most salaries are higher in NYC, is that because of unions? Well you can argue that drove up the cost of living...so maybe. Just as the cost of living is higher in most union states, so are taxes.

8/21/2012 5:12:53 PM

^ and the test scores in those states are better..

8/21/2012 9:57:56 PM

If you want to have a real adult discussion on the states that perform better we can. I would argue it has little to do with unions.

btw, NY spends the most on education and have unions. Look where they are on the graph.


New York spends more than $18,100 per student on education each year, more than any other state in the country. To put this in perspective, the state's budget includes approximately $12,500 per pupil spent on teacher salaries and benefits. This amount alone is more than the entire education budgets per student of all but a handful of states. Despite this massive amount of funding, the state is an abysmal 31st in the country in both math and reading scores, and the graduation rate of 76.3% is the 12th lowest in the country. According to MSNBC, in response to the release of these statistics, Gov.Andrew Cuomo stated that New York's system would need to be evaluated, and that a powerful teacher evaluation system was needed. He said: "Only in government do you spend money regardless of results. In the real world, you buy something, you spend money, you expect something in return..."
[Edited on August 21, 2012 at 11:35 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on August 21, 2012 at 11:37 PM. Reason : .]

8/21/2012 11:32:23 PM

I agree. There's a huge cultural problem in regards to education in this country that most other first world countries don't have to contend with. America lacks the desire for intellectualism that has driven most of Western society for the past 150 years.

8/21/2012 11:35:43 PM

yes but simple a uniformed "cultural" problem doesnt explain the differences between regions. I think the fact is we know there is a race gap and a wealth gap in regards to education. Those facts are echoed in the chart as well. Southeast vs Northeast. Demographics and wealth of those regions would explain those results more than unions, imo. As evident by NY spending the most, being a union state, yet still towards the bottom. However, most dont want to have that conversation.

I do agree that the overal cutlural trend has elevated idiots (as seen by the host of new crap reality shows that make morons millionares) while discrediting the intellectual or the acheivers. More entertainment than education based is where we seem to be heading.

[Edited on August 21, 2012 at 11:44 PM. Reason : .]

8/21/2012 11:43:39 PM

I think the race and wealth gap are the same thing. I'd be quite surprised to see race still be a factor when coming from similar family wealth. But I haven't looked into it, so feel free to totally call me out.

I think teacher working conditions is a factor in our poor education system, but not the top problem. Kids don't learn anything in school if they don't want to learn. Nothing in the world is gonna make Joe-Bob want to learn calculus more than setting a pile of tires on fire with gasoline after he reaches a certain age.

8/21/2012 11:59:07 PM

Quote :

"I think the race and wealth gap are the same thing"

Honestly you might be right. However first generation mexicans are scoring better than AAs on average, and I would think most would have less wealth initially. Also factor in other groups like Asians and I think it starts to fall apart. I think it has more to do with cultures and priorities/expectations=parents.

8/22/2012 12:31:21 AM

Definitely culture on that one, I think. Asian and Hispanic immigrants have parents who came over explicitly seeking a better life. It's only logical that they would instill those same values in their first generation children.

How did black people get here? Their ancestors were brought over several hundred years ago as slaves against their will. I think I can understand why they might possibly have a jaded perspective on the American dream.

White people are just complacent as fuck at this point.

But that's pretty much why I think it's mainly a cultural problem. Wealth helps, but nothing helps someone become educated more than the legitimate desire to become educated.

[Edited on August 22, 2012 at 12:37 AM. Reason : ]

8/22/2012 12:36:31 AM

http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneducator/spring2012/Willingham.pdf

I haven't finished reading this yet, but you two (^ & ^^) may find it interesting.

8/22/2012 12:43:02 AM

cost of living in nyc is higher, property is higher so of course everything is more expensive. money figures are all in usd but don'tlet the confuse you. new york dollars and mississippi dollars are almost like different currency.

Quote :

"I dont know enough about it honestly. One is going to be a principle. I did a google search and it seems they can make around the 80k mark. Maybe they were including benefits. Still 70k for 9 months of work is good money. But my cousin did say the top pay was in the low six figures. I was surprised, why I remembered it. Where in PA are you? They are in a nice district in Washington PA, outside of Pittsburgh. Apparently there is a waiting list to get a job in their district."

In a lot of places, teachers max out in the 90s easily and teaching is not 9 months of work as professional development is an ongoing process. Many teachers are constantly in school either during the year or over summer. Yearly curriculum maps and plans take up a lot of time. This can be done on weekends to avoid summer work but its not "9 months of work" unless you teach gym, its just crammed in to a 9 month period.

Quote :

"^ and the test scores in those states are better.."

standardized tests are the whole problem to begin with. the less teachers actually teach, the higher they can raise the scores.

