I know the solution, but it's too harsh for Americans.

Command and Conquer.


We need to go in there and be strict.

We build architecture. Everyone gets to use it.
We teach to respect the architecture and to maintain it.
We teach agriculture. Everyone gets to use it.
We teach to respect the agriculture and to maintain it.
Everyone who can work, will work.
The more work you put in, the more you get back.
You don't work you don't get nothing.
Everyone has the right to pursue happiness.
Tolerance and respect of race, religion, age, and disability will be taught and enforced.
Respect will be taught and enforced.
Stealing, Killing, Lying should not be tolerated.
Governments will be banned from giving AID.
AID can come in the form of personal donations.
Resistance from rebels must be met with deadly force. They are a disease.

Once a society is established, then we can THINK about an unenforced society. This is the quickest way to get Africa up to the rest of the world's standards. You're just wasting your time with anything else.

Even America has laws and rules and police to enforce laws that promote the well being of humanity. It's only been the Bush Administration that's repealed many of the laws that promote society and replaced them with toxic policies.

Teenagers kick and cry when they're forced to obey household rules, but it's tough love. It's completely necessary to maintain order in an otherwise chaotic system without rules.

[Edited on July 29, 2011 at 7:28 PM. Reason : .]

7/29/2011 7:24:25 PM

^ i agree with that, but we all know it will never happen like that, for several reasons.

(it *could* happen like that if the somali alqaeda rebels attack the US and the US goes in)

7/29/2011 7:35:13 PM

^^ Welcome to imperialism.

Guess what? It doesn't work either. At least not in a term that is economically sustainable. The British and Spanish did this over centuries, and as soon as they left, everything went back to the way it had been before.

And I fucking hate people like GoldenGirl. Saying "I'm just spreading awareness, I'm not saying to donate money" is just bullshit. The ONLY reason people bring awareness to causes, is to get support (aka resources, aka money) donated towards said cause.

For once GeniusBoy is right here. The phenomenon is called imperialism. We think "oh we have it so good, we should make everyone else like us, and they'll be happy then". Except it never works, and the people end up worse than they started.

The best monetary contribution you can give to any ailing civilization is micro-finance for domestic business. The best volunteer effort is to embed, embrace and effect micro-change in local communities. Large scale efforts end in large scale clusterfucks.

I think it's the natural inclination of women to think empathetically, my fiance and I have fought over this same issue. Even after showing her the data, she still doesn't get that donating money to all these causes does much more to alleviate her own guilt than it does some poor person's condition.

7/29/2011 10:52:37 PM

donating money isn't the only thing you can do. there are lots of others. and yes its only a short term solution but I've been working with NGOs that support long term infrastructure building including micro financing. So before you start to judge me and make this about me its not. I made this thread b/c its an emerging problem that people don't yet know much about and isn't getting the needed media attention because things like our debt crisis.

Yes we do have a responsibility for those living in poverty in the states but as a human being we also do have a call to help those outside our own borders ( Heaven Forbid!)

Once again no where did i say donate money or agree with my beliefs. We can agree to disagree.

[Edited on July 29, 2011 at 11:12 PM. Reason : s]

7/29/2011 11:12:19 PM

Quote :

"The best monetary contribution you can give to any ailing civilization is micro-finance for domestic business. The best volunteer effort is to embed, embrace and effect micro-change in local communities. Large scale efforts end in large scale clusterfucks."

I like the Micro-Finance philosophy. Unfortunately, it is administered by the West, with nearly ambivalent results.... My point is, it's not easy for the developing world to just suddenly birth the idea of micro-finance.

7/29/2011 11:19:29 PM

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/157/can-this-man-save-this-girl

good read on water shortage in Africa (as well as clean water shortage around the globe), why some of the project did not yield the expected results, and the proposed approaches that involve local community which may be sustainable

7/29/2011 11:26:16 PM

^ No system, no matter how simple, can be sustained by poor people. The only solution that can ever work is to end their poverty, however you do it. Maybe China can pull it off through the rebirth of colonialism they have engendered. But I'm not hopeful.

The only thing we know for sure that will work is to move the people out of Africa onto some other Continent. Even South America would be an improvement.

