2 nuclear bombs used in anger

9/26/2012 11:03:34 PM

Quote :

"d357r0y3r Jimmies: Unrustled 6673 Posts user info edit post That's a fair point. I think the point I was trying to convey is that the United States is a thoroughly immoral nation. Whether it was any better in the past is largely immaterial; currently policies reflect a culture that has experienced a severe degree of moral decay. 9/26/2012 8:04:41 PM "

What policies? We were literally founded as a nation that borrowed money and killed people with it, literally. Where is the moral decay, what is different?

[Edited on September 27, 2012 at 7:59 AM. Reason : Autocorrect]

9/27/2012 7:59:09 AM

You could make a vague and loose argument about every nation on the planet being "immoral".

9/27/2012 9:18:16 AM

Quote :

"What policies? We were literally founded as a nation that borrowed money and killed people with it, literally. Where is the moral decay, what is different?"

The difference is scale and degree. The government is stealing and killing in greater numbers, and the people are mostly complicit with these actions.

Quote :

"You could make a vague and loose argument about every nation on the planet being "immoral"."

Could you? Do you really think the United States and Switzerland are on equal footing when it comes to morality?

[Edited on September 27, 2012 at 9:23 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2012 9:22:51 AM

(I didn't say "equal footing", just said an argument on "immoral" could be made. and has been mentioned, the argument could also be made that america (and all other nations) have always been "immoral". and i gotta say, it's perplexing that you seem to be holding armandinjad as a bearer of "morality")

9/27/2012 9:29:47 AM

I don't hold anyone as the "bearer of morality", he just happens to be speaking the truth in parts of that speech. I have an objective way to determine what is and is not moral. Any initiation of force is immoral, so yes, it would be correct to say that any state is ultimately dependent upon a rejection of morality.

While all states require a rejection of morality, all states are not equally immoral. Remember that a "state" is just individuals; we have to judge people by their actions, not rhetoric. Iran is shitty on civil rights, no doubt. How many countries has Iran invaded, though?



[Edited on September 27, 2012 at 10:00 AM. Reason : But remember, that's all to "maintain regional stability"!]

9/27/2012 9:56:44 AM

I get your point.

What about Hezbollah, who receives lots of money and political support from Iran? Maybe they haven't "invaded" other countries, but they've lobbed missles and sent suicide bombers into other countries (israel, turkey, etc). Sure, it can be argued that it was in retaliation.... i'm just arguing to be arguing now, so i'll stop.

9/27/2012 10:16:50 AM

how do you measure immorality? what is the immorality metric? how is it greater now?

if it is just on federal tax revenue, don't you need to look at per capita "morality"?

9/27/2012 10:19:18 AM

This dude is looking for metrics for determining morality. Get back to chit chat.

9/27/2012 10:27:57 AM

YOU were the one claiming (repeatedly) that our morality has declined, stating it like it was a fact. In what way has our morality declined, what metric did you use to decide that? I postulate that morality is on par with how it has always been, may possibly have increased if you relate civility to morality (which is questionable).

So, back up your claim

9/27/2012 10:37:42 AM

He already gave you his metric for morality: "Any initiation of force is immoral."

Granted calling this objective is a completely baseless assertion. Is initiating force to save someone's life immoral? Oh crap, there goes objectivity.

9/27/2012 11:08:21 AM

Quote :

"That's a fair point. I think the point I was trying to convey is that the United States is a thoroughly immoral nation. Whether it was any better in the past is largely immaterial; currently policies reflect a culture that has experienced a severe degree of moral decay."

Quote :

"The difference is scale and degree. The government is stealing and killing in greater numbers, and the people are mostly complicit with these actions."

Quote :

"Any initiation of force is immoral"

Not sure how I can spell this out any more clearly than I have. Our military empire is bigger than it ever has been. We have more people incarcerated than any country in the world, many of them for drug crimes. The national debt is nearly as big as a percentage of GDP than it ever has been, except this time it wasn't grown for the purpose of "fighting evil" like in WWII, it was free money for bankers and corporations.

These are the metrics. I don't have a "morality per square foot" figure for you.

Quote :

"Is initiating force to save someone's life immoral?"

Depends on the circumstances, doesn't it? If you tackle a shooter to the ground, it wasn't really "initiation"; the shooter threatened violence by pointing a gun at someone.

[Edited on September 27, 2012 at 11:15 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2012 11:13:40 AM

The good old NAP. Works great for measuring immorality as long as you never identify your own assumptions about what constitutes aggression...


edit: To clarify, I'm definitely with destroyer that the US is the bigger bad guy here, but this whole "measuring immorality" line of thought is pointless.

[Edited on September 27, 2012 at 11:15 AM. Reason : .]

9/27/2012 11:14:33 AM

so it seems to be independent of population size

also, debt is immoral?

