Quote :

"Yeah, typically when one person shoots one or more other people, they're at least brought in for questioning."

YA THINK?

3/23/2012 4:28:30 PM

i'm not familiar with Florida law, but under NC law, there are situations in which shooting an unarmed 17 year old on a public sidewalk or street would be legal.

however, based on the information provided by the media, i think the shooter should have been questioned.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 4:31 PM. Reason : it's not like he has to talk during questioning]

3/23/2012 4:30:50 PM

The Str8Foolish Zimmerman did not kill Treyvon.
Chinese(white),Hispanic(white),and all Europeans killed Treyvon


str8foolish wants this to be about white europeans vs black race so bad it hurts.




[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 4:34 PM. Reason : ,]

3/23/2012 4:33:24 PM

Quote :

"I don't really see why race matters more than the fact that this guy murdered an unarmed kid. Race is probably a huge issue here and I'm inclined to believe it was, but I don't see why it's necessary to mention that almost-fact when the evidence for wrong-doing is already so compelling."

It's obvious that shooting an innocent teenager is wrong, but teenagers getting shot is not a news story. What's making this a story is that Zimmerman is still sitting in his house, unarrested, undetained, unquestioned, and that never would have happened had the races in this situation been switched.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 4:55 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2012 4:34:23 PM

srt8foolish is about to lose it

he's going to boil some white people tonight till their skin falls off and there is no more race issue.

3/23/2012 4:36:12 PM

Quote :

"i'm not familiar with Florida law, but under NC law, there are situations in which shooting an unarmed 17 year old on a public sidewalk or street would be legal."

I call bullshit. Prove it.

3/23/2012 4:43:32 PM

imminent threat of sexual assault would be one such situation.

3/23/2012 4:52:17 PM

it's quite subjective, but the general idea is that "hard hands" can be met with deadly force in some situations.

all i'm saying is that many folks are making this out to be an open-and-shut case of murder, or at least manslaughter, but that is not the case. like i said, the shooting, as presented by the media, deserves further investigation.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 4:58 PM. Reason : ^well, yeah, but i was trying to stay relevant to the situation]

3/23/2012 4:57:45 PM

Geraldo Rivera: Trayvon Martin Would Be Alive but for His Hoodie

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2012/03/23/trayvon-martins-hoodie-and-george-zimmerman-share-blame/

3/23/2012 5:02:17 PM

how many white people need to die to avenge this murder is the question. since it was obviously the white race that did this.

3/23/2012 5:19:27 PM

From the day after: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html

Summary of details not widely reported:

1. The witness reports that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon is on top of him punching him.

2. The witness says that George Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.

3. Police arrive and find Zimmerman bleeding on his face and the back of his head. He also has had grass stains on his back. All this confirms the story told by Zimmerman and the witness.

4. Police play the 911 tape for Trayvon Martin's father, who tells police that the voice screamingfor help is not the voice of his son.

5. The media have turned a 6 feet, 160lb football player on suspension from school into a scrawny pre-adolescent-looking honor student who just loved everybody. All the news reports say he was 140lbs, contrary to the PD's reports. Zimmerman is 5'9, 250lbs. Any day of the week, that is a physical mismatch, and it is not in Zimmerman's favor. Morbidly obese guy with a BMI of 37 against a high school football player of any kind.

I do think it's possible he should be charged with murder, manslaughter, or something else if or when we learn more. I don't know. Zimmerman doesn't strike me as a level-headed guy (to say the least), but that psychological assessment of him must bow to the physical evidence that shows he was getting wailed on by a man he could not physically contend with. Did he start it with 'fighting words'? Did Zimmerman try to physically subdue him? We don't know. And you can't charge murder on "I don't know."

What I do know is that we have learned nothing from the Duke Lacrosse case. The politically-useful narrative takes over and the facts are not just lost but denied.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 5:33 PM. Reason : d]

3/23/2012 5:29:46 PM

One would think the most important evidence would be physical evidence of a struggle.

So did they get photos of Zimmerman's scars? This should be a pretty easy issue to resolve.