[Edited on July 30, 2011 at 12:16 AM. Reason : .,.]

7/30/2011 12:15:58 AM

Quote :

"Unfortunately, it is administered by the West, with nearly ambivalent results.... My point is, it's not easy for the developing world to just suddenly birth the idea of micro-finance."

Actually, the most successful ones aren't. They are run by local co-ops. Western investors are completely silent in the process.

And Micro-Finance has been insanely successful in Africa. The YoY growth and ROI have been in the 1000% ranges.

Quote :

"donating money isn't the only thing you can do. there are lots of others. and yes its only a short term solution but I've been working with NGOs that support long term infrastructure building including micro financing. So before you start to judge me and make this about me its not. I made this thread b/c its an emerging problem that people don't yet know much about and isn't getting the needed media attention because things like our debt crisis. "

What others? You tell me what these "lots of others" things are that aren't complete disasters that I can do. Infrastructure building only works in stable areas where the infrastructure isn't going to be immediately stolen and abused. Building roads and schools just gives gangs and rebels easier ways to transport guns and troops.

Why does it need media attention? You still haven't told me why, when there's NOTHING we can effectively do as a long term solution, and nothing that won't make these people even more dependent on constant aid that we can do in the short term. So why should the media be focusing attention on something we can't do shit about, rather than the national debt, jobs, and our fucked banking industry... all of which we CAN do something about?

7/30/2011 2:59:08 AM

To reply here to GoldenGirl's PM accusing me of trolling:

1) I don't troll
2) This is the lounge
3) Don't get butthurt because you don't know what you're talking about

I'm not cold hearted. I'm just not stupid. If I'm going to commit time/energy/anything to helping someone, I want to make sure it's worthwhile.

I do plenty of volunteer work and support charitable organizations. Just not the ones that throw away money with colonialist white-guilt "save the primitives" bullshit.

Unlike Genius, I care. Unlike you, I actually use my brain WITH my heart.

7/30/2011 3:23:23 AM

^He's right. I don't care. I can't think of anything that could make me care either.
It's kinda like dealing with turmoil in the middle east. It's reason for fighting is retarded and the answer to peace is right under everyone's noses.

[Edited on July 30, 2011 at 4:56 AM. Reason : .]

7/30/2011 4:55:13 AM

Quote :

"I like the Micro-Finance philosophy. Unfortunately, it is administered by the West, with nearly ambivalent results.... My point is, it's not easy for the developing world to just suddenly birth the idea of micro-finance."

Dude, do you even know about this legend?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Yunus

7/30/2011 5:44:51 AM

Nice

Quote :

"[quote] "If I'm going to commit time/energy/anything to helping someone, I want to make sure it's worthwhile.""

is what your beliefs are then i feel sorry for you. This is not thinking with your head and your heart. that's called thinking with your head. to me saving a life in an emergency situation is not a cure all but is worth it. its a human life. get over yourself and take a step back and look at what is really going on out there and not in your little bubble. [/quote]

A single human life to me IS worth it. get off your high horse and stop projecting what your fiance things/ reacts to these situations on me. Take it up with her.

and again NO one is talking about charity here. you Love to pull shit out of thin air to argue about. The only pt. you are right on: this is the lounge, NOT SOAPBOX TAKE IT TO SOAPBOX

/end of wasting my breathe on Neon's judgmental behavior & lack of respect for human dignity.

7/30/2011 12:21:04 PM

You girls are always tell us guys to stop thinking with our dicks and use our brains.
Well here is us guys telling you girls to stop thinking with your heart and use your brains.


Your hearts get you into as much pointless, needless drama as our penises.

7/30/2011 12:47:53 PM

just shut the fuck up, man

7/30/2011 1:14:59 PM

Quote :

"to me saving a life in an emergency situation is not a cure all but is worth it. its a human life. "

But they will end right back up in the same situation they are in now. You can't save everyone.

All your "help" is being done for the wrong reasons. If you're so concerned with their lives and you really want to help, then get your ass over there.

7/30/2011 1:36:20 PM

East africa is more or less caught in a Malthusian trap and will be so as long as economic development is abysmal.