Quote :

"But that's pretty much why I think it's mainly a cultural problem. "

Where is culture developed? should be in schools but we are too busy buying standardized tests from companies that we minimize the arts, culture and creativity in our schools.

Quote :

"teacher quality"

politicians spend so much time focusing on teacher quality and end up making laws that force teachers to conform. they forgot that teaching is an art, not a science and when every teacher has to do the same thing, it kills the whole system. some teachers can thrive in it if its conforming to their style, some teachers can "thrive" by generating scores without teaching and teachers who don't conform with the style will appear to be "bad teachers" even if they are actually teaching.

8/22/2012 1:35:44 AM

Quote :

" and teaching is not 9 months of work as professional development is an ongoing process."

please

I agree with the rest of what you are saying. Teachers seem overly sensative to the fact they dont work year round. So you have to throw in professional development. Well I have to get 25 hrs of CME a year to keep my license. I read journals and trade magazines. Attend different conferences. Get called on weekends. I spend a ton of time after work finishing charts, doing reports or referral letters, payroll, etc. It is part of the job. So dont pretend that every teacher is busting their ass for work in the 3 months a year they are off. It is a great career if you want to raise a family. Yes I do think they are under appreciated overall, but whining about working 9 months a year with good pay and benefits doesnt help your cause. imo

8/22/2012 8:34:26 AM

I'm not whining I'm just pointing out that teachers work more than most other professions. The school day is the "performance" or the "game" for teachers but there takes strategy, planning and preparation before going into that. We have to

buy the materials
get them set up
plan the lesson
create our presentation and visual aids
integrate differentiation into the lesson
create alternative lessons for absentees
create extensions for early finishers
prepare answers for difficult questions students will ask
determine multiple assessment strategies
study ieps to avoid getting sued

and the actual teaching part is the least of that time. then afterwards we have to

grade everything
determine what needs to be shored up or retaught
contact counselors about concerns
contact parents about concerns
talk to parents who want to talk everyday even though everything is great
manage behavior plans

and your subject content can change frequently which requires studying
laws change frequently which requires studying
pedagogy research changes frequently which requires studying

if teachers only worked during the school day it would be great but teachers work more than most in reality unless they teach something thoughtless like gym.

8/22/2012 11:03:40 AM

Work more than "most other professions"? Really? You cannot be serious. Granted, this is anecdotal, but of all the people I know with salaried positions teachers probably put in the least amount of time on the job by a wide margin, and yes I'm including lesson plans and grading.

Look, the schoold day is 7 hours or less (8-3 at the longest, a lot of places run shorter days than that), so even if you assume that they work through their planning period and do an extra hour before and 2 hours after they are only then pulling what most salaried professionals work (8-5+ or 9-6+). Factor in the 9 month work year plus all the holidays and there is just no way you can honestly say that teachers put in more than most other professions.

I'm not saying they're lazy, most are not. I will say that they are definitely one of the most stressed out professions I've seen, and probably take their work mentally and emotionally more than most, but let's not act like they're putting in 12 hour days 7 days a week.

8/22/2012 11:16:41 AM

I honestly don't do a thing work-related during the summer, and my days aren't all that long. I probably put in 50-hour weeks most weeks, which isn't that bad compared to many of my friends in the private sector (although all of these friends do make more money than me). Then again, there are people at my school who might as well sleep here.

But this discussion is moot. For cognitive tasks, you pay what is required to recruit and retain quality labor. A glance at the teacher attrition rate in non-union states will indicate that we aren't paying enough, or at very least we aren't paying math/science teachers in high-need areas enough. As a social studies teacher in a pretty good district, I feel that my pay would be about right, had the state not frozen my pay five years back.

8/22/2012 11:31:04 AM

^what state are you in? Are they out of money? What other reason to freeze your pay?

^^^ sorry, but I actually laughed. You left off drive to and from work, prepare meals at home, bath, etc.

[Edited on August 22, 2012 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .]

8/22/2012 1:31:19 PM

^NC. Because they wanted to cut the sales tax by a percentage? No teacher in NC has received a pay increase since 2008. Although to be fair, they technically gave us a 1.2% raise this year. While quietly cutting our base pay.

Compare the 2008-2009 salary schedule: http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2008-09schedules.pdf

to the 2012-2013 salary schedule: http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2012-13schedules.pdf

In 2008, the state promised that I would be making $36,670 by now. Instead after six years I'm making $30,8500 plus a 1.2% one-time raise.

I have a history degree so my options would be limited were I want to leave teaching, but imagine you're a skilled teacher with a science/technology/math degree in the same boat as me. For how long would you put up with this? And even among those whose degrees tie them to teaching, the good teachers move to easier districts, or districts with higher local supplements. That's what I did.