3/23/2012 6:15:54 PM

Quote :

"Chinese(white),Hispanic(white),and all Europeans killed Treyvon"

Actually, it was the hoodie.

3/23/2012 6:17:01 PM

^^^those details were reported in the heat of the moment. it was not immediately apparent to them that this was going to be the next OJ Simpson / Casey Anthony / fad case.

its like that period of time when you dont know if a new tv show your running is going to make it or not. as soon as it takes off and is apparently a huge controversy the media will begin pumping all its resources into it to sustain its money making objective.

the first facts to come out are the most true since they arent tainted at that time by this flood of horseshit. in the meantime fucking idiots like al sharpton will ride this straight to a half dozen whitey funerals.

3/23/2012 6:41:19 PM

You guys aren't familiar with it, but in Florida, many hispanics are considered white by society and themselves. This is why the census has white-nonhispanic as an option. Its because many hispanics consider themselves as whites.

So in Florida, this is what you call a "white guy" there are white cubans and black cubans, white prs and black prs, white columbians and black columbians.

3/23/2012 7:32:19 PM

Como un mexicano blanco, estoy haciendo un poquito de 'busqueda de alma' por favor no me molestas con cosas como odio de razas ahora y los significados de palabras floridianas

3/23/2012 7:43:49 PM

If Zimmerman had saved Martins life, people wouldn't be questioning his whiteness. It really depends what Zimmerman considers himself though. But it's irrelevant to the case.

There's no reason a kid just walking home from the store should be shot. Based on the info tuliplovr posted, there's no justification for murder. That's why people are outraged.

And this has almost nothing in common with the Duke Lacrosse. That's like if I said "have we learned nothing from The Scottsboro Boys" or any of the myriad cases of blacks being treated unfairly due to systemic racism.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 8:02 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2012 7:57:00 PM

Quote :

"There's no reason a kid just walking home from the store should be shot. Based on the info tuliplovr posted, there's no justification for murder. That's why people are outraged."

If the eyewitness account in the police report is true, then he was not some kid walking home from the store. First, he wasn't a kid. Six-foot, 17 year old football players aren't kids. Secondly, he was a six-foot football player who mounted and pummeled a man on the ground who was no match for him. That's a lethal threat, and can be met with lethal force.

The only way Zimmerman should be guilty of anything is if we find that he started the physical fight (either with fighting words or actual blows). At that point, he would lose his right to self-defense if he lost the fight he started. But it takes a lot more than "Hey, punk, what are you doing here?" with a suspicious look in the eyes to count as starting the fight.

3/23/2012 8:26:50 PM

We already know he followed the kid. case closed. Give this fucker life.

3/23/2012 8:43:22 PM

So what is it about doing something legal that merits life in prison?

3/23/2012 9:20:38 PM

Quote :

"Secondly, he was a six-foot football player who mounted and pummeled a man on the ground who was no match for him."

I read that he dropped his phone and reached down to pick it up - which got him shot.

Surely you don't dispute that he was talking on his phone with his girlfriend at the time? How in the holy hell does that fit into your story. Or is this where you go pedal-to-the-metal troll?

3/23/2012 9:31:17 PM

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

An eyewitness - and the only eyewitness - says so.

Quote :

"A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities. "The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

We have one eyewitness. And the testimony is clear. But it has gone down the memory hole and hasn't been mentioned again since it was published the day after Zimmerman became a victim.

Politically useful narrative > facts.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 9:43 PM. Reason : a]

3/23/2012 9:41:33 PM

17 year olds are definitely kids, and Martin wasn't a hulking beast. He looks pretty average for his build in pics, and is light for his height.

And you're pretty wrong about him being right in using deadly force. Its unjust to murder someone you stalk for no good reason. I know you're not one of those people that believes the gov is always right, and if something's legal, it's just, and its pretty obvious what happened here was unjust. The local police are claiming this is what the law says, but there is obvious disagreement about this.