9/27/2012 11:15:02 AM

private property too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

[Edited on September 27, 2012 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

9/27/2012 11:18:04 AM

Quote :

"also, debt is immoral?"

Not all debt. When the people obligated to pay back the debt don't have any say in the matter, absolutely.

9/27/2012 11:18:23 AM

ahahahahaahaaaaa..........

This guy is a fucking clown. Also, I stand by my prediction that the rhetoric and threats will rise as we get closer to the election.

9/27/2012 10:14:26 PM

Greece on the verge of collapsing... where is this on the major news sources?

You have to actively pursue the information to find it. But how are you supposed to know it's happening if you don't know it's happening?

9/28/2012 12:36:09 AM

Once again, it's on the news.

NPR has been talking about it for days.

You also realize that protests happen all the fucking time and they don't mean the world is coming to an end?

9/28/2012 12:50:59 AM

^^

Al Jazeera:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2012/09/2012926131513189704.html

The Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/26/eurozone-crisis-general-strike-greece-spain

CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/26/world/europe/greece-protests/index.html?hpt=wo_bn6

Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/26/greek-riot-police-clash-with-protesters-hurling-bottles-fire-bombs-during/


BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18094883


New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/world/europe/greece-agrees-on-new-austerity-package.html?_r=1&ref=world

Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-fg-spain-austerity-20120928,0,6122595.story

Like, all of those were on the front page of their respective 'World' or 'Europe' Section.....exactly where you would expect them to be.

[Edited on September 28, 2012 at 12:57 AM. Reason : ]

9/28/2012 12:56:33 AM

hilarious - this guy's paranoid ramblings about some fictitious media conspiracy never ceases to entertain.

9/28/2012 1:02:07 AM

actively pursue

9/28/2012 1:20:33 AM

Correct.

Tom Brokaw did not knock on my door, hand me a Coors Light, and tell me about today's events like he used to.

9/28/2012 1:22:15 AM

None of those american sources had spain or greece on the front page, yet the international sources have it plastered all over

9/28/2012 1:29:04 AM

No shit. News is entirely a commodity in America. Whatever sells the most ads goes on the front page.

9/28/2012 2:33:47 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/26/world/europe/greece-protests/index.html?hpt=wo_bn6

Quote :

"Minor scuffles broke out Wednesday between demonstrators and police in Athens... At least 20 people were arrested "

WHY ISN'T THIS FRONT PAGE NEWS GUIZE

9/28/2012 2:35:18 AM

Minor scuffles? More like epic scuffles.

9/28/2012 2:48:53 AM

Quote :

"None of those american sources had spain or greece on the front page, yet the international sources have it plastered all over"

These protests/riots often don't make the headlines worldwide because they are woefully common. Greek and Spanish troubles have been going on for quite some time now, so its not exactly groundbreaking when a segment of their population take to the streets with rocks and petrol bombs.

Hell, I am in the de facto capital of Europe and I am not constantly inundated with news from Greece or Spain.

9/28/2012 7:27:13 AM

Quote :

"These protests/riots often don't make the headlines worldwide because they are woefully common. Greek and Spanish troubles have been going on for quite some time now, so its not exactly groundbreaking when a segment of their population take to the streets with rocks and petrol bombs."

Before you go throwing around "government collapses are woefully common", you should check out the other woefully common and "going on for quite some time" articles that are completely meaningless that take up space on the front pages of these news sites.


"Michigan police skeptical they will find Hoffa's body under…"
Clinton urges 'cool heads' in China-Japan dispute (no riots yet)
Court to release documents in theater shooting



When spain and greece go, it'll be like a domino effect. It easily trumps other front page news articles and deserves a front page spot. Especially in place of this one:

9/28/2012 10:54:20 AM

Should I go ahead and whiteout spain and greece from all of my maps?

9/28/2012 10:58:08 AM

I don't know. Should you?

9/28/2012 11:00:21 AM

Do you have a go pack already packed and a solid plan on where to escape into the countryside?

9/28/2012 11:06:47 AM

With drones and night vision available, escaping into the woods is futile.

9/28/2012 11:21:17 AM

Quote :

"Before you go throwing around "government collapses are woefully common""

too bad he didn't say "government collapses are woefully common." damn, son

9/28/2012 1:14:10 PM

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/09/27/the_entebbe_option

The article's focus is on what Israel can realistically do in a military sense, but there is a second theme in the article of how the United States is trying its best to avoid war with Iran, frustrating the Israelis to no end. The greatest threat is not that the United States is going to go bomb Iran but that the Israelis are going to try and do something to trap the United States politically into going to war with them (Israel does something stupid without telling the US; Iran responds by lashing out by attacking the United States, forcing the US to militarily respond).

9/28/2012 3:13:14 PM

Last time I checked the United States created Israel and the United States gives them a paycheck.

Israel is the United State's bitch. Not the other way around.

9/28/2012 3:27:33 PM

that's not the way it always plays out in reality. israel has a pretty strong lobby and influence in the u.s.

