6/29/2011 8:33:15 PM

So this thread isn't really for non-believers to ask questions about Christianity because you're talking like Scripture is a given, that the Holy Spirit is a given, that personal revelation is more than delusion.

I know that's what you believe, but these are hardly proven for if they were there would be no non-believers.

So, if the conversation cannot be about the veracity of the claims of the Bible, then it's just a Christian circle-jerk where you get to quibble over nuances of stories which have no basis in reality. May I ask what your intended purpose for this thread was exactly? The title and OP are quite vague.

Quote :

"I disagree that things are as black and white as you say."

I wanted to address this earlier but forgot. When it comes to the truth-value of claim (like there was a world-wide flood, the Earth is 6000 years old, a man died and came back to life and committed miracles) it is black and white. Either the claim is false or it is true. Whether you are justified in believing a claim is what is truly in question. Faith does not justify belief.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 1:05 AM. Reason : .]

6/30/2011 1:01:34 AM

Quote :

"Why does God create people just to send them to hell? Seems like a dick move to me."

I wanted to expound on my original question, so here goes. God created man and gave him free will so that when man does choose to worship God it makes God happy and gives him warm fuzzies, right? I just wanted to state that this seems pathetic and childish (lol joke about using human terms to describe omnipotent god or whatever). Seems to me like God is just a big bully who loves to make our lives miserable and see how much shit he can give us and still have us pretend like he is super awesome. Job exemplifies my point.

6/30/2011 1:16:23 AM

Quote :

"So this thread isn't really for non-believers to ask questions about Christianity because you're talking like Scripture is a given, that the Holy Spirit is a given, that personal revelation is more than delusion."

I guess Questions about the Bible would have been a better title for the thread.

Quote :

"I wanted to address this earlier but forgot. When it comes to the truth-value of claim (like there was a world-wide flood, the Earth is 6000 years old, a man died and came back to life and committed miracles) it is black and white. Either the claim is false or it is true. Whether you are justified in believing a claim is what is truly in question. Faith does not justify belief."

I'm not looking to justify my belief.

"18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. "

John 15

Unless you were saved as well, I could never justify my belief with you. It is not a matter of anything having to do with your ability to reason, it is in understanding things of the spirit.


"The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding."

Proverbs 9:10

I don't argue about many points because I can't justify faith in Christ to someone who is not saved. I mean Christ himself went about preaching glad tidings, and Paul after him, and not everyone who heard heeded. All I'm doing here is spreading the word and trying to clear up some misconceptions other Christians have. And eventually I'll get around to the "problem of evil" and other questions.

6/30/2011 1:24:20 AM

Quote :

"Do you believe that free will of humanity and an omnipotent god are compatible concepts?"

Quote :

"Yes, but it is difficult to understand the compatibility, due to the fact that eternity cannot be understood and exists outside of time."

Quote :

"I don't see how it's hard to understand the compatibility. God knows our future actions, according to the Bible. If God knows our future actions, they must be pre-determined."

still hasn't been addressed

6/30/2011 1:45:47 AM

Quote :

"Unless you were saved as well, I could never justify my belief with you. It is not a matter of anything having to do with your ability to reason, it is in understanding things of the spirit. "

And you must realize that this reads as nonsense to everyone but you. What if I were to say that I know the truth about the Universe and it was revealed to me by aliens which will only communicate through me? Would you have any reason whatsoever to believe me?

Now, fast forward 2000 years. Tradition has convinced millions of people that such aliens exist and can communicate with you if you really really believe. Is the claim more believable?

Finally, kindly demonstrate anything that can reasonably be described as "of the spirit."

Also, AronRa points out a fundamental incongruity between the prospect of an ultimate god and the holy texts we see today:

Quote :

"If there really was one true god, it should be a singular composite of every religion’s gods, an uber-galactic super-genius, and the ultimate entity of the entire cosmos. If a being of that magnitude ever wrote a book, then there would only be one such document; one book of God. It would be dominant everywhere in the world with no predecessors or parallels or alternatives in any language, because mere human authors couldn’t possibly compete with it. And you wouldn’t need faith to believe it, because it would be consistent with all evidence and demonstrably true, revealing profound morality and wisdom far beyond contemporary human capacity. It would invariably inspire a unity of common belief for every reader. If God wrote it, we could expect no less. But what we see instead is the very opposite of that. "

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 2:12 AM. Reason : aronra]

6/30/2011 2:02:01 AM

Quote :

"And you must realize that this reads as nonsense to everyone but you."