Not a single shred of information thus far demonstrates that Trayvon deserved to die that night, literally all of what's know points to Zimmerman being a complete whacko. It's clearly unjust that the person who murdered Martin hasn't faced punishment.

3/23/2012 9:49:31 PM

Quote :

"17 year olds are definitely kids, and Martin wasn't a hulking beast. He looks pretty average for his build in pics, and is light for his height."

17 year olds are kids, in the legal sense, but not when they are football players punching you in the face while your overweight, short, older self is on the ground helpless. He faced the real prospect of getting beaten to death with the fists of a so-called 'kid,' according to the witness, anyway.

Martin was light for his height and not a prime physical specimen, though he obviously had some athleticism. Compared to his competition, he might as well have been Roy Jones, Jr.

As for the rest of it, as I said, the whole case hinges on whether you can show that Zimmerman instigated or is responsible for the physical confrontation.

If he is responsible for starting the physical confrontation, he should fry. If he didn't, or if we can never know who started it, he should stay free. It takes more than catching up to the guy and demanding to know why he was there (even if he did so rudely) to count as starting a fight.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 10:01 PM. Reason : a]

3/23/2012 10:00:58 PM

No way that Martin felt threatened by Zimmerman's legal stalking and was himself acting in self-defense.

Absolutely impossible.

3/23/2012 10:10:05 PM

Zimmerman was no where close to being beaten to death. Did he even have to go to the hospital?

Based on the pics I've seen, I'd much rather tussle with Martin than Zimmerman. Zimmerman looks like a big burly guy.

And what you're saying doesn't make sense. If I creep behind you at night, in the rain, while I'm in my car, and im bigger than you, you wouldn't defend yourself against me? You think it's right for me to then kill you?

You live in a twisted, backwards world if that's the case.

3/23/2012 10:10:07 PM

Quote :

"And what you're saying doesn't make sense. If I creep behind you at night, in the rain, while I'm in my car, and im bigger than you, you wouldn't defend yourself against me? You think it's right for me to then kill you?"

Of course not. But that's not what happened.

3/23/2012 10:54:52 PM

obama interjecting himself into this is really disgusting.

the worst kind of political pandering possible.

you might discard it because its from politico, or maybe simply because its newt gingrich, but politics aside this really hits the fucking nail on the head:

Quote :

"“It’s not a question of who that young man looked like. Any young American of any ethnic background should be safe, period. We should all be horrified no matter what the ethnic background," Gingrich said. "Is the President suggesting that if it had been a white who had been shot that would be ok because it didn’t look like him?" Earlier in the day Gingrich told reporters that he thought the case should be investigated and suggested the shooter was at fault. "That’s just nonsense dividing this country up. It is a tragedy this young man was shot," Gingrich continued on Hannity's show. "It would have been a tragedy if he had been Puerto Rican or Cuban or if he had been white or if he had been Asian-American of if he’d been a Native American. At some point we ought to talk about being Americans. When things go wrong to an American. It is sad for all Americans. Trying to turn it into a racial issue is fundamentally wrong. I really find it appalling.”"

in case you dont know the quote hes referring to, hes referring to earlier in the day when obama said "if i had a son, he'd look like trayvon."

i dont like gingrich, i dont like zimmerman, i dont like the police chief, but by god this is absolutely true. fuck all these little shitweavels that have crawled out of the woodwork to take advantage of dangerous and explosive attitudes.

not surprisingly this is being set up to be the show trial of the summer; get used to having one every year.

3/23/2012 10:55:02 PM

Quote :

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John."

Quote :

"literally all of what's know points to Zimmerman being a complete whacko."

Quote :

"Zimmerman was no where close to being beaten to death. Did he even have to go to the hospital?"

This guy who is a whacko, and called a random black guy in his neighborhood a "coon" is purported (if reported correctly) to have been pinned down on the ground by Trayvon. That doesn't follow the rest of the information available. Obviously the story is going to change if this is the case.