Famine has occurred in the region in '72/72, 84/85, 91/92, 98-00, 03, 06-08, 10/11. Yet the population keeps on exploding. Most foreign aid just ensures millions more will be at risk for famine during the next drought in a few years. It's a pretty hopeless situation.

7/30/2011 3:02:49 PM

they should have sterilization drugs included in their UN food rations.

7/30/2011 3:30:23 PM

From the thread (http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=614203) I linked I earlier:

Quote :

"SPIEGEL: Even in a country like Kenya, people are starving to death each year. Someone has got to help them. Shikwati: But it has to be the Kenyans themselves who help these people. When there's a drought in a region of Kenya, our corrupt politicians reflexively cry out for more help. This call then reaches the United Nations World Food Program -- which is a massive agency of apparatchiks who are in the absurd situation of, on the one hand, being dedicated to the fight against hunger while, on the other hand, being faced with unemployment were hunger actually eliminated."

Quote :

"SPIEGEL: ... corn that predominantly comes from highly-subsidized European and American farmers ... Shikwati: ... and at some point, this corn ends up in the harbor of Mombasa. A portion of the corn often goes directly into the hands of unsrupulous politicians who then pass it on to their own tribe to boost their next election campaign. Another portion of the shipment ends up on the black market where the corn is dumped at extremely low prices. Local farmers may as well put down their hoes right away; no one can compete with the UN's World Food Program."

These countries need to be able to build a sustainable economy on their own. Shipping in goods prevents them from doing that.

7/30/2011 3:53:20 PM

i was planning on donating... but maybe i won't anymore.

don't know, i am torn and confused.

7/30/2011 4:02:55 PM

Quote :

"Based on the rating criteria of the American Institute of Philanthropy, Feed The Children receives an "F" rating for financial efficiency for spending only 21-23 percent of its cash budget on charitable programs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_The_Children"

Just realize that for every $1 you donate to a charity, less then 25 cents actually gets used for charity.

7/30/2011 4:12:14 PM

Quote :

"Dude, do you even know about this legend? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Yunus"

You beat me to it

^ Depends on the charity.

[Edited on July 30, 2011 at 4:12 PM. Reason : a]

7/30/2011 4:12:29 PM

Or does it?

7/30/2011 4:18:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN7ehccspao

7/30/2011 4:21:14 PM

everyone in america is smart

everyone in africa is stupid

7/30/2011 4:21:43 PM

85% of Doctors Without Borders expenditures go directly into their charitable operations so yeah, it does depend on the charity

7/30/2011 4:29:30 PM

^ only 85% that's kinda low. I know of a few that 93-95% goes directly to who they serve and not admin or fundraising.

7/30/2011 5:21:36 PM

My charity's better than your charity contest 2011

7/30/2011 7:42:39 PM

First off, I think a lot of the negative comments in here are ultimately unhelpful. If people who are actually not supportive of certain efforts to change things in Africa are really concerned about efficiency, then they say their piece and then don't feel the need to keep telling those who are attempting to raise awareness or donate how stupid they are. If you don't want to be part of it, that's cool, and I think everyone can at the very least respect your decision, but there isn't any logic to shitting all over someone else for how they choose to get involved.

If you provide some evidence about how they can do so in a way that has a more direct result on achieving their goals, that's fine, but no need to stick around in a thread just to keep saying how worthless the goal is just to be an ass.

Secondly, sometimes helping others is partially about helping them, and partially about making sure that you are doing things to try and make the world a better place. Even if the results aren't going to eliminate the large scale problems, there is something to be said for being a person who wants to make the world a better place, even incrementally. Trying to make change so we feel better about who we are as people is not a bad thing, it can often be part of what it means to lead a fulfilled life.