[Edited on August 22, 2012 at 3:31 PM. Reason : ]

8/22/2012 3:06:21 PM

the typical 8-5 job, work ends at 5. The school day is not half of the work teachers do. As someone who has had two other completely different careers, there is also a lot of on the job downtime in many professions that just doesn't happen if a teacher is doing their job correctly.

Sure you could get an easy subject or half ass it and not actually teach and end up with no work outside of the classroom but that simply doesn't get the job done. The jobs that do work more than teachers are all the highest paying in society like doctors for example.

[Edited on August 22, 2012 at 4:00 PM. Reason : its not possible to teach most subje well if the only work you do takes place during the school day.]

8/22/2012 3:58:31 PM

^^Christ, you're making the equivalent of $15/hour. Unless you really, really, really love what you're doing or you're unqualified for anything else it's time to start job hunting.

8/22/2012 4:35:27 PM

^^^jesus christ man, what county are you in?

what grade level?

thats fucking terrible!

8/22/2012 5:10:53 PM

^^ Eh, I find it pretty enjoyable/rewarding. I will be looking around when the economy improves and the market is more amiable to people with humanities degrees, though.

^ My county has a halfway decent local supplement. I don't want to reveal exactly where I teach given some things I've had to say about education policy, but it's around 5%. So it's more accurate to say that I make a bit under $33,000 after my county has paid me. Keep in mind that not all counties have supplements, and that there are third-year math teachers in Nowhere, NC making $30,800 and not a penny over. They're either saints, or 1.0 GPA students from Fayetteville State or UNC-P. Is it good policy to depend on either of these types of teachers?

Grade level doesn't affect pay, but I teach high school.



[Edited on August 22, 2012 at 6:43 PM. Reason : ]

8/22/2012 6:20:22 PM

Man, that sounds awful.

Not to get into a dick measuring contest and have to listen to people with mechanical engineering degrees talk about how great they are and how only dumbfucks have humanities degrees, but... I have a BA in English Lit and I haven't made your salary since I was still in college. You can definitely make much more out there with a humanities degree, it's just a matter of broadening your career options and doing a lot of job searching/interviewing.

Jesus, I can't even imagine making that kind of salary and having to put up with shithead HS students.

I will say this, it takes a different breed to be a teacher and many of them are much more selfless than I'll ever be. There's obviously a non-cash fulfillment you must get from that job. Unfortunately in addition to all those people who do it for the joy of the job there are also a lot who fall into the those who can do, those who can't teach category. Then there are the people who wanted to be teachers, quickly realized what a load of shit it was, but also realized they could coast along for the rest of their lives and never get fired. Way too many of them out there too.

8/22/2012 7:39:35 PM

boone could you make more in private? Get additional degrees to increase your pay? Hell if you like what you are doing that is a HUGE plus. I make decent money but somedays I hate my job.

8/23/2012 9:23:17 AM

He could make more in private but humanities are insanely competitive and he'll probably be competing with some 60 year old lawyer who wants to give back or a 20 year teacher who works magic in the classroom.

8/23/2012 11:06:12 AM

Quote :

"Then there are the people who wanted to be teachers, quickly realized what a load of shit it was, but also realized they could coast along for the rest of their lives and never get fired. Way too many of them out there too"

In my experience, there are less of these teachers than most people think. Being a good teacher is tough, but being a bad/lazy teacher is often way tougher. Attrition hits bad teachers pretty hard, too. It's actually a topic for debate as to whether it hits good or bad teachers more.


^^I know I could make about the same amount of money in a much less stressful office/HR job, but for me the rewards of teaching outweigh the stress. Given the competition The E Man mentioned, I doubt I could move into a private sector job that's both rewarding and higher paying without another degree.

At this point I guess I should mention that my wife is an engineer, which explains my ambivalence toward my pay. I know that my colleagues who are the primary breadwinners at home are less ambivalent, and many are leaving the profession or moving to higher paying positions within education.

The most frustrating part is that while we're hurting for money in so many areas, we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars on implementing a brand new curriculum (common core) and an accompanying testing regimen so as to qualify for Race to the Top (NCLB v.2.0). Because we need to put those teachers' noses to the grindstone with more testing!



[Edited on August 23, 2012 at 12:42 PM. Reason : ]

8/23/2012 12:28:35 PM

I meant private school. I get you like what you do, I was just thinking it might be more money for you.

8/23/2012 7:47:08 PM

Oh, no. Private schools generally pay less and almost universally offer less benefits. Why pay teachers more when you're offering a significantly easier gig?

8/23/2012 9:05:16 PM

ah ok. How about getting more certificates or degrees? Just brain storming. If you really like what you do, keep doing it man. The money will come. Tutor maybe?

8/23/2012 9:26:05 PM

You can't generalize private schools like that. The only thing you could say is that base salary is typically three times tuition.

[Edited on August 23, 2012 at 11:00 PM. Reason : /heard at a confernce]

8/23/2012 10:59:50 PM