Quote :

"The site I kept looking at mentioned that sometimes if you feed your dog a raw diet, they will begin to mimic "wild" behavior patterns. In the wild sometimes dogs/wolves would go days without eating so apparently this is common for dogs on raw diets. Maybe that is what wahoowa is seeing"

First of all this is wrong. I DO feed my dog everyday. I think NCStatePride read what I said wrong. She gets about 1.5lbs of meat per day (she weighs 45 lbs).

I said that my dog does not drink water from her bowl everyday. Two reasons for this: the meat she eats has plenty of water already in it and kibble will make a dog drink much more water than they need.

Quote :

"^agreed. it's not like we started keeping dogs a couple hundred years ago. dogs have been domesticated for over 15,000 years. they're not wild. and this colon cleansing/not eating bullshit is just that. worms don't just float around in the intestine. they attach to the intestinal wall and/or migrate through to other tissues. they'll still feed off of the dog even if the dog isn't eating."

Yes this is true but remember that commercial dog food did not exist in a widespread form until the 1930s. Before then dogs ate whenever food was available or whatever they scrounged themselves. The family ate first before the dog. So to say they have had 15000 years of daily feeding is quite a dumb statement.

Yes I know some people that will skip a dog's meal once a month when on the raw diet but I dont do that...she wont leave me alone until I do feed her anyways.

Quote :

"More likely eating raw meat is allowing their body to run at optimum thereby producing less waste and more energy."

Exactly. And this is why I like feeding a raw diet.

[Edited on December 8, 2011 at 11:33 AM. Reason : a]

12/8/2011 11:28:06 AM

Quote :

"So to say they have had 15000 years of daily feeding "

please copy/paste where i said this.

12/8/2011 11:34:31 AM

Quote :

"^^&^^^oh come on, GTFO out with that crap. Not feeding a dog ONE day is not animal abuse. In fact my dog voluntarily doesn't eat his food every once in a while on a given day."

Having people on bogus "cleansing" diets is retarded enough, but to subject your pet go through the same thing is cruel. It's. Not. Necessary. So your dog doesn't eat his food every once in awhile on a given day, you are still offering food to your dog and not withholding food from it. See the difference? I am saying that willfully withholding necessary resources from your pet, that you are responsible for, is neglectful. Don't be shitty.

12/8/2011 12:15:56 PM

I realize the difference, but I'm also saying that it won't do any harm

12/8/2011 12:36:43 PM

First of all, [user]wahooawa[/user], no one accused you of starving your animal. When I said "maybe this is what wahooawa is seeing", I was referring to dogs voluntarily not eating once in a while due to the raw diet. It wasn't making any kind of comment on how you feed your animal; I just thought that this AKC breeder's knowledge might explain the 'not drinking barely any water' affect.

Second of all, you can call it starving if you want, but the AKC is kind of like the authority in what dogs need to be healthy. I'm not saying that means you have to take what they say as gospel, but these people aren't exactly a puppy mill either...

12/8/2011 2:25:33 PM

Eh I wouldn't go as far as to say the AKC is the ultimate authority in canine health. It is NOT HARD to become an AKC registered breeder. Many puppy mills are registered. People have been arguing for decades that the AKC has led to many of the genetic problems breeds currently deal with. I would not necessarily trust the "expert opinion"of an AKC breeder. Hell, my grandmother was an AKC registered breeder of Afghan hounds in the 70s and knew next to jack about the breed before starting lol.

12/8/2011 3:04:06 PM

I just feed my Siberian Husky Blue Buffalo Wilderness. He gets cooked meat every so often, but it upsets his stomach.

He also skips meals all the time, mostly why I free feed him.

12/8/2011 3:11:00 PM

^^Maybe I place too much weight on being AKC (I've seen some placed not registered AKC and to me that is what I picture when someone says "puppy mill"), but this one has apparently been to shows and they actually track the pedigree of their dogs back several generations.

Take it for what it's worth, but this isn't your grandma's kennel. I would probably put more weight on something I read on their site then something that is on TWW.

12/8/2011 3:35:14 PM

Quote :

"but this one has apparently been to shows and they actually track the pedigree of their dogs back several generations."

Again, that doesn't really mean squat. Really all the AKC is is an organization that collects money so you can say your dog is purebred. There's really no requirements beyond that. And if you talk to show breeders at dog shows, you will quickly find that no two people agree on things like diet, grooming, exercise, etc. My mother-in-law currently breeds Havanese, and the amount of "facts" she has found about the breed from various expert sources that just straight up make zero sense if you've ever studied zoology or veterinary science would make your head spin.

So in short, I say that any breeder saying he fasts his dogs once a week to give the digestive system a "break" and to clean out parasites doesn't really know much about intestinal parasites or how the digestive system works. I'm sure if you told any vet school student on this board that not feeding your dog rids the dog of parasites you'd get a big ol' from them lol.

