But....none of this matters.

10/2/2012 10:35:00 AM

One team has gotten better since the coach's arrival taking over a 3-9 team to 7,8,9 win seasons.

One coach has taken over a team that made 11 straight bowls to losing to MTSU.

Oh and who has more bowl wins in the last five seasons?

10/2/2012 10:38:18 AM

Quote :

"You really want someone to compare the recruiting ratings between Gailey and Amato? You might be surprised."

Amato did well in the beginning...but IIRC...his last couple classes were TOB-level. And he sucked at position recruiting...going mostly after skill players and neglecting o-line and depth at DT.

10/2/2012 10:44:20 AM

TOB and PJ are 1-1 head to head.

Who has GT lost to in their last 2 bowl games? Utah and AF. Really strong competition there. Much better to lose to AF than beat a Big East team.

And in measuring PJ's success, are you takinging into account the cheating he did that led to vacating the ACC championship? And how does cheating factor into the success of PJ over TOB?

10/2/2012 10:52:33 AM

Quote :

"And how does cheating factor into the success of PJ over TOB?"

I didn't know you were a SFN poster. that explains a lot

but yeah, GT lost a meaningless bowl game against a mediocre team last year to finish 8-5. NC State beat a mediocre team in a meaningless bowl game last year to finish 8-5.

Quote :

"7,8,9 win seasons."

actually, it's only 8 and 9...the other 3 seasons have all been losing seasons. and gotten better? please. TOB has had a winning record in the ACC once, which regressed back to .500 last year. he's never won a divisional road game. buy hey, he did finish 3rd in the division...once

Quote :

"TOB was left with an Amato clusterfuck and PJ got Gailey's highly rated recruits"

from Scout.com

2003: NC State 9th, GT 34th (don't think there were many left by TOB, but they would have been RS Sr if there were)
2004: NC State 20th, GT 35th
2005: NC State 23rd, GT (not top 25, not archived)
2006: NC State 42nd, GT 49th
2007: NC State 60th, GT 15th

not that I think recruiting matters as much when you get outside of the elite programs. but it is interesting to note that 2008 is the only year TOB has had a higher ranked recruiting class than PJ

[Edited on October 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM. Reason : .]

10/2/2012 11:18:32 AM

Quote :

"buy hey, he did finish 3rd in the division...once"

Wish we could play in the same division as powers Duke, UNC, and UVA. How many ranked teams are in the coastal?

Tob's record against the coastal division is pretty damn good.

[Edited on October 2, 2012 at 12:34 PM. Reason : Switch us with GT we gain at least 1 win per season and GT loses at least 1]

10/2/2012 12:32:58 PM

PJ's record:

2008 - Great year with Gailey's players, ass raping by LSU
2009 - Year marred by cheating, wins vacated, beat by Iowa in Orange
2010 - Mediocre year, ass stomped by TOB in ATL, loss to AF in bowl
2011 - Mediocre year, loss to Utah in bowl
2012 - Terrible year, ass stomped by MTSU, likely no bowl (at least the bowl losing streak ends!)

I'm seeing a trend here...

10/2/2012 1:35:02 PM

it's amusing that your argument is that PJ has trended down while TOB has trended up. yet the point to which they have both trended was the same record last year and similar on-field results this one.

Quote :

"Wish we could play in the same division as powers Duke, UNC, and UVA."

I'll give you that UNC beat GT once in 4 tries since PJ has been at GT. So in that case, TOB has bettered him. but for as good a TOB has been against the coastal, so has PJ been against the atlantic (GT is 11-2 under PJ). maybe there is some improvement for TOB if he flops division. but given he is 1-4 against BC, 2-3 against Wake, and 1-1 against duke makes that assumption far from certain

[Edited on October 2, 2012 at 8:01 PM. Reason : .]

10/2/2012 7:44:47 PM

Quote :

"and similar on-field results this one"

Uhh...no. We beat our cupcakes. GT's cupcakes kick their ass.

And we beat our rivals....

10/3/2012 10:40:58 AM

Quote :

"I'm going to enjoy bumping this thread with each GT loss."

See you next week.

10/7/2012 12:24:21 PM

would have been nice if PJ had taught Demaryius how to hold on to the ball

10/7/2012 4:31:29 PM

On his firing of Al Groh

Quote :

"His system was not working for us, so we have to try to change. The definition of futility would be to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results."

