The word "annulling" is from the Greek verb athetesis. It is a legal term that points to the complete cancellation of the commandment in question - the Mosaic law. The same verb is used in 9:26 translated: "putting away".

Hebrews 9:26 (NKJV) He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away [athetesis] sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
The disappearance of the Mosaic law is as absolute as the putting away of sin.

The purpose of the Law is stated in Galatians 3 where it is indicated that the Law is to reveal our sinfulness and to serve as a tutor or schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Paul says in Galatians 3 that now that Christ has come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster. Now that Christ has come and the Law has been brought to its completion, the Law has been fulfilled in Christ:

Galatians 3:24-26 (NKJV) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Has the Law, the Old Covenant, been fulfilled in Christ? I don't know of any Christians who would say that every single Old Testament ceremonial law is still currently in force. Yet Jesus said that heaven and earth absolutely had to pass away before the slightest letter of the Law could be fulfilled. Thus, if the Law has been fulfilled, the heaven and earth Jesus spoke of must be already taken out of the way.

We can tell that Jesus obviously was NOT speaking of the literal earth He was standing on and the literal heavens He was standing under. If we understand heaven and earth in that passage to be physical, then the Law is still in effect, and we are all in big trouble. If we understand heaven and earth as figurative, then it is possible that they have passed along with the Law. We'll look at this next week.

Believer, I want you to understand that the law was a whole, and it was all in effect until it all passed away. Does this mean that we are free to do whatever we want? No, as believers we are not under the Old Covenant Law, but we are under the Law of Christ:

1 Corinthians 9:21 (NKJV) to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
Galatians 6:2 (NKJV) Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
The Old Covenant is over, and we are living in the New Covenant age. Jesus Christ is our Lord, and we are to live in a way that honors Him. We are to be salt and light.

5/23/2011 5:13:41 PM

so in conclusion, out with the old and in with the the new

5/23/2011 5:14:38 PM

Quote :

"The purpose of the Law is stated in Galatians 3 where it is indicated that the Law is to reveal our sinfulness and to serve as a tutor or schoolmaster to bring us to Christ."

Yes, I was defiantly wrong for oversimplifying by just posting the one passage. I guess I was responding more to the fact that the OT shouldn't be ignored. But the message you found on Google is mainly inline with my beliefs. Are you a saint rbrthwrd? You certainly have the understanding of one.

5/23/2011 5:38:56 PM

well i'm smarter than most of the posters on this board, so thats an understandable assumption

5/23/2011 5:55:06 PM

Quote :

"Christ fulfilled the Law by obeying it perfectly, by carrying out every one of the righteous demands of the Law."

My favorite parts of the Bible are when Jesus senses a homosexual in the vicinity and executes them promptly.

5/23/2011 5:57:20 PM

^^wow. just when I wasn't 100% convinced you are a prick.

Quote :

"We can tell that Jesus obviously was NOT speaking of the literal earth He was standing on and the literal heavens He was standing under."

Oh, I just love this logic. If something in the bible disagrees with me, OBVIOUSLY it's figurative.

Quote :

"Hebrews 7:18 (NKJV) For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,"

Yahweh creates laws that are weak and unprofitable? Interesting.

Sorry, the entire premise of your copypasta is that Jesus says shit he doesn't mean; and let's finish it by emphasizing that the important part here is to do exactly as Jesus says. This is worse than Harold Camping when he says "oh yes, it does say you can't know the hour... but what other passages can we find to support our idiotic beliefs?"

[Edited on May 23, 2011 at 7:14 PM. Reason : asdfadsf]

5/23/2011 6:48:49 PM

It's incredible how much more sense everything makes if you assume that there isn't actually a god and all that garbage really is just made up. You don't have to reconcile it with reality in the least.

5/23/2011 8:00:58 PM

I think a good solution would be to write an even newer testament that updated the rules a bit. A third testament, if you will. I'd volunteer to write it, but I have a hard time holding a pencil.

5/24/2011 1:25:25 AM

^I've never understood why Christians don't just throw away the old testament.

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
— Isaac Asimov

5/24/2011 5:55:10 AM

its still useful to christians, they just aren't called to follow the laws

5/24/2011 8:17:23 AM

The New Testament, part deux.

5/24/2011 8:42:52 AM

^^But they are!

Quote :

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Can you read?

Because it couldn't possibly state in plainer language that

1. Every Old Testament commandment is good FOREVER.
2. Those who follow said commandments get a big thumbs up from Jesus.

5/24/2011 8:49:08 AM

Quote :

"its still useful to christians, they just aren't called to follow the laws"

Right, all the crazy magical events from the OT are referenced by characters in the NT (Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind) and you can't have fulfilled prophesy without the prophesy, right?

See, people say that it would be an easier pill to swallow without the OT, but without the OT, the claim that Jesus is anything more than a wise man is even less "substantiated". I put it in quotes because it isn't actually substantiated even with the OT.

^Silly ETT, it isn't what's actually written in the Bible that matters, it's how they use the imaginary Holy Spirit to interpret the words to reconcile the words of thousands of year old desert nomads with modern morality.

[Edited on May 24, 2011 at 8:56 AM. Reason : .]

5/24/2011 8:51:23 AM

Page 2 and we're already debating the content of the bible.

Quote :

"If by "religion" you mean the collection of beliefs gained from parents, church folks, and other friends loosely based on the words written in the Bible, then I disagree."

There's definitely some anti-sodomy stuff in the bible, but it's just not enough to make someone care. Not without some motivation external to the bible, like plain hatin on weirdos. The fact that those feelings can be amplified by friends and family doesn't mean that the whole attitude stems from the bible.