I am aware people feel that way.

Quote :

"Tradition has convinced millions of people that such aliens exist and can communicate with you if you really really believe. Is the claim more believable?"

Are you saying that tradition has convinced me to believe in Christ? I assure you this is not the case. If I went by many "traditional Christian doctrines" I would be a polytheist. You make it seem like the 33% or w/e the percentage of self professed Christians are all part of some big scam where they all believe the exact same thing.

Quote :

"Finally, kindly demonstrate anything that can reasonably be described as "of the spirit.""

Have you ever felt guilty about doing something you know to be wrong?

I'll get to your questions soon swim. Won't answer the first since it is rhetorical. And I'll take on the harrowing task of trying to understand and explain eternity.

6/30/2011 2:20:00 AM

Quote :

"Are you saying that tradition has convinced me to believe in Christ? I assure you this is not the case. If I went by many "traditional Christian doctrines" I would be a polytheist. You make it seem like the 33% or w/e the percentage of self professed Christians are all part of some big scam where they all believe the exact same thing."

No, 100% of theists are all part of a scam where they all believe a subset of the exact same delusion (that something should believed to exist which cannot be proven).

Tradition convinced you that faith is virtuous and that there exists a supernatural plane of which there is no proof nor hope of demonstration.

Quote :

"Have you ever felt guilty about doing something you know to be wrong?"

Um.. Yes? This is demonstrable of "things of the spirit" in what way exactly? My understanding is that human emotions are a product of my physical brain. Medical evidence supports this conclusion. There is no evidence of any sort of interaction with our physical bodies and a spirit or any other non-observable things.

Quote :

"Won't answer the first since it is rhetorical. "

It's not rhetorical. It's a yes or no question (but now that I look I think you already answered "yes" but haven't explained how you reconcile the paradox yet).


[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 2:45 AM. Reason : .]

6/30/2011 2:33:34 AM

Quote :

"Are you saying that tradition has convinced me to believe in Christ? I assure you this is not the case. If I went by many "traditional Christian doctrines" I would be a polytheist. You make it seem like the 33% or w/e the percentage of self professed Christians are all part of some big scam where they all believe the exact same thing."

No, it's exactly the opposite. Even within denominations, views on particular biblical "issues" are often in dispute. Christianity isn't really one religion, it's a whole bunch of religions, because each person has their own version of it. That's part of the reason religion is impossible to take seriously. If there isn't even agreement on the particulars from people that have supposedly read the bible and taken its teachings to heart, why should I take any of it as absolute knowledge? It seems pretty up in the air.

If there's one thing that church taught me, it's how to bullshit. When you're saying a prayer, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You're spouting nonsense, talking about God as if he's right there in the room. It's just silly.

6/30/2011 2:36:30 AM

Quote :

"It is not a matter of anything having to do with your ability to reason, it is in understanding things of the spirit."

This, my friends, is why I identify myself to be ignositc. It always comes down to this...

6/30/2011 9:32:11 AM

Today's SMBC is especially relevant, and it pretty much nails my take on religion



[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 10:46 AM. Reason : .]

6/30/2011 10:44:29 AM

Nice. I thankfully don't have a problem understanding that we're a lowly primate species on an inconsequential rock in an inconsequential star system part of a galaxy containing 400 billion other stars in a Universe containing 80 billion galaxies.

I think it's pretty cool that I managed to type this and other primates manage to read it.

6/30/2011 11:06:24 AM

There are very stark and obvious limitations to the mediocrity principle.

Look back in time, we're were either completely unique in hosting complex life or just one of many planets scattered throughout the galaxy hosting life that's complex but has no strong prospects of ever venturing into space. There is a strong case that there either has been or will be a strong divergence of the human race from most of the matter in the universe in terms of qualities that we care about.