Except his whole offense is based on running the triple option every play and hoping for a time the defense misses an assignment resulting in a big play.

10/10/2012 4:20:12 PM

^ lol, that may be the worst ST post ever

10/10/2012 4:30:27 PM

I am surprised goldie locks is still trying to defend Johnson. It is clear that he hit his ceiling. He and TOB both are 8-9 win per year coaches in their good seasons, 5-6 win in their bad seasons. Neither is going to elevate a program to consistent top-10 type success.

Johnson's handling of this situation with Groh is pretty deplorable. Johnson needs to be fired, but GT cannot afford to fire him (sort of like with Paul Hewitt). Johnson probably could do okay as an OC or go out to a WAC type program where no one gives a crap about defense.




[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 7:58 AM. Reason : u]

10/11/2012 7:58:07 AM

Quote :

"He and TOB both are 8-9 win per year coaches in their good seasons, 5-6 win in their bad seasons."

I don't think TOB and Johnson are a good analogy. TOB can consistently win 7-9 games at a BCS conference where Johnson can only do that a small school. His recruiting sucks at the BCS level and his system can't win consistently with sub-par players at a high level.

10/11/2012 8:18:29 AM

to be fair TOB would probably also have an ACC title if he hadnt kicked his best player off the team in 2011. Can't hold that against him, abitrary rules have to be enforced arbitrarily.

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 9:36 AM. Reason : a]

10/11/2012 9:35:32 AM

PUNTED ON FOURTH AND TWO

SIX YARD PUNT

10/11/2012 9:39:45 AM

^^RW and TOB's best shot at a title was 2010, not 2011. I sat in the bitter ass cold watching them choke the game away at UMD that year. does RW score more than zero at FSU last year? maybe. but he doesn't play defense.

as for this"his system" canard. "his system" has put up more yards and points than NC State has every year under TOB save one where State averaged more points per game. it also is currently 6th or 7th in yards per play. "his system" has averaged 32 points and 450 yards in a 3 game losing streak. "his system" leads the country in plays over 20 yards. "his system" has a QB with a rating 30 points higher than Glennon.

if you're really pointing at "his system" as to why GT sucks right now, you really have no business discussing sports

I do thank wstcoastwolf removing himself from the realm of credibility with that post.

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 12:09:43 PM

^ his system also impacts his defense which is why his team sucks this year. You are cherry picking the good and ignoring the bad. TOB sucks at recruiting and his teams are inconsistent on the field, but I'd rather have him than the sinking ship that is GT right now. PJ is going to keep his job simply because GT can't afford to fire him.

10/11/2012 12:21:15 PM

that makes no sense - his offense impacts his defense? what? scoring too much means the defense has a harder job?

I know you want to go with "they face option offenses all the time," but that's bullshit for two reasons. one, every team has scout teams that the defense runs against. and two, if anything, a defense that constantly faces an option offense in practice would be, if anything, more disciplined, not less. gap responsibility and the need to stay in your role on defense is even more important against a spread option team. running against an option team in practice doesn't make a team suddenly have 40 missed assignments in a game like GT did last week.

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM. Reason : /]

10/11/2012 12:24:22 PM

^^^ We didnt need to score on FSU to win the ACC. Though obviously we would have...

Just needed to beat Wake and BC. Or GT.



But you're right TOB blew it huge in 2010 too with that six yard punt that he blamed on the punter

10/11/2012 12:26:55 PM

yeah, beat Georgia Tech, who, with their shitty system, put up over 400 yards and 38 offensive points before giving up 2 TDs in the last minute to make it look close.

RUSSEL WILSON DON'T PLAY DEFENSE SON (which, with RW's play, was a big reason why NCSU beat GT in 2010 - they held GT to just 4 3rd down conversions and forced a punt and 3 turnover on downs in GT's last 5 possessions while yielding just 61 yards after GT made it a 3 point game in the 4th)

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 12:33 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 12:28:26 PM

Quote :

"to be fair TOB would probably also have an ACC title if he hadnt kicked his best player off the team in 2011. Can't hold that against him, abitrary rules have to be enforced arbitrarily."

Who did he kick off the team? RW requested a release. Funny how you can't remember facts.