5/24/2011 9:54:08 AM

Quote :

"Can you read? Because it couldn't possibly state in plainer language that"

I already responded to that. And I just picked the first google response because I've actually typed out a response before and it was ignored. There are, however, plenty more google responses I could google for you if you are interested. There is no shortage, considering that this is one of the basic ideas of Christianity.

Quote :

" ^Silly ETT, it isn't what's actually written in the Bible that matters, it's how they use the imaginary Holy Spirit to interpret the words to reconcile the words of thousands of year old desert nomads with modern morality."

um... you realize that the bible was not written in english, right?

[Edited on May 24, 2011 at 10:19 AM. Reason : ./]

5/24/2011 10:08:03 AM

Having an endless supply of terrible arguments does not help your case.

5/24/2011 10:20:54 AM

I'm not the one trying to take a scriptural argument without an understanding of the scripture.

5/24/2011 10:37:47 AM

Quote :

"Having an endless supply of terrible arguments does not help your case."

I declare EuroTitToss the winner.

Quote :

"um... you realize that the bible was not written in english, right?"

So you're saying you can pick up the original Greek manuscript and read it without having to know Greek? Or that the Holy Spirit magically fixes all the mistranslations and modifications that have occurred from the original manuscripts to whatever version you're reading? If that's the case, why do you even need a Bible in the first place? Can the Holy Spirit translate a restaurant menu into the word of God? None of this makes any damned sense!

5/24/2011 10:48:34 AM

theres probably tons of errors from translations and are definitely many things that are not clear because of translation.

5/24/2011 10:58:01 AM

And does the Holy Spirit make them clear? Can you demonstrate this? Like take a passage, show us the current version and then show us what Holy Spirit says it says? Then can we somehow externally verify that it was the original manuscript version in Greek? That part might be tough, but let's start somewhere.

5/24/2011 10:59:31 AM

you don't need the holy spirit to understand why the above verse was misread, the explanations are not based on any kind of mystical inspiration.

5/24/2011 11:05:13 AM

The concept of the new covenant is not lost on us, in fact, I called it before you even brought it.

I have yet to see how you reconcile this with Matthew 5:18-19 however. What exactly did Jesus mean when he said "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

I know you're convinced that he brought in new laws for you to follow, but this seems really unambiguous. Or does the English word 'great' turn into something else with some translational acrobatics?

5/24/2011 11:16:13 AM

in the sermon on the mount when they talk about all being accomplished or all being finished they are talking about the death of Christ. He was later crucified, proclaimed it is done, and brought about a new covenant. his death fulfilled the prophecy and Christians were no longer required to follow the old jewish law.

5/24/2011 11:35:26 AM

So instead of claiming that Jesus was mistaken in Matthew 5:18 about "Till heaven and earth pass" you think that he was speaking figuratively? Why?

You know what, I no longer care what anyone thinks is written in that book. It's not proven that Jesus even said any of that, that he had magical powers, or any of it.

[Edited on May 24, 2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason : .]

5/24/2011 12:11:22 PM

which is why its pretty silly for you all to get into a scriptural debate, and why i laugh every time you guys do

5/24/2011 12:30:32 PM

please keep the laughter confined to your sunday school pizza party.

5/24/2011 1:23:48 PM

The most hilarious thing here is the gospels were all written 30+ years after supposedly "all being accomplished."

So you're trying to convince us that the gospel writers are sitting there recording these really important teachings from Jesus that have been IRRELEVANT FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

Yea, makes a lot of sense.

5/25/2011 12:02:01 PM

i am doing no such thing

5/25/2011 12:28:57 PM

sure seems like it

5/25/2011 2:46:55 PM

show me where i made a claim about the accuracy of the bible

5/25/2011 6:58:12 PM

Quote :

"The purpose of the Law is stated in Galatians 3 where it is indicated that the Law is to reveal our sinfulness and to serve as a tutor or schoolmaster to bring us to Christ."

Saying that Christians aren't supposed to understand the law in the OT is not very... welll.... correct.

It's just that much of the Law regarding sacrifice and remission of sin was fulfilled in Christ, who was the sacrifice for all sin. The law is never made irrelevant and is often restated within the NT:

"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

Acts 15:29

The NT is more a clarification and revelation of things within the OT.


Now that I look back at some of the stuff that google search found I must say I disagree:

Quote :

"Believer, I want you to understand that the law was a whole, and it was all in effect until it all passed away. Does this mean that we are free to do whatever we want? No, as believers we are not under the Old Covenant Law, but we are under the Law of Christ"

As believers we are through faith sanctified in Christ, and the saints in the days of the OT were also sanctified in Christ in a manner. They were sanctified in the promise of the coming salvation given through God's word made manifest in time by Christ.

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call"
Joel 2:32

"5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. "

Galatians 3

We can see here that the Israelites were never saved by works but by faith, for what man among them could keep the whole of the Law?

The large change between the OT and the NT is that the Mosiac covenant and the New Covenant but in my opinion the most important command of the law God ever gives is:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:"

Exodus 19:5

And the New Covenant removes believers from being under the law:

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

Galatians 5:18

However, the purpose of the law is still clear:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin"

Romans 3:20

So the law serves as a guide to what sin, so it should still be understood and iniquity should be avoided so that the Church is not marred on Earth and so that God's voice is heeded. Even though believers are "dead to sin" by having the Spirit of God.

Phew. That's quite complicated isn't it?

TL,DR:

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

5/25/2011 7:33:09 PM

So you do or do not believe that wearing mixed fibers is an abomination?

5/25/2011 8:38:26 PM

Who am I too judge?

5/25/2011 10:17:21 PM

It is an abomination. Nothing touches my skin but silk.

That said, you can't really punish a shirt for being an abomination.

5/26/2011 12:29:08 AM