[Edited on December 9, 2011 at 8:02 AM. Reason : a]

12/9/2011 8:01:33 AM

Alright, I want to step back for a second [Warning: Words. I feel like wolfpackgrrr is arguing things that I'm not claiming in the first place.] and say that the only reason why I brought up this particular breeder wasn't to claim that all dogs should be on a raw diet or that everyone should agree, so trying to make some point against the source I posted that 'not all show dog owners agree on a diet' isn't really proving anything to me. I don't care what they agree on. The very first post (12/7/2011 9:15:25 AM) I made in this thread was asking if those who advocated a raw diet were including the trace amounts of veggies and fiber that I know most kibbles already include in their product. Your response was "Dogs are carnivores so I'm not sure why you would need to give them vegetables or fiber."

I posted something from that link as proof that there are health benefits for dogs in veggies and fiber. I anticipated you might have a problem taking the word of a single breeder, so I also included a Journal of Animal Science study that collaborated the breeder's feelings on the issue.

All this stuff about how credible the breeder is, if everyone should agree on a raw diet, et al is stuff that you brought up that was totally not the point. The breeder was brought up as an example of what one breeder who raises award winning dogs thinks, and the Journal of Animal Science study was posted to give the breeder's facts on this one issue higher fidelity.

As far as the 'fasting' thing, I'm not trying to argue if it's right or wrong, wolfpackgrrr. All I'm saying is that it would appear that a breeder who's facts on veggies and fiber appear to be in line with other credible information out there, states that 'some owners' do fast their animals for one day a week and 'some dogs' will do it on their own. This was entirely directed at wahoowa who mentioned that his dog didn't drink water, suggesting that maybe the dog was 'fasting' itself.

No part of that says that I am supporting starving a dog.

12/9/2011 8:20:43 AM

And I never did say you support starving dogs. But the debate had moved from raw diet in general to the quote you posted as evidenced by the conversation that followed. The dialog evolves, man

12/9/2011 8:47:27 AM

^No problem, just making sure.

FWIW, I haven't seen anyone in this thread claim that they starve their dog or think you should.

12/9/2011 9:23:52 AM

Wow. This thread went in a totally different direction than I intended lol

12/9/2011 12:29:14 PM

My dog eats grass to poo. Pretty sure they eat vegetables (grass at least) to get the fiber when they're constipated.

I feed my dog this:

NUTRO® NATURAL CHOICE® Adult Chicken Meal, Rice & Oatmeal Formula Dog Food
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11147002&lmdn=Health+Benefits

Great for sensitive stomachs and he has great oral hygiene, great coat, and never gets sick.

There's no way you could formulate such a complex nutritional plan for a dog using raw food that dry food can.

Quote :

"Formulated for adult dogs Made of natural ingredients, including real chicken for great taste Enriched with vitamins, minerals and taurine to promote balanced nutrition High in linoleic acid for radiant skin and coat Natural sources of glucosamine and chondroitin support healthy joints Antioxidants boost the immune system Rice carbohydrates increase stamina and energy Wholesome oats are sensitive on stomachs for easy digestion Alpha-linolenic acid encourages nervous system functions, vision and brain function Helps clean teeth and freshen breath for excellent oral hygiene Contains no chicken head, feet or intestines and no ground yellow corn Formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles for adult maintenance Contains chicken meal, ground rice, rice flour, rice bran, whole brown rice, chicken, poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), oatmeal, pea protein, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, soybean oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), sunflower oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), potassium chloride, sodium bicarbonate, l-lysine, salt, choline chloride, egg product, dried kelp, taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), copper proteinate, biotin, niacin supplement, potassium iodide, manganous oxide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin A supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid and vitamin D3 supplement"

12/9/2011 1:42:03 PM

Quote :

"There's no way you could formulate such a complex nutritional plan for a dog using raw food that dry food can."

I think that's kind of the point of a raw diet though. You're simplifying their diet back to its natural state. I have known people with dogs that have had all sorts of allergies, skin problems, etc, that switched to a raw diet with fantastic results. You could very well get those same results from an expensive bag of dog food but I think cost-wise it would be cheaper to try going raw first, especially if you have a hook-up with a local farm to get organ meats and other scraps that they would otherwise throw out or feed their own animals.

12/9/2011 1:52:04 PM

Quote :

"hook-up with a local farm to get organ meats"

yea, but that seems like such a small portion of the population.

12/9/2011 2:35:02 PM

Quote :

" "hook-up with a local farm to get organ meats" yea, but that seems like such a small portion of the population. "

Yeah, I mean eventually you're going to run out of local farmers...

12/9/2011 2:48:05 PM

Quote :

"yea, but that seems like such a small portion of the population."