As for "arbitrarily enforcing rules," what is arbitrary about "whoever doesn't come to practice doesn't start"? Are there any other players on the team who are starting that didn't practice with the team? Please, tell us about these guys... If anything, letting RW do whatever the hell he wanted because he was RW would be "arbitrary", you trolling idiot.

10/11/2012 12:42:39 PM

PJ's focuses all his attention and recruiting on offense. His whole thing is his damn triple option and that is all he is known for. Therefore it affects his ability to recruit good defensive players as the recruits know the defense is 2nd fiddle.

Also I disagree with your statement about the defense practicing against the option making them better. Scout teams can try and pretend to mimic a pro or spread offense, but they are not going to fully replicate it to the extent that really challenges the GT defense enough in practice.

Regardless the results speak for themselves. PJ is a lame duck and you need to just admit that State was lucky to not have hired him.

10/11/2012 12:47:18 PM

Quote :

"Therefore it affects his ability to recruit good defensive players as the recruits know the defense is 2nd fiddle. "

you're lucky that wstcoastwolf posted on this page, otherwise that would be, without a doubt, the dumbest that I've ever read pertaining to this whole issue

I'd feel much better with a HC who is a mediocre defense away from winning his division again versus a coach who, with everything falling perfectly into place on both sides of the ball, achieved a 3rd place finish as his best year ever.

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 12:58 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 12:54:51 PM

Technically, TOB's best year was when he won the Big East...and while a shitty conference, it probably compared pretty well to the shitty state of the ACC the past couple of years.

10/11/2012 1:02:00 PM

^^ Yep cause defensive players are lining up to play in that vaunted GT defense for a coach that runs a gimmick offense as his calling card. Give it up dude. Why exactly do you have a boner for PJ anyway?

10/11/2012 1:10:02 PM

^^you know what I mean - his best year at NC State. who gives a shit about his time at BC?

and I have a "hard on" for Johnson because he is, without question, a better coach than Tom O'Brien. the fact that standards have been lowered so much here that myopic NC State fans can't see that makes me

people LOVE to point to this platitude about gailey's recruits and blah blah blah. the fact is that the defense Johnson had the year they won the ACC title was mediocre (mid 50's in total and scoring). johnson doesn't need world beaters on defense. he needs guys who can be a top 60 defense. that isn't asking much at all.

I hope to God that this is the year TOB gets state over the hump. the team controls their own destiny right now. but I just have no faith in him to do better than falling short of expectations. I'm going to the maryland game this year and will not be at all shocked if state loses. and that's sad.

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 1:24 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 1:13:12 PM

you can't seriously believe that.

TOB is a slightly better than mediocre coach. His biggest issue is an inability to recruit at a high enough level to compete for championships.

PJ runs an ancient, antiquated offense that is so horrible that few want to watch, much less play in it. You can't argue that recruiting has taken a nose dive since the Gailey era-- even worse so than TOB.

and like they say, it's not about the X's and O's, it's the jimmys and joes.

10/11/2012 1:22:34 PM

I'm taking a beating in this thread. In my defense, I never said his offense doesn't work. It's a hard play to defend so he does it over and over with a wrinkle here or there. I just thought it was ironic that in his statement on firing the defensive coordinator, he talked about how he was just doing the same thing over and over.

10/11/2012 1:24:56 PM

when you do the same thing over and over and average 7 yards a play, you stick with it.

when you do the same thing over and over and give up 40 points a game, you make a change

10/11/2012 1:26:17 PM

Quote :

"You can't argue that recruiting has taken a nose dive since the Gailey era-- even worse so than TOB. "

Scout.com rankings

2003: NCSU 9th, GT 34th
2004: NCSU 20th, GT 35th
2005: NCSU 23rd, GT 48th
2006: NCSU 42nd, GT 49th
2007: NCSU 60th, GT 15th
2008: NCSU 29th, GT 37th
2009: NCSU 39th, GT 32nd
2010: NCSU 47th, GT 41st
2011: NCSU 74th, GT 44th
2012: NCSU 61st, GT 59th

GT average under Gailey (2003-2007): 36th
GT average under Johnson (2008-2012): 42nd
Dropped 7 spots

NCSU average under Amato (2003-2006): 31st
GT Average under TOB (2007-2012): 52nd
Dropped 21 spots

Anything else you want me to slap you on the dick about, bobby? like I said...platitudes

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 1:36:27 PM

Quote :

"you know what I mean - his best year at NC State. who gives a shit about his time at BC?"