Say someone comes up to you and starts assaulting you. Are you justified in pinning him down?
Well yeah, that's probably the most reasonable response in many cases, although it wouldn't make sense here. Trayvon (however physically intimidating) certainly would have been able to sprint like it's his job. It doesn't make sense that the altercation would have wound up like this unless Trayvon was being aggressive.

Say that someone attacks you and pins you to the ground. Are you justified in shooting them? Well probably.

people ITT were talking about Trayvon punching Zimmerman, which only shows their own bias because there was no such indications in the eyewitness account.

3/23/2012 10:59:53 PM

^ so what you're saying is that Trayvon, in your scenario, should have ran away from (what he thought) was a creepy axe murderer, whilst Zimmerman should have pursued with his gun (what he thought) was a thief?

There's no scenario that makes sense, where Zimmerman is right.

If Trayvon was indeed "pummeling" Zimmerman (which is overstating things based on what we know of Z's injuries) how he manage to unholster his gun, disengage the safety, aim, and shoot and kill Trayvon with 1 maybe 2 bullets?

There's no reason Trayvon should be dead. A murder was committed that night.

Quote :

"Of course not. But that's not what happened. "

yeah... that's exactly what happened.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:17 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2012 11:16:18 PM

so the black panther party puts out an official "wanted dead or alive" notice on george zimmerman and what happens? nothing.

the FBI should be in their ass immediately either 1) insuring they cease to exist as an organization, or 2) exposing them for the pathetic clowns they are and making sure the nation knows theyre just a bunch of do-nothing nobodies that talk too much.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:16 PM. Reason : -]

3/23/2012 11:16:21 PM

Quote :

"people ITT were talking about Trayvon punching Zimmerman, which only shows their own bias because there was no such indications in the eyewitness account."

I've posted the link twice in this thread, from a story posted the day after the shooting.

There is only one eyewitness.

And he has said exactly what you say nobody witnessed. In fact, the one thing you deny is pretty much the only thing he affirms - that Trayvon was punching Zimmerman while Zimmerman was on the ground.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

Quote :

"A man who witnessed part of the altercation contacted authorities. "The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

I'm kinda getting tired of posting it. The news is full of all kinds of information except what the eyewitness said.

[Edited on March 23, 2012 at 11:36 PM. Reason : s]

3/23/2012 11:33:24 PM

^ It doesn't say anything about Trayvon assaulting.

Do you see how they manipulated you with their wording. Told him to stop? Stop what? When did anyone say anything about what it was John called to be stopped? If Trayvon was punching, he should have said so. Why not?

Quote :

"I'm kinda getting tired of posting it."

Maybe you should read it first before making claims that aren't supported.

3/23/2012 11:41:12 PM

Quote :

"how he manage to unholster his gun, disengage the safety, aim, and shoot and kill Trayvon with 1 maybe 2 bullets?"

good training, perhaps

3/23/2012 11:48:08 PM

He's well trained enough to shoot martin, but not well trained enough to beat him up?

An innocent kid is dead at the hands of a wannabe cop who was out for blood in his 911 call.

3/23/2012 11:51:55 PM

Quote :

"He's well trained enough to shoot martin, but not well trained enough to beat him up?"

quite possibly

homeboy's innocent until proven guilty

3/23/2012 11:54:40 PM

Martin wailing on Zimmerman doesn't necessarily make Martin the aggressor or the shooting self-defense.

3/23/2012 11:57:26 PM

^^ actually at this point, he's just innocent.

That's the problem.

He hasn't even had to face a court room, where in fact you are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law.

But if you kill someone who was in a place they had a right to be, you should at least be charged. Which is where the outrage in the case comes from.

^ it's not even clear he was wailing on him. He looks like he got a few hits in, but Zimmerman didn't even have a black eye.

Does this look like someone who got wailed on?


[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 12:01 AM. Reason : ]

3/23/2012 11:59:27 PM

You're getting too caught up on the word wail. Read the rest of the sentence.

3/24/2012 12:03:22 AM

Quote :

"innocent until proven guilty"

So, to take someone to trial you don't have to 'prove them guilty'. That's what the trial is for. We'll all agree there's enough evidence to bring him to trial. But what's the difference between the amount of evidence needed to start the trial and the amount needed to convict?