The idea that a knowledge-based discourse about our place in the universe can not provide some form of "spiritual" fulfillment is, to put it bluntly, stupid. The spiritual community makes the word a moving target, which they have no right to do. They say that THEY are spiritual, but anything that you can come up with pertaining to the lonely universe observation isn't. It's just a problem with word choice, it's not "spiritual" that accurately describes this particular aspect of religion, "douche bag" would be much closer.

6/30/2011 11:17:48 AM

Quote :

"Look back in time, we're were either completely unique in hosting complex life or just one of many planets scattered throughout the galaxy hosting life that's complex but has no strong prospects of ever venturing into space. "

What are you talking about? The mediocrity principle has a far stronger case than the notion that we're unique.

6/30/2011 11:36:13 AM

Quote :

"What are you talking about? The mediocrity principle has a far stronger case than the notion that we're unique."

Your language makes absolutely no sense. The mediocrity principle is something that infers that we are not unique (if that wasn't obvious). That it makes a "stronger case than the notion that we're unique" is nonsensical b/c it makes the opposite case. It makes a stronger case than the case it doesn't make? wtg...

6/30/2011 11:50:05 AM

love that cartoon, haha.

what is the human preoccupation with being alone in the universe?

id like that movie "contact" if it didnt bring this shit up constantly.

also, my dislike of religion stems directly from the phrase "god-fearing."

FUCK THAT. the only things im afraid of are terminal diseases and ticks. the ideal God should be the least of your worries...

and why am i supposed to wear nice clothes to church? thats a stupid rule imo.

6/30/2011 12:01:42 PM

My question: What does the Bible say about aliens, and if they do end up existing, I'm assuming none of them can get into heaven?

6/30/2011 12:12:03 PM

I'd still like to hear more about the earth only being ~6,000 years old.

Ignoring decades of peer reviewed scientific research in favor of a collection of fictional stories written 2,000+ years ago.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 12:45 PM. Reason : .]

6/30/2011 12:34:59 PM

I'm done here.

6/30/2011 12:57:06 PM

^
Translation: "I am unable to support my claims with factual evidence."

6/30/2011 1:03:39 PM

This was a fun thread.

6/30/2011 1:04:38 PM

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do"

6/30/2011 1:05:23 PM

Quote :

"Your language makes absolutely no sense. The mediocrity principle is something that infers that we are not unique (if that wasn't obvious). That it makes a "stronger case than the notion that we're unique" is nonsensical b/c it makes the opposite case. It makes a stronger case than the case it doesn't make? wtg..."

The Mediocrity Principle relies only on known facts and reasoning. It does not require evidence beyond what we can already observe.

To suggest that complex life is universally unique to earth is ridiculous and there is no evidence to support it.

6/30/2011 1:07:24 PM

Well like I was saying, the purpose of the thread was unclear. Naming it "Questions about Christianity" seemed to be inviting non-believers to ask questions about what they think is wrong about the Bible, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Maybe The E Man will return and address some points, though I was enjoying having both a bible literalist and a bible cherry picker to see the different Christian perspectives address particular issues.

I was interested to hearing how human emotion implied spirituality, but oh well.

Quote :

"To suggest that complex life is universally unique to earth is ridiculous and there is no evidence to support it."

Well of course we can't conclusively conclude either way, but you can say that the likelihood that we're the only complex life in the universe is so vanishingly small that to believe so is ridiculous.

However, don't forget that we've only been sentient beings for an extremely small slice of the history of the Universe and it's a very big Universe. Even if space-faring intelligent beings actually have traveled the stars (who knows how likely, it could be that all species knock themselves out before getting this far) the likelihood that they visited this rock when we had the brains to matter is also vanishingly small.

Given the age of the Universe, if you grant that there has been a species of sufficiently advanced technology that they could do a branching search of every star system in our Galaxy, then they almost certainly did so a long time ago.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 1:17 PM. Reason : .]