Because it proved he can consistently win at a BCS school...something Johnson is struggling to do right.

Fact is that Gailey left Johnson with bad-asses on offense (Nesbit, Thomas, Dwyer, etc.) and a decent defense. Johnson won with Gailey's guys and is starting to fail with his guys. He's the head coach, so he's responsible for defense too.

TOB was left with a shit-show by Amato (his two worst classes in his tenure). And not just rankings wise...Amato was horrible at recruiting in the trenches. Our o-line recruiting was shitty as was our depth at the D-line. He would sign a few superstars, but our 2nd and 3rd strings blew.

Now with all of his players, we're seeing 8 and 9-win seasons. Something Johnson won't be seeing at Tech anymore with this trend continuing.

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 1:53 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 1:52:37 PM

So what i hear you saying is....

Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble TOB rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble Paul Johnson rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble Recruiting rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble Defense rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble Offense rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble Winning rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble

Did I sum that up well enough?

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 2:02 PM. Reason : Oh yea, and who gives a shit? It's fucking Georgia Tech. Fuck 'em]

10/11/2012 1:59:53 PM

do you really think you summed anything up?

10/11/2012 2:02:29 PM

yay, my post isn't dumbest anymore

10/11/2012 2:56:20 PM

Quote :

" He's the head coach, so he's responsible for defense too."

you're damn straight he's responsible for defense - an issue on which I have given him no quarter. I thought that in year 3 groh would get it turned around, but it's clear he didn't.

Quote :

"Fact is that Gailey left Johnson with bad-asses on offense (Nesbit, Thomas, Dwyer, etc.)"

since it's clear you've never looked at actual statistics and instead are offering up more bullshit, let's compare last year's offense to the 2009 ACC title offense (you know, with all the "badass" guys he didn't recruit) 2011 had:

more yards per game: 459 vs. 422
more points per game: 37.8 vs. 33.8
more rushing yards per game: 331 vs. 295
more yards per carry: 6.21 vs. 5.22
higher QB rating: 162.26 vs. 149.56
slightly less yards per pass attempt: 10.39 vs. 10.56

WHAT A HORRIBLE TREND THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED WITH "HIS GUYS"

you guys can feel free to talk all the shit you want about the defense. johnson deserves every single bit of it. but too many ignorant fucks in this thread are talking about "gimmick offenses" and shit that doesn't work and OMG recruiting was so different. and I love it, because it's like playing teeball. people talking out their ass is only slightly less pleasurable than the fact that this whole thread started because someone was pissy about me calling out tenuta and archer

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 3:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 3:22:58 PM

What about the offense the other years? Just curious, because you've obviously done some research. Just wondering if you're stat pickin.

Also gotta score more when your opponent is scoring more. ACC defenses have sucked ass these past two years as well. Georgia Tech has run up scores against Miami and Clemson...two of the worst defenses in the ACC...with Virginia and Vtech not being too far behind (and only getting 17 on Tech...the best of the group).

I've also never seen you address the fact that they almost always lose their bowl games and games against teams that have more than one week to prepare.

10/11/2012 3:33:58 PM

2008 was behing 2009 in every category I listed, except yards per carry (5.55 vs. 5.52), making it worse than 2011 in every category.

2010, the year when all the recruits graduated, was down across the board. that was Johnson's only losing season (6-7)

so far, this year the offense is better than 2009 and 2011 in terms of points per game, yards per game, yards per play, QB rating, yards per carry, and rushing yards

it is slightly behind in yards per pass attempt (10.39 vs. 10.56)

in other words, with his own guys, and not the "badasses" he was left by gailey, his offenses, after sputtering a little in 2010, when it was STILL the #1 rush offense and 37th over all, have only gotten better and more potent

the bowl game issue is meh - he played Iowa in the Orange Bowl and LSU in the Chic Fil A bowl. he played an AF team that rush the same offense. really the only bad loss of the group was Utah, and that was just another mark in groh's terrible defensive performance quiver.

i've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd rather lose the orange bowl than win the belk bowl.

and the thing with time to prepare - look at the teams they've played with time to prepare. i think the quality of those teams will explain that better than "omg they solve the offense."