9/28/2012 3:31:56 PM

I look at it as husband/wife relationship ttytt.

9/28/2012 3:37:20 PM

Iran news agency picks up "Onion" story, tells Iranians rural Americans prefer Ahmadinejad to Obama


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57522363/iran-news-agency-picks-up-onion-story-tells-iranians-rural-americans-prefer-ahmadinejad-to-obama/



It happens to the best of us

9/28/2012 5:05:47 PM

Quote :

"Israel is the United State's bitch. Not the other way around."

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that they can't be a manipulative bitch either. No doubt either that there is a clear rift between the United States and Israel on this particular issue as well.

9/28/2012 5:06:40 PM

This is funny

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/ahmadinejad-image-hug-chavez-mother-photoshop-133036230.html

Quote :

"The image drew the immediate fury of Tehran's religious conservatives. “No unrelated women can be touched unless she is drowning at sea or needs medical treatment," Hojat al-Islam Hossein Ibrahimi, a cleric at the Society of Militant Clergy, said, according to Iran's Al-Monitor."

[Edited on March 12, 2013 at 3:59 PM. Reason : ]

3/12/2013 3:43:54 PM

Ahahaha

3/12/2013 4:22:19 PM

haha, awesome!

more details here of the cover up attempts, including the story of a similar forbidden act committed by his predecessor, and his attempted cover up by lying: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/11/image-of-ahmadinejad-clasping-hands-with-chvezs-mother-doctored-by-his-supporters
http://inn.ir/NSite/FullStory/News/?Serv=1&Id=139453&Rate=0

i must add, this is the 2nd time nejad has angered clerics in the last few days. the first time, he basically said chavez will be part of the entourage of the christ's second coming

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iran-blog/2013/mar/07/ahmadinejad-chavez-resurrected-too-far

3/12/2013 5:36:15 PM

Quote :

"When will you believe me that the United States is running on a script that is going to lead up to war regardless of the truth?"

Now.

11/24/2013 1:05:12 AM

Not sure which way the source is leaning, but it is certainly interesting. Iran is saying the White House is lying to the American public in its official publication of the deal that was struck.

http://freebeacon.com/iran-white-house-lying-about-details-of-nuke-deal/

11/27/2013 6:57:44 AM

I'm confused, because the version of the agreement that I learned in American media did also say that Iran had the right to enrich Uranium for energy purposes. Where are we being lied to?

11/27/2013 8:44:14 AM

More details, less fear-mongering.

http://iranpulse.al-monitor.com/index.php/2013/11/3364/iran-disputes-white-house-fact-sheet-on-nuclear-agreement/

Quote :

"Afkham did not go into the specifics of what aspects of the document were inconsistent with Iran’s understanding of the agreement. In the Iranian media, there seems to be confusion over Iran’s right to enrichment. Iran’s foreign minister and top nuclear negotiator Mohammad Javad Zarif said that Iran’s right to enrich had been officially recognized. However, US Secretary of State John Kerry told ABC’s “This Week,” that “We do not recognized the right to enrich,” and British Foreign Secretary William Hague told the BBC that the phrase “right to enrich” is “not in the document.” Ansar-e Hezbollah published an open letter to the head of Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting, Ezatollah Zarghami, asking him to release the contents of the agreement on Iranian television both for public awareness and to clear the “contradictions” in the statements from Western and Iranian officials. “The recent agreement between the government and P5+1 is part of the important events in Islamic Republic history,” read the letter. “Many people, due to lack of access to the Internet, do not have complete information of the complete contents of the agreement and the contents expressed.” The letter continued, “In consideration of the contradictions in the statements between Western officials and some officials in our country, it is necessary to make transparent the real contents of the agreement.”"

11/27/2013 8:51:19 AM

So it sounds like the document doesn't explicitly acknowledge their right to enrich, but does implicitly acknowledge it by allowing Iran to keep their 8,000-18,000 centrifuges, allows them to continue to develop new centrifuges, doesn't require them to reduce their stockpile of 3.5% enriched uranium, and allows them to enrich up to 5% for energy purposes. The agreement says that it will "involve a mutually defined enrichment program with practical limits and transparency measures to ensure the peaceful nature of the program"

to me, that sounds like acknowledging the right to enrich LEU, to me

[Edited on November 27, 2013 at 8:58 AM. Reason : but I don't see where the White House is telling us otherwise]

11/27/2013 8:57:32 AM

It is interesting to watch congress trying to undermine the deal by issuing tougher sanctions. What is their reasoning behind that? Is it just that it's politically popular to be against Iranians? Isn't the whole point of the sanctions to bring them to the negotiation table? Or is it just to officially punish them while letting them continue enrichment?

11/27/2013 1:57:18 PM

Obviously details are still trickling out but the deal seems to really relax sanctions quite a bit.

4/2/2015 1:31:54 PM