I would argue it's basically the same standard. But the main reason we have a trial is so that a defense can be produced.

We're past the "show the evidence" stage. He shot the guy.

You're not innocent until proven guilty if you shoot someone. That's drifting into nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not then the prosecution's job to prove it was in self-defense. In the absence of the defense, he's already shown to be guilty. He shot the guy.

These are completely backward burdens of proof. It would be absurd to require a prosecution to shows that Trayvon didn't assault Zimmerman. There is no reason to assert such a thing until Zimmerman claims it, which we all assume he will/has (although that's not clear to me).

3/24/2012 12:05:28 AM

Quote :

"Does this look like someone who got wailed on?"

Oh, I take it that was the mugshot after he was taken in by police.



[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason : cynicism]

3/24/2012 12:07:24 AM

The prosecution would still have to prove the elements of the crime (e.g. manslaughter, some degree of murder, etc.), not just the shooting itself.

3/24/2012 12:11:01 AM

Quote :

"^ It doesn't say anything about Trayvon assaulting. Do you see how they manipulated you with their wording. Told him to stop? Stop what? When did anyone say anything about what it was John called to be stopped? If Trayvon was punching, he should have said so. Why not?"

Good gracious. Let's look at the quote again.

Quote :

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.""

The guy who was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass later, probably dead. Trayvon is the one who was dead and lying in the grass. Therefore, he was also the guy on top and beating up the other guy.

This isn't hard, except when you're determined that the witness is wrong.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 12:11 AM. Reason : a]

3/24/2012 12:11:11 AM

lets just assume he hates n-words and that's all there is to this.


then we can figure out the details later.

3/24/2012 12:26:51 AM

^^^^ i thought about that, but it looks like it is.

3/24/2012 12:30:02 AM

^

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_Zimmerman_Mugshot.jpg

Quote :

"Description English: photo of George Zimmerman from 2005 arrest Date 2005 (Uploaded on Commons at 2012-03-23 02:24:33 (UTC)/Originally uploaded at 2012-03-21 16:06:00) Source http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/3/20/1332269486593/George-Zimmerman-says-he--001.jpg (Originally uploaded on en.wikipedia) Author Orange County Jail, Florida (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/george-zimmerman-seen-police-mug-shot-provided-orange-photo-202111669.html) (Transferred by User:Superm401"

3/24/2012 12:34:13 AM

Quote :

"That's the problem. He hasn't even had to face a court room, where in fact you are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. But if you kill someone who was in a place they had a right to be, you should at least be charged. Which is where the outrage in the case comes from. ^ it's not even clear he was wailing on him. He looks like he got a few hits in, but Zimmerman didn't even have a black eye. Does this look like someone who got wailed on?"

Trayvon was beating Zimmerman, Zimmerman defended himself.

The outrage from this is because the media reported it as a "White man shoots a black unarmed kid in a gated community"

When in fact, it was a hispanic guy defending himself in gated apartment complex.

The black community ran with it as a racial thing and thats why we are at the point we are today.

And also, that is not a mugshot from the night of this incident.

[Edited on March 24, 2012 at 12:36 AM. Reason : .]

3/24/2012 12:35:52 AM

^

Let's say I approach you in an aggressive and provocative manner. You feel threatened and attempt to defend yourself by throwing punches.

I draw my weapon and shoot you dead.

Am I simply defending myself?

3/24/2012 12:46:20 AM

No, then in that case you should probably be arrested.

But we can't PROVE thats what happened in this case.

Zimmerman abandoned looking for Trayvon who he suspected was a criminal.

He was walking back to his car after he lost him.

Then he CLAIMS he was attacked by Trayvon.

There is a witness who sees Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him.

Zimmer shoots Trayvon to defend himself.


The problem with this fucked up situation is that we can't prove who started the fight.

Zimmerman simply following Trayvon != starting the fight.

3/24/2012 12:51:04 AM

^gets it.

3/24/2012 12:52:39 AM