10/11/2012 3:52:06 PM

Quote :

"look at the teams they've played with time to prepare. i think the quality of those teams will explain that better than "omg they solve the offense.""

Middle Tennessee State had two weeks to prepare.

Just sayin....

10/11/2012 3:58:01 PM

MTSU is pretty awesome.

10/11/2012 4:11:35 PM

I know this thread is just a giant troll thread and people saying dumb shit to piss someone off, but anyone who actually calls what PJ runs a "gimmick" offense either doesn't understand the definition of the word gimmick or has no historical perspective of not just college football but football in general.

10/11/2012 4:38:43 PM

Does anyone know PJ's record against teams that have had more than a week to prepare for his offense?

That's a serious question, and I would like to know the answer without doing any actual research on my own.

Challenge posed, internet.

10/11/2012 4:45:30 PM

as far as i can tell, goalielax is simply navy's version of ncstatetke...following a coach rather than a team

does that about sum it up?

10/11/2012 4:46:52 PM

I don't think I've ever called it a gimmick offense.

I still don't like it and I still don't think a team that runs it can consistently win at a high level and I think Georgia Tech is proving that. He now has a team that is completely full of his players (offense and defense), and he's having his shittiest year yet and just got crushed by Middle Tennessee State.

You can throw out stats all you want, but he's still losing right now (had an average year least year and a shitty one the year before that).

He can't beat really good teams and teams that have more than a week to prepare.

10/11/2012 4:58:15 PM

Quote :

"Does anyone know PJ's record against teams that have had more than a week to prepare for his offense?"

I believe he is 1-7 against ACC teams with more than a week to prepare. Of course, the dirty secret the people who like to push that narrative don't like to tell you is that the combined record of those 7 teams ended up being 58-28. this year's loss to VT is by far the worst loss of them all (OMGTREND) given VT's 2-4 record. the other schools (and their records) were:

2010 UNC (8-5)
2009 Miami (9-4)
2010 NC State (9-4)
2010 VT (11-3)
2011 UVA (8-5)
2011 VT (11-3)
2012 VT (2-4)

the last four of those losses have been by 7, 3, 9, and 3 points.

GT has lost 2 out of conference games to teams with more than 2 weeks to prepare - MTSU this year and UGA in 2010

Oh, and during the same time period, TOB has...drumroll please...seven losses against teams with more than a week to prepare. OMG OFFENSE SOLVED!!! seriously, it's time to bury that canard as 1) most teams benefit from extra time between games and 2) the quality of opponent makes a difference

Quote :

"had an average year least year and a shitty one the year before that"

amusing that in his "average" year he beat TOB and finished with the same record as NC State (a record that was cause for celebration in these parts). and his "shitty one" ended up with a bowl game.

[Edited on October 11, 2012 at 7:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2012 7:07:58 PM

Well no shit...we were coming off shitty seasons and your boy was coming from a conference championship. And you still finished with a sub-500 record in that shitty year. Bowl games are a dime a dozen...especially when you're the last one in your conference to pick up one.

GT is trending down as Paul Johnson gets in his players.

State is trending up as TOB gets his in. (well, depending on how we finish this year)

10/11/2012 7:41:09 PM

He has done a good job in the local Atlanta press of making it sound like he is only responsible for the offense

10/11/2012 8:34:47 PM

Quote :

" seriously, it's time to bury that canard as 1) most teams benefit from extra time between games and 2) the quality of opponent makes a difference"

Right, but his bowl record is pretty bad as well, while other coaches like O'Brien don't fare as poorly when prepping for the postseason. His bowl record at Navy was pretty paltry, with wins coming off of very weak opponents (New Mexico State and Colorado State).

And you also only gave me the ACC record, rather than his total record (not saying you have to provide me with the rest, but that you selected a small sample). So maybe his record against teams coming off the bye is average compared to his peers, maybe it isn't (I honestly don't know), but when you factor in his poor bowl performance, there's a case to be made.

So I still think there is some validity to the criticism of him doing badly when his opponents have more time to prep for the option. I agree with point 1, but point 2 seems pretty weak as most teams face "quality opponents" after the bye if they're in a decent conference.

10/11/2012 9:52:00 PM

set em up for page 3 ----------------->

10/11/2012 10:24:20 PM