6/30/2011 1:12:51 PM

LeonIsPro

You're quoting scripture like it means something to us. Try to keep the Star Trek rule in mind:

Quote :

"The Star Trek Rule is this: Before quoting the Bible to atheists, always ask yourself whether the same statement would be just as effective in your mind if you were quoting Captain Kirk. If the answer is "yes," then you may be making a good point that people will listen to. If the answer is "no," then you are probably trying to rely on the Bible as something that people will regard as credible in its own right... and atheists, because we are blind to the merits of the Bible, will miss the point. So I'm going to repeat the words with which I started: learn how to make your own damn arguments. Just figure it out. If CS Lewis and Lee Strobel can do it, then you can too. It's not some magical superpower, it's just putting your own thoughts in order and then explaining them. If you must quote from the Bible (and frankly I haven't seen many situations where it makes any difference) then at least use your own words to tell us why we, who believe the Bible is no more credible than Star Trek, should give a hoot about that particular chapter and verse."

6/30/2011 1:18:18 PM

If The E Man comes back or if I get a sense the questions are going to something other than troll questions or the same question asked 7 times, I'll start posting again. And I guess I still need to answer those questions from page 1 by Swim.

^When I quoted scripture I was making my own arguments. Hence the commentary afterwards.


I take my arguments from scriptural commentary, you take your arguments from worldly commentary. I fail to see the difference in assembly. Besides the source.


[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 1:23 PM. Reason : ]

6/30/2011 1:18:58 PM

Quote :

""Father forgive them, for they know not what they do""

Worldly commentary? Do you mean to say reality?

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 1:27 PM. Reason : sgf]

6/30/2011 1:26:37 PM

Do you believe Allah and God are the same?

6/30/2011 1:28:40 PM

^^No I mean social norms and the manner you were subjected to things when you were raised.

^I think Muhammad was a false prophet, and though he attempted to establish a religion based on Jehovah he was not divinely inspired.

6/30/2011 1:32:44 PM

^Social norms and the way I was raised? Are you joking? The vast majority of people in the US are christian. Atheists are one of the least trusted groups in this country. I was raised christian. My entire family is christian.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 1:39 PM. Reason : asfasf]

6/30/2011 1:37:58 PM

Quote :

"The vast majority of people in the US are christian. Atheists are one of the least trusted groups in this country. I was raised christian. My entire family is christian."

Did you miss my previous post?

Not everyone who says their Christian is saved. Do you know how many denominational churches parade around as Christian while practicing neopagan worship? Probably somewhere around or over 50%.
So here is the million dollar question. What denomination is your family?

6/30/2011 1:42:02 PM

How do you know you're interpreting the Bible correctly and other denominations are not?

6/30/2011 1:50:32 PM

Well if you could find me a spot in the Bible where it says there should be priests, or priests could forgive sins. Or anyone other than Christ could forgive sins. The only reason all these denominations get to parade around as Christians is because no one actually reads the Bible anymore they just trust w/e their pastor/priest/religious leader says. And their priest/leader/pastor just regurgitates what their predecessor says and this continues until the truth is further and further off. That is not to say that some off each denomination don't actually know what their talking about.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 1:58 PM. Reason : had to add for clarity]

6/30/2011 1:55:32 PM

Quote :

"To suggest that complex life is universally unique to earth is ridiculous and there is no evidence to support it."

I never suggested such. For further clarification, my position is that we don't yet know how prevalent complex life is.

The only thing we have is reasonably solid evidence to say that the number of independently evolved lineages of complex life existing in this exact solar system (extending to our close neighbors to a weaker extent thanks to SETI) is exactly one.

6/30/2011 2:03:48 PM

Quote :

"Did you miss my previous post? Not everyone who says their Christian is saved. Do you know how many denominational churches parade around as Christian while practicing neopagan worship? Probably somewhere around or over 50%. So here is the million dollar question. What denomination is your family?"

Dude. What does the denomination of my family have to do with my own personal preference for appreciating reason, science, and evidence?

6/30/2011 2:17:24 PM

It effects this:

Quote :

"I was raised christian. My entire family is christian."

I'm not sure why your so defensive. It's not like if you say there Catholic I'm going to say: well then there going to hell!!. I can't determine whether your family is actually saved or not. Only God can do that. But you could tell me the denomination so I could understand where your coming from with the above statement.