Thirdly, saying if we can't solve the entire problem then it's pointless to try at all is the wrong mentality, in my opinion. While not every dollar will be properly spent, there are programs that will take off and be successful. It's like saying no one should start a small business because half of them fail in the first year (if that stat is actually correct but for argument's sake let's say it is). If there are larger programs that are sustaining the problem even though they appear to be charities, then fine, donate your time, money, energy, and awareness to others that aren't. There's a great piece about an NCSU grad who is doing great things in Africa, and he started by doing something as simple as raising money while he was here. There's really no telling what the seed of awareness can grow into.

http://www.alumniblog.ncsu.edu/2011/06/17/video-highlights-push-for-clean-water-by-nc-state-alumnus/

Lastly, most of us had the good fortune of being born into a time and place where our efforts towards success could pay off. We were born in a society with stable institutions created through no work of our own...none of you created the government, or road system, or developed the modern educational environment allowing you to learn. YOU didn't establish any of the major societal institutions upon which your success ultimately rests. While you likely did contribute a lot of hard work to create whatever success you've had, we have huge advantages as Americans that many other countries don't have. It's easy to blame the Somalis for their own problems, given the warlords over there, or the Ugandans for theirs, given a history of military dictatorships, but there are a fair number of average people there who have little ability to move beyond their station because of the structures that were in place when they were born. If a little bit of charity allows a few to go to school, or avoid starvation and dysentery, or a micro loan lets them start up a business, that may be all they need to eventually pay it forward and help change the society they're in from the ground up.

7/30/2011 9:46:08 PM

carry on, goldengirl.



I want to see you in the history books.

[Edited on July 30, 2011 at 10:11 PM. Reason : .]

7/30/2011 10:02:23 PM

NOTE to readers: my post is based on the post above before he edited it.

this is not a math problem. this is a complex real life problem with thousands of variables and hundreds of 'solutions' of varying goodness.

while donating money might not bring about the best solution ever, it IS a solution for the crying frail mother who watching her 6 year old (the size of a 2 y.o.) slowly die in front of her. that child receiving some food and tomorrow IS a solution for that mother and child, even though it perpetuates the overall problem further.

the best solution would take decades to bring about, as it involves educating the masses and teaching them to respect each other and let people live instead of killing and raping and plundering their own brethren. it also entails teaching the adult population skills so they can make money instead of beg for it, and teaching the child population science and math and languages and business and plumbing and carpentry and and and... so they can become professionals and then pass the skills and knowledge onto their offspring. that's not something you can do now and see the results in your lifetime.

[Edited on July 30, 2011 at 10:16 PM. Reason : ]

7/30/2011 10:15:25 PM

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/01/10/132803684/the-microfinance-backlash

The bottom line metric -- whether a country gets out of poverty or not -- is not affected by microfinance. It's nice to think that something completely bottom up will work, but history does not show this to be the case. All the countries that have recently come out of poverty (Asian countries) have done so with strong, top-down efforts to organize a country's resources.

Microfinance doesn't build roads, ports, industry with economies of scale, applied technical skills skills, a sufficient amount of peace. That's what takes a country out of poverty. You cannot make big changes without big money. Small changes do nothing to change the fundamental situation.

Until these African countries have that, they are going nowhere.

(The other reason why microfinance doesn't work is because it puts money in the hands of poor people, who are either too dumb or too ignorant to know how to make that money generate a return. If you are going to make an investment, you don't give money to your least talented people. You give money to your most talented people -- those people who have proven capable of building larger businesses in shitty countries. The microfinance approach takes a low-probability approach to finding people with the talent to make a big change.

On average, people with limited skills, experience, and history of success will prove to be poor performers who are unable to handle anything but the simplest tasks. We all know this in our day-to-day lives. Why expect any different in the 3rd world?)

Large-scale foreign aid doesn't help a country get out of poverty. Micro-finance doesn't help a country get out of poverty. FDI doesn't help. The right kind of strong, local governance does.


[Edited on July 30, 2011 at 10:49 PM. Reason : .]

7/30/2011 10:38:34 PM

Another good article on why MFI is doomed
http://www.econ.cam.ac.uk/faculty/chang/pubs/Microfinance.pdf

Quote :

"All told, there is actually surprisingly little real evidence to suggest that the microfinance model in Bangladesh has succeeded in establishing a sustainable and generalisable exit mechanism out of poverty. It is striking that compared to its neighbouring South and East Asian countries, Bangladesh is one of the least successful in sustainably reducing poverty and promoting ‘bottom-up’ productive enterprise development (Osmani, 2005; Chowdhury and Ali, 2006). Why this difference? Put simply, we would argue that while Bangladesh has encouraged the MFI sector to recycle an increasing proportion of domestic savings (and international aid) into mainly unsustainable informal sector microenterprises (e.g., rickshaws, subsistence farms, petty traders, street sellers), neighbouring South and East Asian countries have more aggressively tried to recycle their domestic savings into larger, more sophisticated, innovation-driven, technology-intensive, and thus likely to be more growth-oriented enterprises (for example, see Chang, 2006)."