Around here you'd be surprised. I've found a couple of farmers in the area that will sell me for cheap animal parts nobody else wants retail. You just have to ask. And it's easy to get things like gizzards and intestines around here due to local diet.

12/9/2011 2:51:42 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, I mean eventually you're going to run out of local farmers... "

that's not what i meant , what i meant is not a lot of people live that close to farmers that do this...

12/9/2011 3:04:47 PM

Really? Because most of the people I know who did it live out in the countryside. It seems like there are three groups of people that commit themselves to raw diet: people out in the country, hippies, and hipsters.

12/9/2011 3:06:12 PM

you're talking about people that do this already... i was just inferring that there are few people that have "hook-ups with a local farm to get organ meats"

pardon my grammer mistake

[Edited on December 9, 2011 at 3:24 PM. Reason : .]

12/9/2011 3:23:08 PM

Ahh, well even without access to farmers, you still have places like Grand Asia Market around. You can get a whole mess of placenta, beef bones, intestines, etc there for cheap. I've always wondered what Chinese people do with those placentas because I doubt they're feeding them to their dogs.

12/9/2011 4:41:38 PM

I've never seen a dog that doesn't drink water every day

12/9/2011 6:23:42 PM

I've got a neighbor with about 30 foxhounds. they get fed the cheapest of cheap dry dog food along with whole deer carcasses and stillborn baby calves.

12/10/2011 6:36:18 AM

Quote :

"There's no way you could formulate such a complex nutritional plan for a dog using raw food that dry food can."

Orgel's Second Rule: Evolution is cleverer than you are.

12/10/2011 9:43:45 AM

Quote :

"ground rice, rice flour, rice bran, whole brown rice,"

This is not easily digestible by a dog. In fact, the reason dogs have such huge shits from kibble is that much of the grains are not digested at all. You are literally wasting your money buying this stuff because the dog can barely digest it. And you will also notice the serving size per feeding is huge..probably more than 2.5 cups for a 50lb dog. Again because they cant digest much of the grain.

Quote :

"oatmeal, pea protein, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, soybean oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), sunflower oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), potassium chloride, sodium bicarbonate, l-lysine, salt, choline chloride, egg product, dried kelp, taurine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), copper proteinate, biotin, niacin supplement, potassium iodide, manganous oxide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin A supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid and vitamin D3 supplement"

What? Every single one of these ingredients is a supplement to the food. Its like eating candy every day and taking a multi-vitamin to cover for the stuff you dont get from the candy. Why not just feed the dog a food that contains all of the necessary vitamins and minerals already?

Quote :

"Ahh, well even without access to farmers, you still have places like Grand Asia Market around. You can get a whole mess of placenta, beef bones, intestines, etc there for cheap. "

This. I get all of my organ meat from the chinese market. Even get the rabbit and duck sometimes. Then you stock up on the muscle meat from places like HT when they have whole chickens for .49/lb or leg quarters for .79/lb. Now is the perfect time to grab frozen turkeys for less than a dollar per pound. She eats a 1.5lb per day....thats equal to $25 per month (.49/lb) to feed her a natural diet...thats less than a large bag of shitty dog food.



[Edited on December 10, 2011 at 10:38 AM. Reason : a]

12/10/2011 10:35:53 AM

Quote :

"Every single one of these ingredients is a supplement to the food. Its like eating candy every day and taking a multi-vitamin to cover for the stuff you dont get from the candy."

Well put. I was basically going to say this.

No one is under the impression that you can eat whatever you want and achieve perfect health through a multivitamin. But for some reason the rules never apply to other animals.

12/10/2011 10:50:40 AM

^^ Knows what's going on

12/10/2011 1:37:30 PM

wahoowa, how much space do you find you end up using in your freezer for your dog's food? Right now we have a shitty small freezer which makes things difficult.

12/10/2011 1:41:25 PM

well I dont really buy much frozen food for myself so i generally take up half the freezer or so with meat (its a full size side by side). Generally keep between 20-50 lbs depending on sales. Once I purchase a house I plan to buy a standalone freezer just for meat.

Also now is a great time to stock up on deer meat for free from your hunter friends. I would recommend freezing the meat for at least two weeks to kill any parasites.

12/12/2011 8:42:59 AM

what kind of budget do you raw diet people generally set aside for dog food?

12/12/2011 9:46:51 AM

Raw diet, no, because I'd rather spend my time on interesting hobbies or activities than preparing meat for the dogs. They do get occasional cooked organs from the Farmer's Market, eat a nice quality kibble, and forage from the compost pile, and glucosamine/fish oil when I remember it.

I'd rather invest the money into their care now than have them get overweight and have problems like hip dysplasia, diabetes or arthritis later on down the road.

I'd consider raw for a short amount of time after surgery or for an acute health condition, but wouldn't for
a chronic condition.

12/12/2011 11:59:30 AM