Now please, do tell me. If you'd like to know my "denomination" it's associated with Assembly Brethren, but I would go to any chapel that preaches the gospel.

6/30/2011 2:30:07 PM

My family consists of baptists and catholics on different sides. I don't see what that has to do with arguments I bring into this thread, since I am neither.

You implied that my thinking was a result of my upbringing/society and I just find that laughable. Isn't it plainly obvious that my family/country would prefer that I was a theist?

6/30/2011 2:40:03 PM

Quote :

"Isn't it plainly obvious that my family/country would prefer that I was a theist?"

And if you were a theist? What would that make you? Am I a theist?

Satanists are theist, Muslims are theists, Jews are theists, Golden Dawn are theists, Gnostics are theists. Plenty of theists in the world, not as many saints.

6/30/2011 2:48:03 PM

well then there going to hell!!

Amen! Going to hell right there!

6/30/2011 2:48:35 PM

Quote :

"I never suggested such. For further clarification, my position is that we don't yet know how prevalent complex life is."

Did you not just post this:

Quote :

"There are very stark and obvious limitations to the mediocrity principle. Look back in time, we're were either completely unique in hosting complex life or just one of many planets scattered throughout the galaxy hosting life that's complex but has no strong prospects of ever venturing into space."

Yours is the language that doesn't make sense.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 2:49 PM. Reason : .]

6/30/2011 2:49:15 PM

^^That was a rhetorical device. I have never in my life said that to a person. And if I ever do my sin be on my own head.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 2:50 PM. Reason : ]

6/30/2011 2:50:11 PM

We are the pure and chosen few
and all the rest are damned.
There's room enough in hell for you,
we don't want heaven crammed

6/30/2011 2:50:51 PM

And they say the Christians are unreasonable, when all the self proclaimed "thinkers" do is mock the things I say.

6/30/2011 2:55:57 PM

Quote :

"The only reason all these denominations get to parade around as Christians is because no one actually reads the Bible anymore they just trust w/e their pastor/priest/religious leader says."

I am in 100% agreement with LeonIsPro, but he's omitting*why* there are so many "Christians" that don't read the Bible.

The Bible doesn't make sense at all taken literally and you have to disconnect your brain entirely from reality (like not believing in radiometric dating despite having a degree in Chemistry) in order to accept it as literal truth. Or you have to compartmentalize (Like the E Man and most "Christians" do) and say well, a world wide flood definitely never happened but I sure do believe a person could be born of a virgin, die, and then come back 3 days later and be a wizard!

It's not that the Bible is particularly cryptic or unreadable (well parts) it's that the moral teachings are actually disagreeable with modern society. Christianity in general has chosen to excise some of it to make it an easier pill to swallow.

But Leon has it right. Contemporary Christians generally don't even follow the words in the Gospels, let alone Paul's misogynistic letters to the Ephesians. (and I'm thankful for that)

6/30/2011 3:00:16 PM

Quote :

"^^That was a rhetorical device. I have never in my life said that to a person. And if I ever do my sin be on my own head."

Totally understandable, their are lots of rhetorical devices in the English language.

[Edited on June 30, 2011 at 3:03 PM. Reason : ]

6/30/2011 3:03:00 PM

Quote :

"Paul's misogynistic letters to the Ephesians."

I'll address this later since it directly relates to scripture. Did you want to pull some examples in advance?

6/30/2011 3:04:06 PM

So seriously, if there are aliens, does that mean scripture is wrong?

6/30/2011 3:12:34 PM

Quote :

"So seriously, if there are aliens, does that mean scripture is wrong?"

Some people postulate that a deception will cause the rapture to appear to be "aliens" so as to justify the disappearance of some people. I would discount anything "alien" as mere deception.

6/30/2011 3:17:27 PM

[quote]
5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. "So ought men to love their wives."
5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

In included the little rider about loving your wife while she submits to you in case you thought I was cherry-picking.

6/30/2011 3:18:39 PM

You should never have to worry about cherry picking. Wouldn't be the word of God if you had to. I'll address those and the whole of Ephesians when I get off work.

6/30/2011 3:28:51 PM