Quote :

"Typical examples of what most often happens include Cambodia and Kosovo, two of the poorest countries/regions in the world yet with several of the most celebrated MFIs (i.e., ACLEDA in Cambodia, and Pro-Credit in Kosovo). As Bateman, (2007b) points out, in both countries/regions, it is clear to all that the agricultural sector holds out the most - if not only – opportunity to really help develop the local economy and reduce poverty. However, the main MFIs overwhelmingly prefer to focus instead on working with the far more profitable and quick turn-around petty trading sector, especially shuttle traders. The end result has been the construction in both countries/regions of a ‘bazaar economy’ of quite spectacular proportions, but meanwhile the faltering agricultural sector has effectively been allowed to decline (Cambodia) or collapse (Kosovo). Thus seen, high profile MFIs seriously risk becoming mere ‘cathedrals in the desert’ – centres of financial wealth and power, but totally disconnected from the fate of those struggling in the surrounding desert of poverty."

Phew, good thing poor countries don't need agriculture, especially more efficient, larger scale, technologically advanced agriculture.



[Edited on July 31, 2011 at 12:29 AM. Reason : .]

7/31/2011 12:01:08 AM

Quote :

" I'm not cold hearted. I'm just not stupid. If I'm going to commit time/energy/anything to helping someone, I want to make sure it's worthwhile. I do plenty of volunteer work and support charitable organizations. Just not the ones that throw away money with colonialist white-guilt "save the primitives" bullshit."

This is exactly what microfinance is, except it adds in a helping-the-underdog-vaguely-democratic-capitalistic feeling to the movement.

Quote :

"Unlike Genius, I care. Unlike you, I actually use my brain WITH my heart."

Facts not in evidence. Might want to really look at the track record of what you support before you get haughty with others.

MFI has been around since the 80s, and in that time, many countries started lifting themselves out of poverty -- and not a single one used MFI to do so. All the countries that did had no growth or ended up worse off. Instead of throwing money at the model that has had no success over the same time period, you might want to look at the ones that have had success.

Growth of MFI or bogus ROI numbers do not translate real success in growing an economy or raising a country out of poverty. Those numbers also don't mean dick next to the real economic growth of countries that didn't waste time and resources on mickey mouse MFI schemes.

Africa is basically a testing ground for academic, Western policy ideas. MFI is just another in a long line of failed experiments. We aren't their colonizers, but their abject poverty causes African countries to do exactly what we say. We are taking advantage of this opportunity to try out policies we would never deign to implement here.

[Edited on July 31, 2011 at 12:54 AM. Reason : .]

7/31/2011 12:35:02 AM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-africa-famine-camp-20110803,0,4486407.story

LA Times ran a huge 2 pager on it in the paper today for anyone who is interested.

8/3/2011 12:32:08 PM

Quote :

"These countries need to be able to build a sustainable economy on their own. Shipping in goods prevents them from doing that."

And these countries need some better leadership. There was an article that ran not too long ago about how the aid we give, is mostly embezzled by the people in power in those countries and used for the own benefit or for buying guns. If you really wanted to be sure about charity it would seem like it would be better to send someone in to ensure that the funds were being allocated correctly and help use the funding for development.

Otherwise for all you know the money you give to the charities is being used to fund wars. Then again our government probably sends money over to fund wars, keeps those diamonds and rubber low cost amirite? /tinfoil hat.

Seems like there are many reputable charities out there, but who knows where some of this money is going.

8/3/2011 12:48:56 PM

^ yes it is good to know about any non profit you are involved with.

Some standard organizations that rank and monitor them are:
http://www.charitywatch.org/
http://www.thenonprofittimes.com/
http://www.charitynavigator.org/

8/3/2011 12:52:34 PM